Quit Counting Outs UTH!!

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: unJon

Maybe I’m crazy but I hate thinking of the issue as 21 outs. I prefer to think of it as the rank of my kicker.

Unpaired board (no four straight or flush):

Play K high kicker in my hand if no A or K on board. Play Q high kicker in hand if A or K on board. Play J if both A and K on board.

In other words, a K in my hand is always playable. A Q or J is playable if there are As and Ka on the board.

Pairs board (no four straight or flush):

Play a Q high kicker if no A or K on board. Play J kicker if A or K or Q on board. Play T kicker if two of A, K, Q on board (pair of something doesn’t count as two of them).
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Thank You!

I think it is a very natural progression to go from counting the outs to realizing you can at least seldom count the outs. Or, if I can flatter myself to think anyone likes my charts, use charts instead for those seldom times you do ...

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I play UTH many hours a week thus it's rare I find myself in a position where I truly need to count the outs. However, when I do it's a quick and easy process. Overall, I think learning how to count outs is much simpler for an average player and easier to retain than trying to remember your chart.

Adding in, I've taught many people how to count outs right at the table. They typically take to it pretty well. They're generally slow at first but quicker as they move along.

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

I play UTH many hours a week thus it's rare I find myself in a position where I truly need to count the outs. However, when I do it's a quick and easy process. Overall, I think learning how to count outs is much simpler for an average player and easier to retain than trying to remember your chart.
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thanks for the input, I'll respond.

Quote:

I play UTH many hours a week thus it's rare I find myself in a position where I truly need to count the outs

did you mean to say something like "I play UTH many hours a week but I find it rare ... where I truly need to count the outs" If that's what you meant, I agree it's rare enough, but it happens, and you can either count the outs or use a chart. I don't think you mean to say no one should bother with it when Grosjean, Wizard, How, and others undoubtedly, say it is worth it.

As for chart one, surely everyone who plays much memorizes the first situation, 'rainbow board and player's kicker possibly could win'. Going with King always, and sometimes Queen or Jack is then done without counting outs. So then it is a matter of whether you want to memorize more, count outs, or use a chart. I just want memorization to come or not, then have a chart which I will either have my printer make, or make one with index cards. Some familiarization will allow abbreviations, omissions, and smaller size.

I probably wouldn't have bothered with all this, though, if it weren't for chart 2. Since the board has to pretty much contain only high cards in the critical places, I think it is really a neat thing to work with. Full memorization would be a trial for me, but again this can be printed or put on the back of an index card, shortening recommended. Note I get a lot of pushback, so I have learned not to do this shortening for you ... I need to have clarity first.

Note too a simpler strategy than shown can be memorized for chart 2, as basically if all that's in a simple strategy is rejecting a 9-card and where, you won't cost yourself much in EV.

So I really wanted to show this chart. As for using it, YMMV

PS: the title of this thread was intentionally an eyebrow raiser.

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

I play UTH many hours a week thus it's rare I find myself in a position where I truly need to count the outs. However, when I do it's a quick and easy process. Overall, I think learning how to count outs is much simpler for an average player and easier to retain than trying to remember your chart.
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thanks for the input, I'll respond.

Quote:

I play UTH many hours a week thus it's rare I find myself in a position where I truly need to count the outs

did you mean to say something like "I play UTH many hours a week but I find it rare ... where I truly need to count the outs" If that's what you meant, I agree it's rare enough, but it happens, and you can either count the outs or use a chart. I don't think you mean to say no one should bother with it when Grosjean, Wizard, How, and others undoubtedly, say it is worth it.

As for chart one, surely everyone who plays much memorizes the first situation, 'rainbow board and player's kicker possibly could win'. Going with King always, and sometimes Queen or Jack is then done without counting outs. So then it is a matter of whether you want to memorize more, count outs, or use a chart. I just want memorization to come or not, then have a chart which I will either have my printer make, or make one with index cards. Some familiarization will allow abbreviations, omissions, and smaller size.

I probably wouldn't have bothered with all this, though, if it weren't for chart 2. Since the board has to pretty much contain only high cards in the critical places, I think it is really a neat thing to work with. Full memorization would be a trial for me, but again this can be printed or put on the back of an index card, shortening recommended. Note I get a lot of pushback, so I have learned not to do this shortening for you ... I need to have clarity first.

Note too a simpler strategy than shown can be memorized for chart 2, as basically if all that's in a simple strategy is rejecting a 9-card and where, you won't cost yourself much in EV.

So I really wanted to show this chart. As for using it, YMMV

PS: the title of this thread was intentionally an eyebrow raiser.
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No, I meant what I said. I play so frequently that I no longer need to count the outs in most situations because I've internalized the correct play from many times counting the outs previously for whatever the given situation. Rarely do I need to stop and actually count the outs. Even when I do it is done very quickly. Much quicker than consulting a chart would be. Clearly I wasn't saying that no one should count outs when I went on to say I've taught many people to do it and that it's easier than using your charts.

Quote: ThisIsMyJam

No, I meant what I said. I play so frequently that I no longer need to count the outs in most situations because I've internalized the correct play from many times counting the outs previously for whatever the given situation. Rarely do I need to stop and actually count the outs. Even when I do it is done very quickly. Much quicker than consulting a chart would be. Clearly I wasn't saying that no one should count outs when I went on to say I've taught many people to do it and that it's easier than using your charts.
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When I get this response, which goes for Mission and Wizard as well, I wonder just how much differently we do it.

When encountering Trips on the board, and all a player has is a 10-card kicker that you'd play if there aren't 21+ outs, I, having played this often enough to not need the chart either, look for A, K, Q, and J on the board. If I see, say, only an ace, then I say to myself, "K,Q, and J are missing, that's 3 cards, I bet". The 'counters' make it sound like they do the same but take the extra steps of saying this to themselves: "I count the board starting with 7 outs, King makes 11, Queen makes 15, and Jack makes 19, so I bet" . Then you guys crack open a beer and celebrate, "that was easier, by God I don't need no stinking chart. " ??

For a three-of-a-kind or four-of-a-kind board, the important part is to compare the ranks of your kicker and the board kicker. If yours is higher, you may raise even if the dealer has a lot more outs. Otherwise, just stick to 18 outs.

Quote: aceside

For a three-of-a-kind or four-of-a-kind board, the important part is to compare the ranks of your kicker and the board kicker.

that is step one

Quote:

If yours is higher, you may raise even if the dealer has a lot more outs.

Even with the 4OAK, Grosjean says you need a 7-card or higher. You can have a lot of outs with a board 4-OAK, if your kicker may be good, true

Quote:

Otherwise, just stick to 18 outs.

on this we agree, if with a player kicker that can't win, the other situation

I think you are wrong, or maybe it's just not clear to me what you mean, with the situation 'player kicker better than board kicker' ,Trips on the board, and "you may raise even if the dealer has a lot more outs". I find that only 3 cards can be missing outranking your kicker. That means a 9-card player kicker, or lower, always means fold, even if the Trips are higher in rank. Can you give an example with any lower player kicker that shows me wrong?
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I think you are right. For a trips board, you need a player 4th nut kicker to call 1x, or a 3rd nut board kicker to call.

Well, here it is. I think I am through with any edits, except sometimes something for better clarity hits me. So it is possible to see some edit for better clarity in the future, and remember that will be at the blogpost as after a time I can't edit here.

I have to be concerned with that. I am Joe Blow in the world of gambling, and here am often clowning, sounding like a Hic, and all kinds of stuff, yes perhaps even Odious at times. I am not a wizard or a Grosjean. For the latter person's strategy card, some parts were indecipherable for me for a while, if you have the card you probably know what I mean. He can get away with that, I can't. So it means the full charts are too big as is, you need to make some simplifications if you are going to make your own strategy card. Bottom, for what I'll likely do.

Player Kicker in Play	Permissible Missing Cards Outranking Kicker
Unpaired Board	One Card Can Be Missing, Bet 1x
Board has One Pair	2 Cards Can Be Missing, ditto
Board has Trips	3 Cards Can Be Missing, ditto
Board = Two Pair, Fifth Card Makes Dealer Outs	3 Cards Can Be Missing, ditto
Board has Two Pair, Fifth Card Lower in Rank	4 Cards Can Be Missing, ditto
Board has 4 OAK	play 7-card or better player kicker, ditto

Player Kicker Can’t Win	Action Indicated
The board doesn't have a pair or better	No Pair means No Play, instant fold
Board Has One Pair	A 9-card or lower in the other two cards means instant fold a 10-card there also is a fold UNLESS ALL other 4 cards are higher Play All Others
Board has 2 pair with the Fifth card making dealer outs.	A 10-card or lower as the fifth card means instant fold. Play a Jack Fifth Card if it is Middle Value Play all Queen or better 5th Cards
Board has two pair, AND fifth board card lowest in rank	An 8-card or lower anywhere on the board is an instant fold. Play all that have higher fifth cards
Board has Trips	A 9-card or lower within the 2 other cards is an instant fold A 10-card there is a fold unless ALL other 4 cards are higher Play All Others
Board has 4 OAK	An 8-card or lower as the 5th card is an instant fold A 9-card as the fifth card is a fold UNLESS the 4 board cards are higher Play All Others

>>>

My choice for a strategy card with abbreviations and memorized parts omitted

Kicker in Play	# Cards
Bd Trips/2 pair 7-O	3 Cards
Bd 2 Pair 4-O	4-O=4 cards
Bd 4 OAK	play 7-card+

in the above, don't need to know what I'm looking for or what to do. 7-0 or 4-O indicates the type of 2 pair board by initial outs. 4-O=4 cards is a mnemonic

Kicker Gaffed	Action
Bd = One Pair	Pert 9-card = fold 10-card unless all higher
Bd 2 pair 7-O	Pert 10-card = fold. Play Pert Jack if Middle Val Play all Pert Queen+
Bd 2 pair 4-O	8-card anywhere=fold. Play all higher Perts
Board = Trips	9-card=fold 10-card unless ALL other higher Play All Others
Bd = 4 OAK	Pert 8-card = fold 9-card UNLESS all 4 higher Play All Others

although in some ways easier table, I don't have it memorized as well. Leaving what to do in there for now. I know what 4 I'm talking about in the 4-OAK section. Pert means Pertinent