odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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February 2nd, 2023 at 8:04:48 AM permalink
I’m spending some time trying to improve my UTH play in some weak areas. For Grosjean, I only have a strategy card, which is a little too simple for the flop/2x decision; of course his full strategy just doesn’t fit I’m sure. So I go then to Steven How when I get a puzzling correction from the Wizard’s trainer, and usually wind up with a headache. So recently I searched the internet for what might be out there in the Ether besides How and the Wizard. These tend to be quite simple, which is OK, but not helpful for the problem.

To be sure, Mr. How’s strategy generally is too much for me. It is very complex compared to the Grosjean strategy on the business size strategy card that’s out there, while to have How’s at the table, you need to bring a small page . Plus it is full of jargon that puts me off, though ymmv. To be fair, everyone who has tried to write about UTH, that I have come across, falls into a difficulty of making themselves clear, and Grosjean’s strategy has the same problem. I know some of my posts I have made in the past have been, well, judged impenetrable. The Wizard maybe comes the closest to keeping his strategy easily accessible, though to do so it is a simple strategy. In particular the Wizard strategy should have better advice for when you judge if the community cards are likely the best hand for dealer and player both, making a push likely.* He has you count the outs, without first making a judgement about whether you ‘play the board’* or not, which in my view could still belong in a simple strategy.

I think if you want to go beyond a simple strategy, you have to decide if you are going to use How’s [see link] or Grosjean’s, it’s too much to delve into both. In the latter case I notice you can today get a paperback “beyond counting” by Grosjean for $700 at Amazon-other-sellers, or you can just get a strategy card like I did from lasvegasadvisors.com.

How strategy, https://discountgambling.net/ultimate-texas-holdem/

*Look at all the words I had to use to describe this, illustrating the problem. So this leads to jargon usage. Grosjean and How both use “play the board” for this, but in this case I wanted to be more clear


I couldn’t help but notice that the river/1X decision advice was pretty bad in these sites that come up now, so here are my ratings and comments in italics,

_

MOST PASSABLE

Now, in this round according to the strategy for ultimate Texas Hold'em Poker the bet is usually 1X the stake or fold. Since this is the last round in Texas Hold'em poker players have a fair chance of turning the game in their favor if they bet according to the best strategy for ultimate Texas Hold'em: note never uses ‘UTH” ; needs to get his word count up!

Place a bet in this round only if you have a hidden pair (A hidden pair usually consists of one community card and one whole card) or anything better.

As per strategy ultimate Texas Holdem you must definitely place a bet in this round if the dealer has less than 21 outs to beat you.Apart from the above-stated strategy for ultimate Texas Holdem, if you get anything else then you must fold your hand immediately.

Doesn’t explain how to count the outs, and skips the ‘play the board’ scenario



PRETTY BAD

River strategy can be particularly tricky. It is easy to memorize what to do but not always easy to make the optimal play in real-time.

Place a bet of equal to your Ante bet if you have a hidden pair or better or the dealer has less than 21 outs to beat you. After some practice, determining how many outs the dealer has to beat you will become more second nature but take your time at first as it’s your money and the game typically doesn’t have a time limit with the exception of some multiplayer online games.

Doesn’t explain how to count the outs, and skips the ‘play the board’ scenario. I’ll give only a few demerits for the ‘second nature’ bit, which is true enough if kind of odd as advice, as it can lead to bad play



NEXT TO WORST



Turn and River Strategy

At this point, you’ll only raise if you have a pair with one of your cards in the hole.

You’ll also raise most of the time if you have a hand where you think you can win. At this point, you should count the number of outs the dealer has.

If the dealer has a lot of cards that will give her the winning hand, you should fold. And, by a lot, I mean 20+ cards that would cause her to have the better hand

Skips the ‘play the board’ scenario. Seems to want to emphasize how counting the outs is hard, so I suspect he himself does not. I don’t see how you can leave it at that, he doesn’t get into any shortcuts, like how a King kicker is most always played



WORST

Raising becomes a lot more seldom once you get past the flop. You’re only going to raise on a pair or better with one of your cards in the hole. Now, you have to think about the different hands that the dealer could potentially have.

Warning:If the cards that make up the flop, turn, and river create a lot of possible winning hands for the dealer, you should fold. Make sure that you’re considering all the possible combinations they could have.

Terrifies the newbie with a big mysterious warning. Apparently doesn’t know about counting the outs himself, judges it too difficult to write about, or is confident the reader is a simpleton

Last edited by: odiousgambit on Feb 2, 2023
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
rsactuary
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February 2nd, 2023 at 8:53:31 AM permalink
For the record, I've found that Wiz's trainer gives advice that differs from his tables on occasion.
Mission146
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rsactuaryaceside
February 2nd, 2023 at 9:11:33 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

For the record, I've found that Wiz's trainer gives advice that differs from his tables on occasion.
link to original post



I would assume that is because the trainer does an EV calculation whereas the tables are a more simplified strategy.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
rsactuary
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Mission146
February 2nd, 2023 at 9:25:25 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Quote: rsactuary

For the record, I've found that Wiz's trainer gives advice that differs from his tables on occasion.
link to original post



I would assume that is because the trainer does an EV calculation whereas the tables are a more simplified strategy.
link to original post



While that makes sense, I did get some that I thought were non-sensical, but maybe I missed something.
Mission146
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February 2nd, 2023 at 9:31:31 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

Quote: Mission146

Quote: rsactuary

For the record, I've found that Wiz's trainer gives advice that differs from his tables on occasion.
link to original post



I would assume that is because the trainer does an EV calculation whereas the tables are a more simplified strategy.
link to original post



While that makes sense, I did get some that I thought were non-sensical, but maybe I missed something.
link to original post



I'd be curious if you happen to remember one specifically.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
rsactuary
rsactuary
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February 2nd, 2023 at 9:44:27 AM permalink
I don't. It happened several times just this past weekend. I also get some sort of weird connection error, even though I'm clearly connected and playing.
odiousgambit
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Mission146
February 2nd, 2023 at 9:58:05 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

I don't. It happened several times just this past weekend. I also get some sort of weird connection error, even though I'm clearly connected and playing.
link to original post

if you get the connection error, which I do sometimes too [satellite internet], then the trainer may give bad advice for the flop/2x decision ... and it can be clear as day the advice is wrong
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
rsactuary
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Mission146
February 2nd, 2023 at 10:22:45 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: rsactuary

I don't. It happened several times just this past weekend. I also get some sort of weird connection error, even though I'm clearly connected and playing.
link to original post

if you get the connection error, which I do sometimes too [satellite internet], then the trainer may give bad advice for the flop/2x decision ... and it can be clear as day the advice is wrong
link to original post



Ah.. that might be it.. although I'm using fiber, not satellite.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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Mission146
February 2nd, 2023 at 10:29:32 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

Ah.. that might be it.. although I'm using fiber, not satellite.
link to original post

Odd what might be going on there! Is the 'connection error' message actually a pop-up that declares a problem, but not the actual problem?

Ironically, the flop/2x is now where I need the most help.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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February 3rd, 2023 at 4:22:07 AM permalink
Found an even worse strategy, which is actually awful for all 3 decision points, posted by someone who didn't even check with an authoritative analysis, but posted instead his own method of play based, I guess, on his poker playing instincts. It is a glimpse inside the logic behind the way most players play, turning UTH into a 5% or so HE game, or worse.

My comments in italics, preceded by elipses

If there is one thing to avoid [on the pre-flop], it is the 3x bet.

… Starts out good!

Unless you are down to your last few chips, the 3x bet is not a feasible wager if you have a strong or mid-high range. … But the ‘if’ signals trouble ahead

Pocket hands that are above 10 are worth the 4x play bet wager. … above 10? does he mean pocket pair of 10s or better? If so he seems to think he isn’t at risk of losing ante/blind bets and just will bet when he has a smoking hot hand. Oh, wait, maybe this is when he bets 3x, when he has something like a pair of 9s

Chances are high for a three-of-a-kind or two-pair hand when you reach the showdown phase. Even if the dealer has a pair, your range should give you an advantage over your opponent's hand. … yep, I think you’ll win a lot of these hands

Suited connectors are your friends during this betting round. Your bare minimum would be jacks with 8, 9, and 10's. This includes J♠9♠ or 8♣J♣. Even if you are unable to form a straight or flush, you can still achieve a jack or mid-range pair to win against the dealer. … So bet King/Queen *suited* and the Jack as shown. Not quite correct! especially since I suppose we are to bet 3x, if 4x is only for a pair of 10s or better

For other hands that do not have an ace, check the pre-flop … Umm, are you saying an Ace doesn’t have to be suited? I assume the Ace is 3x, suited or not

_

During [the flop/2x] betting round, you have most of the available information that can help you determine your final hand outcome since the flop is on the table. If you happen to have a three-of-a-kind or a top two pair card, such as a K♥7♣ 7♠8♦K♦, wagering 2x your ante is feasible with these ranges. … Feasible. Do you or don’t you?

Be wary of pairs when this is the only hand you have on the post-flop. Chances are high for the dealer to have a top-ranking pair or even a two-pair when you reach the showdown phase. Only raise when you have at least pocket aces or kings. … That’s his emphasis. Has he ever played this game? If you have pocket aces/kings you’ve already bet them, no? So he means when you make a pair on the flop? I think I’d be betting lower pairs than aces/kings even if I had never seen anybody’s strategy

Choose the 2x bet when you already have a flush or straight on the post-flop. Raising is also a profitable move if you are missing one out to form an open-ended straight or a backdoor flush. … His emphasis again. Oddly, the better strategies have conditions for betting these. He just doesn’t get anything right

If you are missing one out for a gutshot straight, check this round and move on to the last betting round.

_

With the turn and river card dealt on the table, you have every information you need to know your current standing. Raise if you have a mid-to-high range straight or flush such as a 7♥9♠ 10♦2♥J♦8♣A♥. … Only mid-to-high? Well I think after taking this advice and folding his low straights, and seeing the consequences, the player is going to maybe, just maybe, think about not quite playing this tight.

Always consider what your opponent might have based on the community cards to know if you should raise your pair. If you have a jack pair, are their queens, kings, or aces on the board that allow the dealer to form a better pair? Is there a possible straight or flush hand on the board that requires only one out? Knowing the odds of the dealer forming a certain hand lets you raise a winning pair. … I think we can see he just wants us to play too tight. He doesn’t seem to realize he’s only up against one hand, one that the dealer can’t fold if it sucks. Up against 6-7 players who can fold bad hands, maybe some of this would make sense.



I definitely enjoy bashing the bad advice on the internet. These are put out there by nefarious operators for the most part, who are just trying to attract browsers who might be tempted to click on the links to real betting. It’s one way I sympathize with people who come here with a lot of bad advice under their belts. There’s a lot of bad advice out there! I know I would flatter myself quite excessively to think I might be doing some good exposing it, but I enjoy it anyway.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
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