Question Regarding Craps: Was this handled LEGALLY?!

I think I've read something to this effect before, but I wanted to question the legality of it in the casino..I got my answer, however I'd like to see what you all think (Including you Wizard)
I was playing craps the other night, and it was just me playing. Now, this table is apparently the anti-christ, because they NEVER have a game on graveyard...EVER (I'm wondering why they even keep the table open WITH 3 dealers during graveyard)
So anyway, I was getting my butt kicked, and I decided I'd had enough. It was a $2 game, so I put $2 on the pass line, and rolled a 5-point. I proceeded to tell the dealers I was done shooting..it went something like this:
Me: I'm finished playing
Dealers: You can't leave, you've established a point and have a pass-line bet.
Me: I'm passing the dice, I no longer wish to shoot.
Dealers: There are no other players, you cannot pass the dice.
Me: I legally do not have to shoot the dice, however that bet must be legally resolved.
Dealers: We'll call the floor supervisor
Floor: You must shoot or you forfeit your bet.
Me: So you're telling me that the bet will not be resolved and it will be taken with no fair chance of winning or losing?
Floor: That's correct, if you do not shoot, you lose.
Me: OK, thank you (and I proceeded to walk off)

Was that legal? I was under the impression that if there were legal binding bets (pass/don't pass) that SOMEONE had to shoot, even if that meant the floor supervisor (or higher up, Casino Manager)

Interesting test. The concept was bandied around in a previous thread, but there is no "casino law" that everybody must follow. It's usually up to the discretion of the pit boss.

What casino was it? If the pit was acting like d**ks, no reason to keep them anonymous.

Yes it was legal. Since there were no other players, either you shoot of forfeit your bet like you were told. I have also never heard of any place where the casino employees could/would shoot the dice.

Why give the emplyees the employees a hard time?

Quote: teddys

Interesting test. The concept was bandied around in a previous thread, but there is no "casino law" that everybody must follow. It's usually up to the discretion of the pit boss.

What casino was it? If the pit was acting like d**ks, no reason to keep them anonymous.

Well, the particular floor supervisor has been 9/10 a dick to me, so I was hoping to get the Casino Manager involved...but it was his night off.
If it's up to the discretion of the pit boss, then isn't the entire game up to their discretion?
This begs the question, if the table had been jammed up, and I was on a hot roll, and I no longer wished to shoot the dice, and EVERYONE ELSE didn't want to shoot, would they have taken ALL of our money? Or would we even have a legal choice in the matter?

Quote: Fleaswatter

Why give the emplyees the employees a hard time?

I was not giving anyone a hard time, I was simply asking a legal question.

Similar story...

I was playing BJ years ago and there were 2 of us on the table. I was anchor and this woman was 1st base. She would agonize over every decision and most often made the wrong choice (one of these "I have a feeling" players). She kept standing on her hard 14, 15, 16's against a face and I of course would always hit mine. She made a comment once or twice about why I kept taking the dealer's bust card (when I'd make my hand and she'd lose) and although I ignored her for a good 30 minutes eventually I decided to mess with her a bit.

We were both dealt hard 14's and the dealer was showing a 10. She hemmed and hawed and after about 20 seconds waved it off. Action was on me and I looked at her and asked if she was sure that she didn't want a card. I told her I'd let her take one if she wanted it. She glared at me and said she knew it would be a small card and she wanted the dealer to have it. I told her that if it was indeed going to be a small card that I thought it would be a good idea for me to take it and make a hand. So, I asked the dealer what she thought. The dealer just stood there and didn't say a word. So, I just sat there and didn't act on my hand. I spent 15 minutes "making my decision" and by that time the floor was standing there telling me I had to hit or stand. I told him that just couldn't make up my mind. I told him that I was trying to figure out what the next card would be. Another 5 minutes. Then, the breaker came and tapped the dealer on the shoulder and no one knew what to do. The dealer couldn't leave, the player to my right was righteously steaming by now and the supervisor was doing his best no to laugh.

I finally felt bad for the dealers and surrendered my hand. The dealer took a 4 and a 6 and scooped up the lady's chips.

I wonder how long they would have let me just sit there being a d**k before forcing me to act?

As far as your craps scenario, I don't see how they can force you to surrender your bet. Nowhere is there a rule stating that you must roll (that I've ever seen) so I'd say the onus is on them to resolve it be getting those dice down the table.

The New Jersey regs (which are probably the most detailed w.r.t. game rules) don't say anything about the edge case where one person no longer wishes to shoot and nobody else picks up the dice. It's a good question for the state's GCB though. Why not ask? All their email addresses are online.

http://www.state.nj.us/casinos/actreg/reg/docs_chapter47/c47s01.pdf

see 19:47-1.11

Quote: TheNightfly

As far as your craps scenario, I don't see how they can force you to surrender your bet. Nowhere is there a rule stating that you must roll (that I've ever seen) so I'd say the onus is on them to resolve it be getting those dice down the table.

I equate it to the same as me picking up my bet in the middle of my roll and saying "Thank you, I no longer wish to play."

I think somebody (not Jerry, but someone with a similar attitude :)) posted that when they were challenged on the exact same issue, they just picked up their pass line bet and left. The pit said "You can't do that," and he said, "Watch me," and left.

Quote: TIMSPEED

I equate it to the same as me picking up my bet in the middle of my roll and saying "Thank you, I no longer wish to play."

In roulette, the dealer spins the wheel and the ball. In BJ they deal the cards. In craps, the player has the opportunity to hold and throw the dice. Where is it stated that the player must throw them? I'm not telling the dealer, "Thank you, I no longer wish to play" and then picking up my bet - I'm telling the dealer, "Thank you, I no longer wish to roll the dice, now resolve my bet". If there's no one else at the table I'd say the house had better find a way to get a number rolled. I could come up with all sorts of reasons why I'm not going to do it... "My arthritis is acting up and it's too painful" for example. So, If I'm the only one there at 3am and they want to close the table, they'd better roll those dice or my $5 passline bet is just going to sit there and they'll be paying 3 employees to stare at it.

I'm not saying I've done this or plan to do it but since the question was raised I'm just showing a scenario and asking what might be the outcome. I still don't see how they can force anyone to roll the dice and I certainly don't see how they can just confiscate my wager without resolving the bet.

I think what the casino did was legal. It would have been nice to give you a few minutes to find a volunteer to throw the dice, but not required of them. I would not let an employee throw. If I were the supervisor, and it wouldn't have broken any regulations, I would have offered you a fair surrender value of $1.33. Since the lowest coinage on the table was probably a quarter, I would have made it $1.25.

Regarding the indecisive blackjack player, I would gave given the player a 60-second notice to make a decision, or the dealer would assume you were standing. That is what the multi-player Internet casinos do, but they give you much less time. I have no idea what the regulations say about it, but probably nothing.

Quote: Wizard

Regarding the indecisive blackjack player, I would gave given the player a 60-second notice to make a decision, or the dealer would assume you were standing. That is what the multi-player Internet casinos do, but they give you much less time. I have no idea what the regulations say about it, but probably nothing.

I guess that's what this comes down to. There are no hard and fast rules regarding things like this - nothing posted anyway - and often the decision is made at the discretion of the supervisor. What irks me about this sort of thing is that you can come back the next day, find the same game with a different supervisor, be in the same situation and get an entirely different ruling. It happens in poker all the time.

Quote: TIMSPEED

I equate it to the same as me picking up my bet in the middle of my roll and saying "Thank you, I no longer wish to play."

Except a Passline bet is a contract bet, that's up until resolved. As you get the best of it before the point is established, walking away with your money would be akin to trying to take your money back on the Bears after they were down 33-0 at half time.

I believe Superrick did something like that when he found the washboards under the felt at the 4 Queens.

They'll happily let you take your don't pass bet down and walk out (see posts in the past about players thinking that to their advantage).

Quote: Wizard

If I were the supervisor, and it wouldn't have broken any regulations, I would have offered you a fair surrender value of $1.33. Since the lowest coinage on the table was probably a quarter, I would have made it $1.25.

Oh, ha. Hahahahaha. Only in the Wizard's world do people have such math aptitude. If only it were so!

I wonder how many supervisors have taken the Wizard's gaming math class at UNLV?

Quote: TheNightfly

There are no hard and fast rules regarding things like this - nothing posted anyway - and often the decision is made at the discretion of the supervisor.

NO, I think there are hard rules about this type of play.
At the Craps table there rarely are any rules of the game posted. When I first started dealing dice in the early 70s in Vegas, new players would always question the rules of the game and ask why they are not posted. Many times the supervisor would have to explain the rules about picking up a pass line bet if the shooter did not want to shoot the dice any more when they were the only player at the table.
They always finished their hand.

These are not only casino rules but my understanding, Nevada Gaming rules.
I knew a few players that would try the old "I have to run to catch my bus" line after making a large pass line bet, then wanting to stop playing and leave after a point was established.
They had the advantage first, now they want the casino not to have the advantage.
Contract bets are contract bets.

Too much looking like the casino and the player are trying to cheat the rules if a casino allows a player to just leave and take their contract bet while refusing to shoot the dice, so the casino wants no part of even looking like they are cheating, even for a lousy $2 pass line bet.

Quote: Wizard

If I were the supervisor, and it wouldn't have broken any regulations, I would have offered you a fair surrender value of $1.33. Since the lowest coinage on the table was probably a quarter, I would have made it $1.25.

There are casino rules about craps contract bets that the supervisors must follow.
They would never, at least in Nevada, make a deal.

I've been a craps dealer forever and the players love me as a guy who is on their side.....but I agree with their call here.

Quote: TIMSPEED

Was that legal? I was under the impression that if there were legal binding bets (pass/don't pass) that SOMEONE had to shoot, even if that meant the floor supervisor (or higher up, Casino Manager)

Yes it was legal.


Where did you get your impression from?

Quote: appistappis

I've been a craps dealer forever and the players love me as a guy who is on their side.....but I agree with their call here.

The thing is, agreeing with a call, and a LEGAL call are two different things.
I could care less about the $2, I was just curious as to what the LEGAL response is...
Apparently, when you're in a casino, they can do whatever the fack they please to you, and you have to take it. End of Story.
Like Benny Binion once said "As long as I can have a dice table, I can make money."

Quote: TIMSPEED

Apparently, when you're in a casino, they can do whatever the fack they please to you, and you have to take it. End of Story.

I also agree with the call because it is a legal thing to do, Casinos have to follow rules of the game.
In Nevada Casinos, that is absolutely wrong. Casinos can NOT do whatever the fack they please, regardless of how you "feel".

Casinos have been and continue to be fined by Nevada Gaming for doing just that.
They have rules to follow and if they do not and someone brings it up to the proper authorities, they will be fined.

I worked at a Craps table that had the over and under 7 bet. The payout was 4:3 and max bet was $750. One night box allowed a high roller to bet more than the posted amount and within a week the boxman was suspended and the casino was fined big money.

It is when the casino does not follow the rules it gets them in trouble.
Where did you ever get the idea you could make a pass line bet, establish a point, then have a casino employee finish your hand?

Quote: TIMSPEED

Dealers: We'll call the floor supervisor
Floor: You must shoot or you forfeit your bet.

Perfect dealer and supervisor procedure.

Quote: TIMSPEED

Me: So you're telling me that the bet will not be resolved and it will be taken with no fair chance of winning or losing?
Floor: That's correct, if you do not shoot, you lose.
Me: OK, thank you (and I proceeded to walk off)

You are so wrong!
You had a 33% advantage on the come out roll of winning your $2 pass line bet! What more did you want???

What was your "real" reason for not wanting to finish the hand? It could have been a start to 10 winners in a row!

This may be slightly off-topic, but on the subject of regulation. 7winner and appistappis, please describe your experience with gaming commission personnel inspecting the craps table and dice.

I have never seen anyone from gaming comm near a table. I will, on my next shift see what our casino's policy on the above situation is...my opinion, you walk in a store, pay for an apple, take a bite out of it and then say I don't really want this apple, give me my money back doesn't wash.

Quote: TIMSPEED

Well, the particular floor supervisor has been 9/10 a dick to me, so I was hoping to get the Casino Manager involved...but it was his night off.
If it's up to the discretion of the pit boss, then isn't the entire game up to their discretion?

As the Devils advocate it sounds like you have a history of problems w them, why go back?
If it's the only game in town I can understand.


"I know it's crooked, but it's the only game in town."
-Canada Bill Jones

Quote: TIMSPEED

Floor: You must shoot or you forfeit your bet.

I would have said:

Well, I don't want to shoot. I'm leaving.
When you find somebody to shoot, make it a dealer bet. If it loses, it loses, but if it wins, it goes to the crew.


Bottom line: There are rules, but they may not be the same at all casinos. You can NOT get a clear answer here, unless that person knows the casino and the rules that apply.

I posted on another thread that a shooter made his point and then threw something like a 2, 3, 3, 12 and decided he had enough and left the table.

The only problem was that I was the only other player at the table and I had established 3 Don't Come bets. They wanted to return my bets and close the table. I refused to take down my bets.

They finally decided that even though I didn't have any money on the line, they would let me shoot the dice. I think I knocked down one of my Don't Come bets before I sevened out.

Has anyone ever seen someone toss the dice with no money on the line?

That's proper procedure, at least according to the NJ rules.