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unJon
unJon 
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:20:18 PM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

Quote: MDawg

Let's say that the house knew that a Blackjack game was to be one on one and only one card burned.



Wouldn't the house also need to know how many hands the player will play for each round, before the cards are shuffled?

The player would need to request a one-on-one game, not the house...correct?

Should a player request a private table, would the house establish how many hands he was permitted to play for each round, and insist that he agree, before the cards are shuffled, to play that same number of hands per round?

It's understood that they could insist, but I am asking if any casino would try something like that...before shuffling the cards?
link to original post



Do the conspiracy theorists only think you can do this with a shuffler but not a CSM? A CSM would eliminate some of the issues you raise.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
kewlj
kewlj
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:21:10 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

I don't like people like heatmap, kewlJ who come up with theory about "well this COULD happen." Get to the tables, play, and talk to me then.



MODERATORS: I object to this person invoking my name. Wizard in no uncertain terms told both of us not to address the other JUST yesterday.


I am hesitant but still willing to have a discussion about this topic, because I purchased and took possession of a shufflemaster machine used in blackjack play several years ago before passing it along (selling) to another AP, and I KNOW what it is capable of. And yes, it was a real machine, used in a real casino in another country.

The capability is there and that is all anyone need know.

And to coach belly, YES there are certain sequences that will allow the house to win more. These are easily figured out through a simulation program. For example, in blackjack two such sequences would be having aces clumped within a group of non 10 value cards. It need not even be all aces, just some. This would reduce the number of player blackjack which are paid at 3:2 and increase house advantage.

A second sequence would be clumps of 10 value cards. If such a clump were kept separate from aces, it favors the house. There would be lots of 20 vs 20 pushes but fewer blackjacks. Again anything resulting in fewer blackjacks increases the house edge significantly.

Now some of these things occur naturally in random shuffles, so every time you see a whole clump of 10 value come out it doesn't mean cheating, but the capability is there to create such a sequence. That isn't in question. Now you are just relying on the casino industry not to do so, because gaming is way overmatched in protecting against anything like this. I see no evidence they even attempt to regulate it. And it will only get worse with further technology advances.
kewlj
kewlj
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:21:40 PM permalink
duplicate
100xOdds
100xOdds
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:40:19 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Yes, understood. All of those factors, additionally besides that the player is allowed the final cut, would contribute further to making it not feasible for the House to try to stack the deck.
link to original post

it's different in ultimate texas holdem.
2 decks used. each deck is shuffled every time inbetween rounds. noone cuts the deck.

another computer system tracking your player's card says how many players at the table.
i think it's pretty easy to link the players card system to the shuffler to see exactly who has what cards.

thats why i randomly sit out every 15min or so to throw off the shuffler.
Last edited by: 100xOdds on Jan 28, 2022
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
coachbelly
coachbelly
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:44:30 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

And to coach belly, YES there are certain sequences that will allow the house to win more. These are easily figured out through a simulation program. For example, in blackjack two such sequences would be having aces clumped within a group of non 10 value cards. It need not even be all aces, just some. This would reduce the number of player blackjack which are paid at 3:2 and increase house advantage.



If such sequences are easily figured out, will you stipulate that they have been figured out, and are all known?

Do you know of any sequences that can be created to increase the house advantage, perhaps a sequence for a single deck that can be represented in a forum post?

I recall reading that an extreme negative count favors the player, which a clumped section of non-10s would represent when dealt out.

I'm wondering if clumping aces with non-10s will mitigate the lack of blackjacks by skewing the double-down opportunities, increasing the number of dealer stiffs, and actually favor the player.

Again, this should be known information, but I don't know it, so that's why I'm asking here.
kewlj
kewlj
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:47:51 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds


another computer system tracking your player's card says how many players at the table.
i think it's pretty easy to link the players card system to the shuffler to see exactly who has what cards.



I saw something like this mentioned yesterday. While certainly possible, it complicates things. Systems would have to be linked either using internet or hard wired. Again, certainly possible, but arranging cards in a predetermined sequence is something that can be done internally, without linking to anything else. Simple, simple, simple.
coachbelly
coachbelly
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:48:33 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

another computer system tracking your player's card says how many players at the table.



How are fluctuations in the number of players per round accounted for?

Do they shuffle the cards only after the number of players has been established?
heatmap
heatmap
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:55:05 PM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

Quote: 100xOdds

another computer system tracking your player's card says how many players at the table.



How are fluctuations in the number of players per round accounted for?

Do they shuffle the cards only after the number of players has been established?
link to original post



look this isnt shufflemaster doing this video but - what we are speaking about is fundamentally easy enough for a college student to do it for fun

think about how you would do it if you could manipulate the deck yourself. you cant see the algorithm in the shuffle machine and therefore its considered fair and random because you dont know the algorithm that creates the sequences in the deck.

kewlj
kewlj
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:56:22 PM permalink
Quote: coachbelly

Quote: kewlj

And to coach belly, YES there are certain sequences that will allow the house to win more. These are easily figured out through a simulation program. For example, in blackjack two such sequences would be having aces clumped within a group of non 10 value cards. It need not even be all aces, just some. This would reduce the number of player blackjack which are paid at 3:2 and increase house advantage.



If such sequences are easily figured out, will you stipulate that they have been figured out, and are all known?

Do you know of any sequences that can be created to increase the house advantage, perhaps a sequence for a single deck that can be represented in a forum post?

I recall reading that an extreme negative count favors the player, which a clumped section of non-10s would represent when dealt out.

I'm wondering if clumping aces with non-10s will mitigate the lack of blackjacks by skewing the double-down opportunities, increasing the number of dealer stiffs, and actually favor the player.

Again, this should be known information, but I don't know it, so that's why I'm asking here.



I don't know the answer either. It isn't something I have really looked into.

As for your statement about an extreme negative count being slightly advantageous to player, seems I read something like that, but I don't remember the detains. I am sure it would be very extreme and very slight advantage and would also include some strange strategy of hitting all stiffs vs dealer stiffs. Like you would hit your 16 vs dealer 6, knowing there were so many small cards remaining and hoping to draw a 20 or 21 vs the dealer drawing to a 18 or 19 as busts wouldn't come into play. I would think having to employ such a strategy would raise HUGE red flags.

Many times in blackjack it isn't whether this or that CAN happen or garner some very minutely slim advantage but whether that rare thing is worth it. Worth the effort. Worth the attention.
MDawg
MDawg
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January 28th, 2022 at 12:59:12 PM permalink
From what I understand no one discussing this topic has ever come up with any clear validated proof that she has a shufflemaster machine such as exactly what the casinos use. Sure, a lot of talk, but that's it, and it has come from those who have been proven to change their stories constantly about themselves too. Just can't believe someone who can't keep her stories straight.

In any case for all of the reasons mentioned above, this sort of thing would never happen at a casino. Especially given the player cut, and variability of how many players and hands might come into play, the potential benefit is minuscule compared to the risk to the casino's standing if discovered to be cheating. At best, this is a discussion of theory, and even following the theory to its conclusion doesn't seem to indicate that it could ever be actuated successfully in a casino.
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