Teddydogno1
• Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 18, 2018
October 18th, 2018 at 4:27:27 PM permalink
I have been learning Ultimate Texas Hold 'em using the Wizard of Odds basic strategy and his "Practice for free" game. I have come across some plays where the game (and checked with the UTH calculator) differs from the basic strategy.

Sometimes when the game says "that is not the correct bet", I check again and see where I missed something or miscalculated. Other times, I don't see where I could possibly be wrong, so I check the hand using the WoO calculator. The calculator agrees with the game (I'm sure that's where the game gets its info). I assume this is because the simple/basic strategy just cannot take into account all "edge cases" with minor differences in expected outcome. Is that right?

One I've seen a couple of times seems to be where I have a 10 and there is a K on the board (off suit) and it says to Raise rather than check. I don't have an example at hand right now.

Another type of case is where I have a 2 and another low card (2H + 10 H). The flop shows another 2 (D)and mixed low cards (4C, 8S). The simple strategy says that I should only raise:
--Two pair or better
--Hidden pair, except pocket deuces (which I think is odd because isn't "pocket deuces" when both are in MY hand?)
--Four to a flush including a hidden 10 or better to that flush

So taking this literally, I SHOULD raise because the pair of ducks has one of them "hidden". But in quite a few other plays, it has told me to check with a pair of ducks after the flop, so I had taken to checking with the pair, even with one hidden. But now this hand comes up and it says I should RAISE after the flop. Note that from the many hands of practice I have played, this situation has USUALLY showed that I should only CALL at the end of the hand with the "hidden pair" of deuces.

HAND
Me: 2H, 10H; check
Flop: 4C, 8S, 2D; check (but was told by the game this is incorrect)
R/T: 7C, 7S; call (but should have already raised)

What the DEUCE?????

Is there something about the fact that my other card is a suited 10 that makes me want to raise after the flop? Please let me know if I was unclear about anything.

This is my first post here and I'm very new to UTH. I'm planning to play when I am in Las Vegas next week (usually a BJ, Craps and VP player).

Rob
beachbumbabs
• Posts: 14268
Joined: May 21, 2013
October 18th, 2018 at 10:44:30 PM permalink
Quote: Teddydogno1

I have been learning Ultimate Texas Hold 'em using the Wizard of Odds basic strategy and his "Practice for free" game. I have come across some plays where the game (and checked with the UTH calculator) differs from the basic strategy.

Sometimes when the game says "that is not the correct bet", I check again and see where I missed something or miscalculated. Other times, I don't see where I could possibly be wrong, so I check the hand using the WoO calculator. The calculator agrees with the game (I'm sure that's where the game gets its info). I assume this is because the simple/basic strategy just cannot take into account all "edge cases" with minor differences in expected outcome. Is that right?

One I've seen a couple of times seems to be where I have a 10 and there is a K on the board (off suit) and it says to Raise rather than check. I don't have an example at hand right now.

Another type of case is where I have a 2 and another low card (2H + 10 H). The flop shows another 2 (D)and mixed low cards (4C, 8S). The simple strategy says that I should only raise:
--Two pair or better
--Hidden pair, except pocket deuces (which I think is odd because isn't "pocket deuces" when both are in MY hand?)
--Four to a flush including a hidden 10 or better to that flush

So taking this literally, I SHOULD raise because the pair of ducks has one of them "hidden". But in quite a few other plays, it has told me to check with a pair of ducks after the flop, so I had taken to checking with the pair, even with one hidden. But now this hand comes up and it says I should RAISE after the flop. Note that from the many hands of practice I have played, this situation has USUALLY showed that I should only CALL at the end of the hand with the "hidden pair" of deuces.

HAND
Me: 2H, 10H; check
Flop: 4C, 8S, 2D; check (but was told by the game this is incorrect)
R/T: 7C, 7S; call (but should have already raised)

What the DEUCE?????

Is there something about the fact that my other card is a suited 10 that makes me want to raise after the flop? Please let me know if I was unclear about anything.

This is my first post here and I'm very new to UTH. I'm planning to play when I am in Las Vegas next week (usually a BJ, Craps and VP player).

Rob

Hi, and welcome to the board, Rob!

It doesn't make sense to me either that it would urge you to bet 2x on the ducks. It must be an exception play based on the 10 being an overcard, because suits wouldn't matter with that flop. I still think it's a check, but it's certainly possible the math says it's best to raise there.

The math doesn't protect you from a desler pocket pair, though it's within range on any hand.

No idea what hands are giving you a cue to play a 10 with an off suit king on the board. Probaby need an exact breakdown. A total guess from me, is the 10 is a good enough kicker to bet rather than fold. Not sure that's helpful since you indicated check was an option, implying this was after the flop.

You mention simple strategy. Are you including the kicker strategy, or just the simple base strategy?

Anyway, it's fun to dig into the details.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
gordonm888
• Posts: 5200
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
Thanked by
October 19th, 2018 at 7:52:41 AM permalink
HAND
Me: 2H, 10H; check
Flop: 4C, 8S, 2D; check (but was told by the game this is incorrect)
R/T: 7C, 7S; call (but should have already raised)

On the flop your Raise EV was -0.33 and your Check EV was -0.42.

The rule I use for post flop betting is that when the board (postflop) is unsuited and unpaired you should raise any hand with a pair.

The 10h kicker in your hand does not play into this decision. If you replace 10h with 7h your postflop Raise EV was - 0.36 and postflop Check EV was -0.43.

**********************
For the river decision, your Call/Bet EV = - 0.15 and your Fold EV = - 2.00.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Teddydogno1
• Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 18, 2018
October 19th, 2018 at 3:51:40 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Hi, and welcome to the board, Rob!

...

You mention simple strategy. Are you including the kicker strategy, or just the simple base strategy?

I guess it is called the "Wizard Strategy" from the Wizard of Odds page (can't post a url -- too much newbie).

Is there a better/different one? This one seems pretty easy to follow and after less than a week I nearly have it memorized.

Rob
gordonm888
• Posts: 5200
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
October 19th, 2018 at 4:54:47 PM permalink
Quote: Teddydogno1

I guess it is called the "Wizard Strategy" from the Wizard of Odds page (can't post a url -- too much newbie).

Is there a better/different one? This one seems pretty easy to follow and after less than a week I nearly have it memorized.

Rob

I think Stephen Howe has posted the "best" UTH strategy that I am aware of, although its quite complicated. See this link: discount gambling

Also, you can learn a lot about the game by studying this strategy. Its definitely not for everyone, though.

Note: I think we're allowed to post links to the discountgambling site because I've see links to discountgambling pages on the bottom of some WOO pages. If not, moderators please delete the link.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Teddydogno1
• Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 18, 2018
October 19th, 2018 at 4:57:45 PM permalink
Here's another one I didn't get until like the 4th look

Me: 2s 4s; check (computer agrees)
Flop: 7c Qc 7h; check (computer agrees)
R/T: 3h 3c; fold (computer says raise)

Under what rule do I raise? I have no pat hand. 2 pair on the board with Q high.

But then the lights went on...Only a K or A would improve the dealer's hand above what is on the board. DING DING DING.

Of course the dealer DID have an A, so I lost.

Is it clear that I'm really not a strong Texas Hold 'Em player?

Rob
Teddydogno1
• Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 18, 2018
October 19th, 2018 at 4:59:54 PM permalink
I couldn't post a link due to being too new to the site. The message said 20 points required before posting a URL (heck, it won't even let me post the WORD l-i-n-k)..

Rob
beachbumbabs
• Posts: 14268
Joined: May 21, 2013
October 19th, 2018 at 5:03:33 PM permalink
Quote: Teddydogno1

Here's another one I didn't get until like the 4th look

Me: 2s 4s; check (computer agrees)
Flop: 7c Qc 7h; check (computer agrees)
R/T: 3h 3c; fold (computer says raise)

Under what rule do I raise? I have no pat hand. 2 pair on the board with Q high.

But then the lights went on...Only a K or A would improve the dealer's hand above what is on the board. DING DING DING.

Of course the dealer DID have an A, so I lost.

Is it clear that I'm really not a strong Texas Hold 'Em player?

Rob

Only 1 way to learn. Yeah, gotta watch for ways to play the board, try and push.

Only 15 cards for the dealer to improve the board. So you play.

2 3s
2 7s
3 Qs
4 As
4 Ks

Keep working on it . You're getting there.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
• Posts: 14268
Joined: May 21, 2013
October 19th, 2018 at 5:04:56 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I think Stephen Howe has posted the "best" UTH strategy that I am aware of, although its quite complicated. See this link: discount gambling

Also, you can learn a lot about the game by studying this strategy. Its definitely not for everyone, though.

Note: I think we're allowed to post links to the discountgambling site because I've see links to discountgambling pages on the bottom of some WOO pages. If not, moderators please delete the link.

Wizard has linked to Stephen several times, so I would think it was very helpful for you to do so. Thanks.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.