Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
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November 12th, 2010 at 12:26:02 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

You have to realize that placing a $5 hardway bet is exactly equivalent to throwing fifty cents over your shoulder. It doesn't take many repetitions of this act to add up to throwing a $5 bill over your shoulder, then $10, then $20...and the casino is the one that bends down, picks that money up, and puts it in its pocket.



No, not really. It's more like throwing fifty cents over your shoulder and getting a little jolt of excitement in return. It might not be worth it for you, and it doesn't usually work for me, but you do have to say the whole equation, the good part as well as the bad part. If a guy feels it's worth fifty cents to him, then it is.
NO KILL I
focd
focd
Joined: Sep 15, 2010
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November 12th, 2010 at 12:29:40 PM permalink
I have to agree it's conflicting as there are pros and cons. Making those prop bets give you some excitement and also slows the game down a bit. Also, with those dollar bets, the stickman also has to do a lot of work positioning them and keeping track. So it's not all that bad. The problem is that they keep asking you if you want it back up. It's like weird or something if you just want to make 1 bet and 1 bet only.
DrEntropy
DrEntropy
Joined: Nov 13, 2009
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November 12th, 2010 at 12:32:43 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

No, not really. It's more like throwing fifty cents over your shoulder and getting a little jolt of excitement in return. It might not be worth it for you, and it doesn't usually work for me, but you do have to say the whole equation, the good part as well as the bad part. If a guy feels it's worth fifty cents to him, then it is.



I might have to try throwing 50 cents over my shoulder and see what happens :)
If I hit a security guard, I might get a jolt.
:)
"Mathematical expectation has nothing to do with results." (Sklansky, Theory of Poker).
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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November 12th, 2010 at 1:10:41 PM permalink
If your hardway comes down due to an easy roll, asking to put it back up is more on the customer service side. Since most players WILL want to put it back up. If the dealer remained slient, you'd be pissed if the hard way then hit. Of course, if the dealer is silent and another easy way , or seven hits, then the house would be pissed. Either way, if the dealer doesn't say something, someone will be pissed.

Ditto for the FireBet. If you bet it once, it's not out of line for the dealer to remind you when there is a new shooter.


On the other hand, if you are NOT betting the FireBet, and the dealer is goading you with comments that it's only a buck, that's a different story.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
likeplayingcrapsandbj
likeplayingcrapsandbj
Joined: May 17, 2010
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November 12th, 2010 at 3:43:41 PM permalink
I play the don't and a woman last week hit 7 points and the next day a guy hit 5 points. They hurt me. But most of the time the house gets the money from the fire bet.
Last Man at the Table
BigTip
BigTip
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November 12th, 2010 at 5:12:43 PM permalink
Entertainment value. That's how you should look at ANY gambling.

I am entertained by half dressed blackjack dealers, but I don't get enough entertainment value out of it to overcome the 6/5 buttraping.

Roulette could be fun, but again, the knowing the high house edge, precludes me from enjoying it.

I do buy a lottery ticket though. It has a much higher "house edge" than any casino game. But I get way more than a $1 in entertainment value out of day dreaming what I will do with the 20 or 40 million dollars that I could possibly win.

So if you are entertained by throwing .50 over your shoulder, do it. If you are entertained by playing the Fire bet, do it. I just want to make sure that those playing 6/5 blackjack, or the Fire Bet, or Keno, KNOW that it has a lot higher H.A. than other bets available.
Asswhoopermcdaddy
Asswhoopermcdaddy
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November 12th, 2010 at 5:53:04 PM permalink
Dr. Entropy,

I know how you feel. One night, I had a monster streak and hit 4 points. Everybody was cheering since they had a nickel on the fire each. I however, did not have a fire bet at all. So when I sevened out, everyone around me was being paid 125. Now that's great and everything, but I'm pretty sure they've lost more than 125. In fact, given how crappy they were shooting, their win might only be break-even at best.

Do you ever see anyone making a living out of betting the fire bet? I doubt it. What about only betting on the craps 12 or 2. That'd actually be pretty amusing. See someone making 29 consecutive $5 bets on the craps 12 or 2. Not so amusing for the guy who loses 29 consecutive bets, but interesting to watch.

Don't feel too bad that you hit a 5 pt fire but had no action. You might have been better off at buying a scratch-off ticket or a lottery ticket.
goatcabin
goatcabin
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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November 14th, 2010 at 10:02:35 AM permalink
Quote: focd

I have to agree it's conflicting as there are pros and cons. Making those prop bets give you some excitement and also slows the game down a bit. Also, with those dollar bets, the stickman also has to do a lot of work positioning them and keeping track. So it's not all that bad. The problem is that they keep asking you if you want it back up. It's like weird or something if you just want to make 1 bet and 1 bet only.



I have a couple of dealer manuals, and they both stress "hustle the prop bets". Naturally, the casino wants people to bet those, because they make more money per dollar bet than the line, field and place bets. The dealers represent the interests of the casinos, and some of them get pretty aggressive about it, trying to make the player feel "cheap" if he/she doesn't keep putting that hardway back up, or whatever. I have had dealers make fun of me because I didn't increase my bets enough during a hot roll, too. Part of their job is to maximize the amount bet and the proportion of it bet on higher-vig bets. The player does not have to cooperate.

If you make $1 bets on the 12, for example, you are, in a way, "throwing 14 cents over your shoulder", because the HA is built in to every bet; even if you win, they are taking $5 of the $35 you would be paid in a fair game and putting it in their stacks. If you look at the casinos, on one hand, and the players, taken as an aggregate, on the other, there is going to be a "transfer of wealth" from the players to the casinos, on these bets, of something close to 14% of the total amount bet.

However, from the point of view of an individual player, the picture is different, it seems to me. Suppose I play for a couple of hours, betting the pass line for $5 and taking 3, 4, 5X odds. That's an average bet of about $19 with an expected loss of about seven cents. During this session, if there are 200 rolls, we expect something like 23 shooters, on average (average hand is 8.525 rolls). Suppose I make a $1 12 bet on each shooter's initial roll. The ev for 60 $5 pass bets is -$4.24, and for 23 $1 12 bets it's -$3.19, so I'm "throwing around $7.50 over my shoulder". In the worst-case scenario, I am losing $23 on the "boxcars", and the probability of that occurring is .523. OTOH, there's .477 probability that I will win AT LEAST one of those bets and a .133 probability that I will win two OR MORE. I only need to win one to be net ahead. Each additional win is worth $31 more, while the losses are capped at $23, so it's a very skewed distribution. If a player gets lucky and wins, that does not increase the probability of losing them all next time, as there is no "cosmic rubber band" pulling an individual's results back to the ev.

Understand, I am not advocating this, I'm just saying that an individual player can make bets like these with full understanding of the math involved. It depends on what the player is playing for -- to take maximum advantage of good luck, if it occurs; to minimize the damage of bad luck; to maximize the probability of one's bankroll lasting until you have to pee; to get a thrill -- whatever.

Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA
Cheers, Alan Shank "How's that for a squabble, Pugh?" Peter Boyle as Mister Moon in "Yellowbeard"
focd
focd
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November 15th, 2010 at 7:23:47 AM permalink
Quote: goatcabin

I have a couple of dealer manuals, and they both stress "hustle the prop bets". Naturally, the casino wants people to bet those, because they make more money per dollar bet than the line, field and place bets. The dealers represent the interests of the casinos, and some of them get pretty aggressive about it, trying to make the player feel "cheap" if he/she doesn't keep putting that hardway back up, or whatever. I have had dealers make fun of me because I didn't increase my bets enough during a hot roll, too. Part of their job is to maximize the amount bet and the proportion of it bet on higher-vig bets. The player does not have to cooperate.


I totally agree with what you say in that I feel that the dealers try to persuade you into making prop bets or making place bets when the rolls are hot. When I mean by making place bets, I mean placing those sucker numbers like 4, 5, 9, and 10. However, there is a difference when it comes to better places to play craps as opposed to places you don't want to play at. Some places will mention it once and once you say no, they won't keep asking again. However, some dealers will go "come on it's only a dollar, it won't hurt" or "what can you do with a dollar these days? you can't even get a candy bar." That's how bad it is. Sometimes it's not just what they say but it's just their body language, etc... Which is why I avoid playing at those places at all costs. I agree with you that players don't have to listen, but it really is easier said than done. If you're playing by yourself there are 4 people watching you and sometimes they keep asking making you feel uncomfortable. And you can't sometimes just say straight up NO (as in like NO don't ask again because it's getting annoying!) That's a part of craps I don't like because sometimes you can't just walk away with a bunch of chips when the dealer(s) is/are annoying. They might ask you to color up before you leave if you do decide to just walk off and it feels weird when you know the dealers are rude. It's makes me feel really uncomfortable counting chips on the rail slowly while everyone is unfriendly in that way. It makes you look like you're cheap or paranoid because you have to stop and have everyone wait for you to count your chips before you color up. That's what I don't like about these dealers and I'm guessing they're the ones who hustle for players to make prop bets. I mean I'm sure boxmen make mistakes while counting chips. That's why I will only play at places I like/or are familiar with.
TIMSPEED
TIMSPEED
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December 13th, 2010 at 3:36:35 PM permalink
Quote: goatcabin

Suppose I play for a couple of hours, betting the pass line for $5 and taking 3, 4, 5X odds. That's an average bet of about $19 with an expected loss of about seven cents.

Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA


WTF? If you were to bet that way, your average bet would be $25 ($5 pass/$20 odds)
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ

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