CharmedQuark
CharmedQuark
Joined: Apr 28, 2015
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July 31st, 2020 at 12:04:32 PM permalink
This is not advice, just an opinion. I would play each hand independently of the other using basic strategy. Regarding knowing 2 aces tells you also those aces are not in the dealers hand. A bit of an advantage, I think. Also most of the articles regrading collusion pretty much come to the conclusion is that there is not a significant advantage if any using collusion. Bottom line - Basic strategy is always the best way to play each hand.
Vegasrider
Vegasrider
Joined: Dec 23, 2017
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July 31st, 2020 at 12:53:56 PM permalink
Quote: CharmedQuark

This is not advice, just an opinion. I would play each hand independently of the other using basic strategy. Regarding knowing 2 aces tells you also those aces are not in the dealers hand. A bit of an advantage, I think. Also most of the articles regrading collusion pretty much come to the conclusion is that there is not a significant advantage if any using collusion. Bottom line - Basic strategy is always the best way to play each hand.



Pre-Covid 19, when the tables were full, sitting at 3rd base allows me to observe the entire tables behavior
Most players get really excited or just blurts out there hands or just turns over their hands and ask what they should do. I quietly pick up information, without collusion. It often gives me a slight edge knowing what cards are NOT in play
gordonm888
gordonm888
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July 31st, 2020 at 2:14:15 PM permalink
Quote: CharmedQuark

This is not advice, just an opinion. I would play each hand independently of the other using basic strategy. Regarding knowing 2 aces tells you also those aces are not in the dealers hand. A bit of an advantage, I think. Also most of the articles regrading collusion pretty much come to the conclusion is that there is not a significant advantage if any using collusion. Bottom line - Basic strategy is always the best way to play each hand.



I 100% agree that, when seeing 2 Cards, the effect of the strategies I described on House Edge are extremely small - because the conditions occur infrequently. But I answered a question that was asked, and it is kinda fun to reoptimize your decision once in every hundred hands or so.

But your advice is not mathematically sound. When you have a J8s, much of the strength (or "equity") of your hand lies in the prospect of J's or 8's hitting the board and giving you one pair, two pair, 3oak, whatever. Also, a small amount of your hand's equity lies in the prospect of making a straight or flush. So, specifically looking for the key cards: Jacks or Eights or cards that will give you a flush or straight - is the way to go.

And when you can indeed see other cards (that are "removed from the deck") then you have more information than was assumed when "basic strategy" was developed. So it is indeed mathematically sound to consider changes in basic strategy in those circumstances.
So many better men, a few of them friends, were dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things lived on, and so did I.
DanielFromOC
DanielFromOC
Joined: Jul 29, 2020
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July 31st, 2020 at 4:47:17 PM permalink
It seems that if there were no significant advantage to knowing more cards, the dealer would not have a fit when you show cards to other players. Some casinos have been more relaxed on the rule than others, but none that I have been to are OK with it happening openly. If there were no significant advantage, they surely would not mind just dealing the cards face-up. So knowing 4%-4.44% more of what cards are left in the deck has to add up to something in a game with a house edge of 2-3%. It seems that right now, we could leverage those rules in our favor, for a short time.
Mission146
Mission146
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August 1st, 2020 at 8:52:04 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I 100% agree that, when seeing 2 Cards, the effect of the strategies I described on House Edge are extremely small - because the conditions occur infrequently. But I answered a question that was asked, and it is kinda fun to reoptimize your decision once in every hundred hands or so.

But your advice is not mathematically sound. When you have a J8s, much of the strength (or "equity") of your hand lies in the prospect of J's or 8's hitting the board and giving you one pair, two pair, 3oak, whatever. Also, a small amount of your hand's equity lies in the prospect of making a straight or flush. So, specifically looking for the key cards: Jacks or Eights or cards that will give you a flush or straight - is the way to go.

And when you can indeed see other cards (that are "removed from the deck") then you have more information than was assumed when "basic strategy" was developed. So it is indeed mathematically sound to consider changes in basic strategy in those circumstances.



I agree with this breakdown. I would also say that, from a probability standpoint, if there is a jack in each of your hands, then that's one jack that is definitely no longer amongst the unknown cards. If the jack was amongst the unknown cards, the probability that the dealer has it is relatively low. Same thing with aces, or with any other card. It's true that the dealer does not have that particular card of that rank, but the fact that you do (in opposing hands) makes your situation worse than the small chance that the dealer might have that card otherwise.

Also, not only is it not in the dealer's hand...it's also not coming on the board.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Vegasrider
Vegasrider
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August 1st, 2020 at 9:50:22 AM permalink
I think playing 2 hands of the game DJ Wild would create more of an edge than playing 2 hands of UTH. Not sure if its allowed. Considering all dueces plus the joker are all wild cards and knowing that they are dead or alive for the dealer is HUGE!
miplet
miplet
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Vegasrider
August 1st, 2020 at 11:09:35 AM permalink
Discount gambling as a great article about it. https://discountgambling.net/2010/01/15/practical-collusion-for-ultimate-texas-holdem/ .
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
Deucekies
Deucekies
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August 1st, 2020 at 1:26:13 PM permalink
Quote: DanielFromOC

It seems that if there were no significant advantage to knowing more cards, the dealer would not have a fit when you show cards to other players.



Dealers only have a fit over it because their management instructs them too. Casino management often acts in a knee-jerk manner when it comes to perceived "player advantage".

The fact is that the casinos that allow players to see each other's cards on UTH are doing it right. The advantage that can be gained is minimal, and what's going to happen far more often is players are going to chicken out of good plays. "I have AK suited! I'm going to bet four tim...oh, you have a king? I check."
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Romes
Romes
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Deucekies
August 1st, 2020 at 3:00:26 PM permalink
Seeing all 6 hands at the table still wouldn't put the player at any kind of advantage. Yes, may change some decisions and helps for counting outs, but doesn't change "a lot" on the whole.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
DanielFromOC
DanielFromOC
Joined: Jul 29, 2020
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August 1st, 2020 at 4:19:37 PM permalink
If that is true, then maybe they (casinos) would be wise to start dealing the cards face up to everyone, so that we no longer need to touch them. If safety is paramount, and all odds are about the same, it seems like an easy call.

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