shuffle machine and casino paranoia

Hi guys, this dates back to a while but I had a slightly bigger cashout at my landbased casino and they asked for my casino card. After I showed them the card, my subsequent visits were totally terrible and felt like they had capped me. It felt like I couldn't win on any game. I'd try blackjack and all I got were stiffs, I'd play baccarat and I'd lose when I follow the trend, bet banker only, go against the trend, bet player only, it doesn't matter I just can't win. I'd play UTH and I would get rounds after rounds of 27o, 35o, 39o and everyone else around me who can't play properly gets 4x material. I've never felt so handicapped in my life. I was lucky to walk away with a 50 dollar profit sometimes. To cut to the chase, is shufflemaster rigged or not? Are there RFID sensors on the bottom of the felt/table that correlates with the machine? Or am I just paranoid?


PS: I'm usually a green chipper on UTH, red chipper on blackjack and a black chipper on baccarat depending on conditions.

Paranoid.


Just a coincidental bad run of luck.

Agree, paranoid. If they cheat there are too many people involved to keep it a secret. If they are outed for cheating they kill the goose that lays golden eggs. Cheating would be a stupid decision.

Quote: dajakesta

Hi guys, this dates back to a while but I had a slightly bigger cashout at my landbased casino and they asked for my casino card. After I showed them the card, my subsequent visits were totally terrible and felt like they had capped me. It felt like I couldn't win on any game. I'd try blackjack and all I got were stiffs, I'd play baccarat and I'd lose when I follow the trend, bet banker only, go against the trend, bet player only, it doesn't matter I just can't win. I'd play UTH and I would get rounds after rounds of 27o, 35o, 39o and everyone else around me who can't play properly gets 4x material. I've never felt so handicapped in my life. I was lucky to walk away with a 50 dollar profit sometimes. To cut to the chase, is shufflemaster rigged or not? Are there RFID sensors on the bottom of the felt/table that correlates with the machine? Or am I just paranoid?


PS: I'm usually a green chipper on UTH, red chipper on blackjack and a black chipper on baccarat depending on conditions.

You are not paranoid. I think there is something fishy going on and if anyone tells you that casinos don't do funky stuff to make money, it is a lie. If you want a fair game you should look for handed shuffle table only and avoid the machine. If you don't feel right just walk away and always listen to your instints. Best of luck!

Quote: Jss101

You are not paranoid. I think there is something fishy going on and if anyone tells you that casinos don't do funky stuff to make money, it is a lie. If you want a fair game you should look for handed shuffle table only and avoid the machine. If you don't feel right just walk away and always listen to your instints. Best of luck!

Wow, these crazy conspiracy theories are the exact opposite of true. Why do people make stuff up? I still have no idea, but it seems to happen here all the time.

The biggest scams of all time are in hand shuffled games. Skilled dealers can do just about anything they want with a hand shuffle. Look up Richard Marcus (blackjack) or the Tran Gang (baccarat), or watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEOk22Z30C4

Meanwhile I can tell you from first-hand experience in game protection world-wide that it is skilled players who understand the physical construction and algorithms in shufflers who are beating the machines. For example,

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/how-advantage-players-game-the-casinos.html

and read the conclusion in this:

http://statweb.stanford.edu/~susan/papers/casino.pdf

I don't believe that state-regulated casinos will cheat like that. But I have no faith in Indian-regulated casinos and I have heard an account from an ex-employee of one particular Indian-regulated casino that the settings of automatic shufflers are (were) routinely altered in that one particular casino to drive off undesirable clients.

Like you, I posted my concerns in this forum and was shouted down by a half-dozen industry supporters who had never even visited this particular casino. I did a lot of research on the regulations for Indian-regulated casinos and found that the minimum operating requirements (in the Federal Code of Regulations) that Indian-regulated casinos must meet to assure "game integrity" were written before the widespread use of automated shufflers - and certainly before the introduction of card-recognition software and RFID technology for identifying cards. There are no minimum requirements written into Indian casino regulatory law that specifically address the integrity of shufflers.

I also found that many automated shufflers for tables games (other than Blackjack) have modes of operation built into them by the shuffler vendor that enables cards to be dealt in certain non-random ways. This is often/always (I think) disclosed in manufacturer information about the specific shuffler machine.

Again, my sense is that regulators in states are aware of the potential for automated shufflers to be abused by the casino operator staff and that state regulatory bodies (such as in Nevada and New Jersey) can be trusted to police this in a satisfactory way. However, if there is no motivated, informed oversight by Indian tribes, I also believe that Indian-regulated casinos can fully comply with the minimum requirements in Federal regulations while generating no auditable records about their shuffler settings. It depends upon whether a particular Indian tribe creates requirements on tracking and controlling shuffler operations that exceed the federal requirements. Reportedly, some Indian tribes in some states do this. But, I personally do not believe that every Indian tribe that regulates casino operations has adequate safeguards against abuse of automated shufflers on table games.

I know that the advocates/employees of the gambling industry that frequent this forum will denounce this post in hysterical language. Hopefully, you will recognize the truth when you hear it. In certain Indian casinos, you should watch your ass.

Quote: gordonm888

I don't believe that state-regulated casinos will cheat like that. But I have no faith in Indian-regulated casinos and I have heard an account from an ex-employee of one particular Indian-regulated casino that the settings of automatic shufflers are (were) routinely altered in that one particular casino to drive off undesirable clients.

Like you, I posted my concerns in this forum and was shouted down by a half-dozen industry supporters who had never even visited this particular casino. I did a lot of research on the regulations for Indian-regulated casinos and found that the minimum operating requirements (in the Federal Code of Regulations) that Indian-regulated casinos must meet to assure "game integrity" were written before the widespread use of automated shufflers - and certainly before the introduction of card-recognition software and RFID technology for identifying cards. There are no minimum requirements written into Indian casino regualtory law that specifically address the integrity of shufflers.

I also found that many automated shufflers for tables games (other than Blackjack) have modes of operation built into them by the shuffler vendor that enables cards to be dealt in certain non-random ways. This is often/always (I think) disclosed in manufacturer information about the specific shuffler machine.

Again, my sense is that regulators in states are aware of the potential for automated shufflers to be abused by the casino operator staff and that state regulatory bodies (such as in Nevada and New Jersey) can be trusted to police this in a satisfactory way. However, if there is no motivated, informed oversight by Indian tribes, I also believe that Indian-regulated casinos can fully comply with the minimum requirements in Federal regulations while generating no auditable records about their shuffler settings. It depends upon whether a particular Indian tribe creates requirements on tracking and controlling shuffler operations that exceed the federal requirements. Reportedly, some Indian tribes in some states do this. But, I personally do not believe that every Indian tribe that regulates casino operations has adequate safeguards against abuse of automated shufflers on table games.

I know that the advocates/employees of the gambling industry that frequent this forum will denounce this post in hysterical language. Hopefully, you will recognize the truth when you hear it. In certain Indian casinos, you should watch your ass.

This was such a dumb response.

The shufflers don't have the capability to flip a switch and start dealing bad cards. It is 100% random.

Quote: SM777

This was such a dumb response.

The shufflers don't have the capability to flip a switch and start dealing bad cards. It is 100% random.

Perhaps your experience is with a limited subset of automated shufflers, but apparently you are not familiar with every automated shuffler that is made for any table game. I tried to exclude BJ shuffler machines from my comments because I have no specific information about them that indicates there might be a concern..

I repeat this general statement: On certain specific automated shufflers for certain table games, the manufacturer's information openly discloses that the machines identify the cards before they are dealt (and often records the sequence of cards dealt) and that the specific shuffler machine has a designed-in capability to deal cards in a non-random sequence. It is this latter capability that is subject to potential abuse if external regulation of "game integrity" is inadequate. I've tried to keep my comments as general as possible, and so I have made no claim about how easy or hard it is to operate a shuffler to "control" the cards that are dealt.

Quote: gordonm888

Perhaps your experience is with a limited subset of automated shufflers, but apparently you are not familiar with every automated shuffler that is made for any table game. I tried to exclude BJ shuffler machines from my comments because I have no specific information about them that indicates there might be a concern..

I repeat this general statement: On certain specific automated shufflers for certain table games, the manufacturer's information openly discloses that the machines identify the cards before they are dealt (and often records the sequence of cards dealt) and that the specific shuffler machine has a designed-in capability to deal cards in a non-random sequence. It is this latter capability that is subject to potential abuse if external regulation of "game integrity" is inadequate. I've tried to keep my comments as general as possible, and so I have made no claim about how easy or hard it is to operate a shuffler to "control" the cards that are dealt.

That's quite a side step from saying Indian casinos adjust the shuffler to drive off unwanted customers.

I assume you realized that statement was categorically false.

Quote: SM777

That's quite a side step from saying Indian casinos adjust the shuffler to drive off unwanted customers.

I assume you realized that statement was categorically false.

I said that an ex-employee of one particular Indian casino where I have played told me that the floor staff was able to adjust the shuffler, etc. It is absolutely true that the ex-employee told me that - but, no, I cannot really know whether he was being truthful. I assume you have no actual specific knowledge about this casino (it is in NC), about their operating staff and about what the operating staff does when no one is looking - and are just stating what you hope and expect to be true and what you and the gambling industry want people to believe.

I won't be responding to any more posts in this thread. We have thrashed this all out before in another thread.

Quote: gordonm888

I said that an ex-employee of one particular Indian casino where I have played told me that the floor staff was able to adjust the shuffler, etc. It is absolutely true that the ex-employee told me that - but, no, I cannot really know whether he was being truthful. I assume you have no actual specific knowledge about this casino (it is in NC), about their operating staff and about what the operating staff does when no one is looking - and are just stating what you hope and expect to be true and what you and the gambling industry want people to believe.

I won't be responding to any more posts in this thread. We have thrashed this all out before in another thread.

Haha. Another side step. This is great.

I look forward to your next response. It should be interesting.

Relax don't be a paranoid person. Your just having a bad luck in your plays. Casino won't do such thing your thinking its just all in your head.

YOU'RE paranoid, the casino's don't have to cheat, they only need to open their doors and let you guys in. In all gaming/gambling if you don't have the advantage you will eventually lose.