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DRich
DRich
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May 10th, 2016 at 8:35:28 PM permalink
Has anyone asked which lab certifies the games in NC? I would say with 99.99% certainty that it is either GLI or BMM. Maybe everyone that is skeptical should read their test requirements.
Order from chaos
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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May 13th, 2016 at 11:56:44 AM permalink
edit: post removed
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
MrV
MrV
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May 13th, 2016 at 2:07:11 PM permalink
I can't speak for how things work in NC, but here is a summary of how it's regulated in Oregon, from the FAQ section of the applicable Oregon state website:

"Class III gaming is regulated primarily by the Tribal gaming commissions and the Oregon State Police. To conduct Class III gaming a Tribal government must enter into a Class III gaming compact with the State and have it approved by the Department of Interior. The compact can allocate regulatory responsibilities between the tribe and the state. "
"What, me worry?"
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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May 15th, 2016 at 9:18:59 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

North Carolina has criminalized commercial casino gambling so they have no need to regulate it. The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, which is the sovereign nation that owns the two tribal casinos in North Carolina, has a gaming commission. It's website is here: http://www.cherokeegamingcommission.com/



Thank you MathExtremist for posting this. This website is indeed the regulatory body for the North Carolina Cherokee casinos. It has many, many detailed regulations, which do indeed appear to be fully compliant with the federal regulations.

However, it is clear from this website that there are no regulations or controls on automated shufflers.

The Cherokees regulate "gaming devices," which are devices that accept money, chips or tokens and can issue a payout. "Other electronic machines" are regulated, specifically "server-based devices" for tracking game finances and "game surveillance equipment."

In the section titled "Table Games," there are requirements to keep playing cards wrapped while they are stored, and to discard playing cards after three months. But there is absolutely no mention of automated shufflers in the "Table Games" section - or any section - of the Cherokee casino regulations.

I checked the Minimum Internal Controls in the federal regulations established by the Office of Indian Affairs and it is the same thing - no mention of automated shufflers. Automated shuffler devices are a blank spot on the regulatory map for Indian casinos - I imagine they can voluntarily choose to regulate them, but the federal guidelines do not require that they be regulated. It is as if the federal regulators are ignorant of the fact that automated shufflers can read the cards and record the sequence of cards that are dealt.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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May 15th, 2016 at 5:32:30 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

However, it is clear from this website that there are no regulations or controls on automated shufflers.

The Cherokees regulate "gaming devices," which are devices that accept money, chips or tokens and can issue a payout.

Again, no. The Compact requires that "All equipment utilized in the conduct of live table gaming must receive approval and certification from the Tribal Gaming Commission prior to being placed into operation"

I presume you don't dispute that an automated shuffler would fall under the umbrella of "equipment utilized in the conduct of live table gaming."

Also, the definition of "gaming device" is not as narrow as you state. It is explicitly broader than that in the Commission's regulations:
"Gaming device means any equipment or mechanical, electromechanical or electronic contrivance,
component or machine, used remotely or directly in connection with any gaming which affects the
result of a wager by determining or predicting the outcome of such game or the odds of winning or
losing such game. The term shall be broadly construed to promote the purposes of this chapter and
shall also include any devices, machines, components or contrivances which do or are capable of
affecting, in any way, the playing of any gaming."

Now here's the interesting conclusion based on that definition. If a shuffler has "beast mode" and can affect the results of a wager by determining the odds, it is clearly a gaming device and must therefore be regulated. Based on the phrase "shall be broadly construed," I believe the intent of that definition would include automated shufflers in any event, even purely mechanical ones that can't read cards. I have first-hand experience working with gaming regulators in several states, and as a general rule any ambiguity in regulation language is resolved in favor of tighter, not looser, regulation. In any event, it is not an accurate interpretation of the above language to suggest that a gaffed shuffler would be allowed in a Cherokee casino without any regulatory scrutiny.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
wdtcf
wdtcf
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June 3rd, 2016 at 6:12:27 PM permalink
I'd like to put something up for consideration. Specifically regarding Pai Gow Poker Shuffle Master machines. These machines can not only read the cards and inform the user of card order subsequent to a deal of cards for verification purposes, but they can also take a deck of shuffled cards and unshuffle the cards and put them in the order that the originally came out of the unopened box. This is a programmable machine. I've been playing the Pai Gow table games at the Srminole Casino in Hollywood, FL for 8 years now. When the table games began back then the casino had a computerized random number generator that told the dealer where to place the first set of cards for each hand. I can personally attest from experience that the CRNG appeared to work in the casino's favor. There were constant streaks were the dealer had two strong pairs that yielded wins or pushes for the House and some streaks where the dealer would get the joker for 6 consecutive hands. After a constant stream of e casino did away with the CRNG and went with 3 dice. A much fairer option from the gambker's position. However, it does NOT go far enough. Even after the dice are rolled and the number is e cards are still in the machine. Recently I have started to see the same pattern of the dealer pulling mega-hands to the point where I sit down with tting the table minimum of ter 2.5 hours I will be down to my last $80. No matter how strong your hand the dealer either has a stronger hand or a bonus hand that negates your very strong hand to a push. In Pai Gow Poker, theoretically, the Casino's advantage comes from the fact that the copy hands favor the house and all winning wagers pay a 5% commission. In theory....over the long run this edge provides a substantial advantage to the Casino. However, if a bettor varies his betting the minimum when he feels he will lose a hand and increasing his bet when he thinks he has a stronger chance of winning.......you can achieve winnings of 10-15% of your bankroll on a consistent basis. This is only possible in a fair game where your not fighting the Shuffle Master motherboard.

Some advocates for the casino will say, 'but the casino doesn't have to cheat.' I disagree. The Casino's in Florida have a deal to pay the State an annual fee of $250MM. The State is also the regulator. I suggest this to be a case of the Fox providing oversight to the hen house. Before the Casino can address overhead expenses and/or profits, they owe the State of Florida $250MM, regardless of performance. I think the incentive to bend rules or cut corners is huge. The fair and straight thing to do is to push the button on the Shuffle Master machine....let the cards be laid out on the table in the seven separate groups.....and THEN roll the dice to determine where to start placing the cards.

Lastly, I have no hard evidence but I'd like to conclude with this thought. The U.S. government has drones flying in the skies above Yemen, Afghanistan,,and Pakistan. These drones sometimes carry missiles that are surgically deployed towards targets while the operator of this drone is located in an office in a strip mall in Arkansas or Kansas. My point is I called Shuffle Master a few years back and they confirmed that the Shuffle Master machine has a designed capacity for a wireless interface, I.e., the machine can be influenced/manipulated remotely. The gentleman on the phone went on to say that this is clearly stated in the patent for the Shuffle Master machine.

Food for thought, eh?
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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June 3rd, 2016 at 6:20:40 PM permalink
To start , did you see the Seminoles made 2.4 billion last year after giving the state theirs?

Secondly if they use dice how does the machine know who gets what cards- it can set however many awesome hands it wants there is no assurance they end up with the dealer- especially with dice
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
onalinehorse
onalinehorse
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June 3rd, 2016 at 7:50:19 PM permalink
Bet the minimum when i think i will lose, but more when i think iwill win.

Gee, now you tell me.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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June 3rd, 2016 at 7:52:30 PM permalink
Quote: onalinehorse

Bet the minimum when i think i will lose, but more when i think iwill win.

Gee, now you tell me.



What is that in response to?
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
onalinehorse
onalinehorse
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June 3rd, 2016 at 7:55:38 PM permalink
Go back about 4 posts. You can win 15% per. Wdctf

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