dice setting--personal experience---highly unscientific analysis

I've fiddled with dice setting/controlling the throw from time to time, in a casino setting, with very small bets on the line. What I've done is this: once a point is established, I set the dice so that the uppermost faces show some version of the point I need (like 5-3 if I need an 8). I then rotate one of the dice so that the faces of the dice that point in the same direction do NOT add up to 7. I then throw the dice with an extreme wrist snap, so that the dice have a strong backspin, much like a golf ball with a 9-iron approach to the green. I try to have them travel airborne across the table, so that their first contact with anything is the opposite wall.

The idea is that the way I set the dice, plus the rotation I impart, will make it less likely that the two dice will end up displaying faces that total 7. By imparting the rotation around the lateral axis, I decrease the likelihood of the "outer" faces--the left-facing and the right-facing, relative to myself--coming up. If I were able to do this perfectly, then the likelihood of my point coming up would be equal to that of a 7 coming up, rather than the random expectation; this would obviously be highly advantageous. However, even if my control were imperfect, I would be influencing the result to my advantage. I obviously wouldn't need to skew the results very much to make my odds bet highly positive EV (I wouldn't affect the pass line bet all that much as I would only be doing this after a point was established, i.e., when the pass line bet itself already had a severe disadvantage).

What astonished me is that this seemed to work, and work well. I was making passes once a point was established almost fifty percent of the time--obviously, well above expectation. I tried to do the dice-setting move very swiftly, and to pretend that my dice-tossing was highly erratic and uncontrolled (since most people don't throw the dice all the way down the table through the air); nonetheless, if I held the dice for any unusual length of time, the boxman would start barking at me.

Quite possibly the greatest benficiaries were the place bettors; by decreasing the likelihood of a 7 (by whatever amount), I was turning their bets positive. I seriously doubt that I could make any real money doing this, though, as any strategy where I basically loaded up every time I held the dice would be pretty transparent--and would expose me to scrutiny pretty quickly. As it was, with nothing but a pass line bet with 2x odds, I got the fish-eye pretty quickly--and if I made three or more points, the boxman would take the dice and practically give them a prostate exam. So as not to suffer an involuntary prostate exam in the casino security office myself, I would generally throw the dice "normally" from that point on.

So my very limited experimentation has suggested that dice setting is both possible and effective--but also that it brings heat very quickly.

Given the fact that no part of the wall is flat, it doesn't seem to me like your throwing technique should result in anything other than randomness, unless you were able to hit the exact spot where the wall and felt meet, or get the dice to each hit the wall so that they are hitting exactly in between the pyramids.

I always set the dice, but I am not a controlled shooter. Some days I shoot great on almost every roll(I've rolled a 4pt and 5pt firebet on back to back rolls). Other days I point-seven every time.

It's funny because I will get some praise (not much) when I shoot decent, however on days when I am throwing terrible, I've been harassed and threatened by some of the "high rollers" (more like big losers).

It's all very random. I would argue that the only way you can actually control the dice is if you have your own craps table at home and practice it religiously much like a pro-athlete. Some guys can do it, I would agree, but most can't.

The only reason I do it is because it just makes sense that if I set the dice the same way, try to throw the dice the same way, and get them to land in the same spot, it is more likely that I will be able to repeat numbers. However it doesn't take much variation in the throw to completely change the outcome. The slightest different movement, in fact, would cause this.

Quote: mkl654321

So my very limited experimentation has suggested that dice setting is both possible and effective--but also that it brings heat very quickly.

"Dice setting" can be very-easily dismissed by a few observations of simple physics.

What can be even somewhat-controlled? Very likely not the accuracy of the intended rotations of two relatively small pieces of non-deformable plastic thrown interactively together by the human hand across a much-larger arc, as 45/2 degrees off a rotation any direction in 3-D of either die a few millimeters off an intended spot of diffuse back-foam changes everything... not even considering somewhat controlling also the underlaying various types and degrees of momentums involved in the basic trajectories, bounces and rolls. How about trying to avoid any rotation of the dice during the throw to the table? Applied mathematicians call cases like that, static; or sometimes, boundary cases... ones "on the fence" if you will, and hence impossibilities of nature in practice. Even though a die may sometimes appear to be thusly holding its own upon release, and even after its bounce off the foam... that path too is more likey than not only another of the many randomly possible by the physical resolution of such a case.

What can't be even somewhat-controlled? Vibrations, drafts, abnormal drag of a non-stream-line object, air- temperature and pressure, coriolis force, type and condition of all the materials involved, number and placement of all objects on a table, breath and heart -rates, body-temperature (eg, sweating), local gravitational fluctuations, etc. Could even a machine under lab-conditions quickly much replicate any previously-correlated results, once dismantled and moved to another such location? And surely not the complex subjective physical and psychological vagaries of most casino-goers, especially the imaginative ones who seem to only "get better" the more they lose.

I agree with Garnabby. When I first started going over to the "Darkside" I would not always bet on dice setters. What I found was that you remember the times you won and your brain just seems to forget the times you lose. It became very apparent from the DP side of the table that "dice setting" is just BS. The guy that takes his time and sets them up and has a nice easy toss is just as likely to seven out as the guy next to him who picks them up and sends them flying off the table or into every body's chips. I truly believe that once they hit the pyramids it is totally random. It is like all things with craps, they come in streaks. I don't set the dice and I have series of great rolls and horrible rolls. If I were setting the dice during the good streak I'm sure I might attribute it to the setting of the dice. I like to have the stick-man send me the dice back the way they landed but that is just superstition on my part and I don't really believe it has anything to do with my roll. But most important is to play the game the way you like to play it. So... if setting the dice gives you satisfaction and enjoyment then by all means keep it up and see how it goes!

Quote: wrongway

. When I first started going over to the "Darkside"

It is quite a lonely experience to bet the darkside. Your pleasures come individually, when everyone around you is despairing. On the other hand, you never join in the generalized merriment that comes from a hot table. This amounts to the very antithesis of why I set foot into a casino - for entertainment. Yes I know the odds are very slightly better for wrong way bettors, but if I really followed the odds I would work to own a casino, and would never patronize one.

Quote: CrappedOut

... but if I really followed the odds I would work to own a casino, and would never patronize one.

Did you know that it's illegal to operate one which has all its games set for even odds and payouts all the time... a sort of non-profit casino, for "hellry"? (Where to even apply for such a licence?)

Quote: Garnabby

"Dice setting" can be very-easily dismissed by a few observations of simple physics.
What can't be even somewhat-controlled? Vibrations, drafts, abnormal drag of a non-stream-line object, air- temperature and pressure, coriolis force, type and condition of all the materials involved, number and placement of all objects on a table, breath and heart -rates, body-temperature (eg, sweating), local gravitational fluctuations, etc. Could even a machine under lab-conditions quickly much replicate any previously-correlated results, once dismantled and moved to another such location? And surely not the complex subjective physical and psychological vagaries of most casino-goers, especially the imaginative ones who seem to only "get better" the more they lose.

You're missing something rather significant. The back wall the dice hit, air currents, phases of the moon, duck farts within a ten mile radius, etc. are all randomizing elements. When you add a randomizing element to a biased outcome, the bias remains.

If you reread my original post, I attempted to impart a spin to the dice that would be strong enough to persist until they came to rest. That spin would persist even after the dice were reflected off the back wall. What is confusing you is that the true significance of the unusual trajectory is NOT the dice's movement along the X axis, but rather, their rotation around the Y axis.

I set the dice the same way every time. I always set them in the "don't come" area of the felt. I pick them up and toss them from there. I prefer to roll from the position next to the stick on the stick's left, but I always roll the dice with the hand closest to the stick.

Does it work? I don't have enough consistency in my motion to say I do it the same way each time, so I am not a "dice control" roller in any way.

I do enjoy reading the debate on this issue...

Quote: CrappedOut

It is quite a lonely experience to bet the darkside. Your pleasures come individually, when everyone around you is despairing. On the other hand, you never join in the generalized merriment that comes from a hot table. This amounts to the very antithesis of why I set foot into a casino - for entertainment. Yes I know the odds are very slightly better for wrong way bettors, but if I really followed the odds I would work to own a casino, and would never patronize one.

You're right. I'm very individualistic and I don't bet DP for the odds. I enjoy doing something different at the table than most. And I must admit there is a part of me that really enjoys quietly picking up my win as all of the rest of the chips get scooped off the table.

Quote: mkl654321

You're missing something rather significant. The back wall the dice hit, air currents, phases of the moon, duck farts within a ten mile radius, etc. are all randomizing elements. When you add a randomizing element to a biased outcome, the bias remains.

One from the start, the house-edge? Unlike in roulette eg, there can be no inherently-useful craps-table bias(es). Material defects in the dice eg, which are often and easily changed up, pose only another problem for a so-called A-P thrower.

The mathematical formulas for adding up the linear and non-linear deviations for such experiments, in theory, can be quite-complex but are almost always exponential. Sarcasm aside, many small details can thusly add up quickly... certainly nothing like, "Wrongs canceling out to make right." Eg, even super-computers programmed with well-proved, pure, meteorological models and data often fail to predict next month's overall weather, in practice. (In Canada over the past several years, successful financial analysts had thrice predicted a long-term, above-par dollar with the States... it didn't happen once, and nobody's commented.)

Quote: mkl654321

If you reread my original post, I attempted to impart a spin to the dice that would be strong enough to persist until they came to rest. That spin would persist even after the dice were reflected off the back wall. What is confusing you is that the true significance of the unusual trajectory is NOT the dice's movement along the X axis, but rather, their rotation around the Y axis.

Three axes of rotation and translation (in a non-static, non-closed system). Eg, spin is spin in any combination of those directions... and shall "persist until coming to rest". The problem is to which #'s, depending on those positions throughout the throw. And because no one can predict with significant accuracy in which way(s) any throw shall diverge, there is also no way to likewise predict which other-than-tried-for outcome. Loss of control of the positions of the #'s nullifies the applying of that rotation to direct the throw in another way. That's why they tell us to "pump the brakes" over icy patches, train pilots how to (try to) avoid/recover from a "death spiral", etc.

Anyway, the persons with the expertise to possibly accomplish such feats wouldn't be wasting their time on such games, much less the "well-engineered" casinos who sponser those. It's 1000 times easier to devise and maintain those games otherwise unbiased than to play "catch up". Much like eg, we all have a bigger reading vocabulary than spoken. (We can easily recognize, given some help, what's often only on the "tip of our tongues".)

EDIT: To put all this a better way, each dot on a die will rotate many times further than the die, itself, will move until coming to rest. So how on earth is one going to have the dots ending up near where one wants, when even a tiny distance one way or other has the die turned around completely?

mkl,

You are following the rules when throwing, so you shouldn't be experiencing any heat at all -- as long as the dice are hitting the back wall, you shouldn't be getting any scrutiny for anything. Every casino believes that the back wall sufficiently randomizes dice rolls and therefore your throw should not matter, no matter how many points you make.

If the box person is looking at the dice, it is standard practice for them to do so after a number of points have been made. It could also depend on the casino that you go to as well. Some like to sweat the money and to somehow believe that breaking up the game has an effect on the outcome.

But this goes to you as well. I'm thinking about the momentum change of dice when they hit the back wall. Assume for a second that you have no x momentum at all and all of your dice momentum is in the y direction, meaning that the outside numbers remain outside when the dice hit the wall.

So what happens when the dice hit the wall? First off, there is an immediate momentum change which can be equated based on the angle that the dice hit the back wall. If the back wall was flat, there would be change only in the y direction (provided that the angle of your throw was zero degrees). The back wall is not flat however, at all. In fact, the only place where it is flat is on the very end of the diamonds. Therefore, the effect of the back wall is to impart some change in momentum in the x direction, creating spin to the left and right. The energy of the dice is then reduced by the air resistance, the back wall, and finally, the craps table itself. Because the back wall imparts spin in the x axis, the table will also introduce more spin in the x direction. With the dice now off axis because of spin on both axes, you get a truly randomized result. And because you are importing a strong energy into your throw, the only thing that energy can do is to have more bounces which means more randomness.

Might I suggest that you are just lucky?

Quote: boymimbo

So what happens when the dice hit the wall? Might I suggest that you are just lucky?

I don't know enough about the physics to be certain, but it would seem to me that if an object is rotating around one axis and moving along another, and it hits a stationary object and deflects, what is altered is the vector of movement, not the RELATIVE angle of rotation---that rotation/spin will still be perpendicular to the new vector of movement. Now, some of that energy is converted into a y-axis spin that partially, but not totally, offsets the original x-axis spin; the object is now "tumbling" rather than just spinning. But the effect of the original x-axis apin remains, due to the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum.

In any case, I freely admit that I don't have nearly enough trials to draw any definitive conclusions. I also realize that the scrutiny I've been getting is just due to casino paranoia--if somebody is winning, he's probably cheating, since nobody wins in OUR casino (so they reason). I've had good results, not so good that I want to sell the kids and move to Vegas, but interesting nonetheless.

Quote: mkl654321

I don't know enough about the physics to be certain, but it would seem to me that if an object is rotating around one axis and moving along another, and it hits a stationary object and deflects, what is altered is the vector of movement, not the RELATIVE angle of rotation---that rotation/spin will still be perpendicular to the new vector of movement. Now, some of that energy is converted into a y-axis spin that partially, but not totally, offsets the original x-axis spin; the object is now "tumbling" rather than just spinning. But the effect of the original x-axis apin remains, due to the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum.

In any case, I freely admit that I don't have nearly enough trials to draw any definitive conclusions. I also realize that the scrutiny I've been getting is just due to casino paranoia--if somebody is winning, he's probably cheating, since nobody wins in OUR casino (so they reason). I've had good results, not so good that I want to sell the kids and move to Vegas, but interesting nonetheless.

It's counter to everything I've faced while setting and winning. Most of the time I've gotten compliments from the Pit. They like to watch and they seem to enjoy it, and I tip well when I'm shooting well. I usually do it quickly, and I have never in many years been asked to stop setting or "speed up" my throws. It seems that most of them like the game too, and while the casinos' policies have no problem with the setting, I'm sure some are curious.

Some magicians can throw playing cards with great accuracy. So, exerting control over something with lots and lots of practice is possible, even something not very aerodynamic as a playing card. And a couple jugglers do odd things like juggle a chainsaw, a watermelon and a golf ball (another example of good hand/eye control).

However, I'm not seen one incorporate a craps roll as a demonstration that they can manipulate dice to extent needed to use it in a game. Although… perhaps it can be done, but not to the degree that would impress an audience.

I'm trying to think about your backspin. How can you ensure that your spin does not have any y axis rotation? Just because you whip them with backspin at the back wall doesn't mean you don't have any y axis spin in that roll. And when it does hit that back wall, momentum will transfer according where the dice hits the pyramids. My thoughts is that the more energy in your throw, the more random it will be.

Quote: cclub79

It's counter to everything I've faced while setting and winning. Most of the time I've gotten compliments from the Pit. They like to watch and they seem to enjoy it, and I tip well when I'm shooting well. I usually do it quickly, and I have never in many years been asked to stop setting or "speed up" my throws. It seems that most of them like the game too, and while the casinos' policies have no problem with the setting, I'm sure some are curious.

These examples provide a useful illustration of casino management. Recently I was at a casino in West Virginia (of all places), and a guy was pressing the six and eight and eventually reached the max of $500 and was hitting it. I have never seen a more enthusiastic boxman. He was slapping fives with the shooter, jumping out of his seat, etc. Later, I came back on a different shift, shot a bit myself, and made four unique points. The boxman started checking the dice, telling me to hit the back wall (I throw short when I'm nervous sometimes), etc.
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Now, which method is going to entice the winner to come back to that casino and lose his winnings there, rather than somewhere else?

Quote: rxwine

Some magicians can throw playing cards with great accuracy. So, exerting control over something with lots and lots of practice is possible, even something not very aerodynamic as a playing card. And a couple jugglers do odd things like juggle a chainsaw, a watermelon and a golf ball (another example of good hand/eye control).

However, I'm not seen one incorporate a craps roll as a demonstration that they can manipulate dice to extent needed to use it in a game. Although… perhaps it can be done, but not to the degree that would impress an audience.

Perhaps the reason it's called magic, buskering, etc, with the concomitant build-up and juxtaposition? There's a lot of kung fu stuff in the movies, but in real life, martial artists know better than to challenge someone with a knife or handgun unless it's absolutely-necessary.

Persons who have trained since childhood, and who would be the first to admit there are known limits... even for them. In particular, i recall the retired stage- magician and mentalist, "The Amazing Kreskin" having remarked something like, "There is no such thing as hypnosis, only some very-suggestible persons." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreskin )

Quote: teddys

These examples provide a useful illustration of casino management. Recently I was at a casino in West Virginia (of all places), and a guy was pressing the six and eight and eventually reached the max of $500 and was hitting it. I have never seen a more enthusiastic boxman. He was slapping fives with the shooter, jumping out of his seat, etc. Later, I came back on a different shift, shot a bit myself, and made four unique points. The boxman started checking the dice, telling me to hit the back wall (I throw short when I'm nervous sometimes), etc.
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Now, which method is going to entice the winner to come back to that casino and lose his winnings there, rather than somewhere else?

I see that every weekend in Reno...eventually you learn which boxmen are just assholes, and which actually like the game of craps (one boxman flat out told me he hated craps and hated people who THOUGHT they could shoot with some skill)

Quote: boymimbo

I'm trying to think about your backspin. How can you ensure that your spin does not have any y axis rotation? Just because you whip them with backspin at the back wall doesn't mean you don't have any y axis spin in that roll. And when it does hit that back wall, momentum will transfer according where the dice hits the pyramids. My thoughts is that the more energy in your throw, the more random it will be.

I throw with the palm down, and the dice set so that they are side-by-side, with the inner faces touching. Then I release the dice with a sharp upward motion of the wrist.

It doesn't matter if there is any Y axis rotation or not, so long as the X axis rotation is still predominant---in theory, enough asymmetrical rotation to establish even a mild bias would be enough to affect the outcome significantly. And the more radial energy--i.e., the faster I throw the dice, the larger the randomizing element; that's why I try to put as much of the total kinetic energy in the spin as possible.

This kind of throw is actually quite difficult to execute, and one thing that's helped me in this regard is my extensive Frisbee experience--the wrist action and release are not dissimilar. To give you an idea of how the dice behave, there have been half a dozen occasions where I short-threw the dice (i.e., didn't hit the back wall, either by accident or design), and the dice hit the felt and STOPPED. One time, I did that to make my point of hard ten, and I swear the boxman nearly had a stroke.

Wow- if I actually thought I could control the dice, I would today, no, yesterday, set up a table and roll say, 10000 rolls trying for a defined point, say, a 4. Then I would count how many 4's I hit versus how many 7's. And I would decide if I had a positive EV playing craps. If I did, I would keep my mouth shut and go from casino to casino until I had enough to retire. No one is throwing you out of their casino because you are taking the house's money at craps.

Quote: mkl654321

I throw with the palm down, and the dice set so that they are side-by-side, with the inner faces touching. Then I release the dice with a sharp upward motion of the wrist.

It doesn't matter if there is any Y axis rotation or not, so long as the X axis rotation is still predominant---in theory, enough asymmetrical rotation to establish even a mild bias would be enough to affect the outcome significantly. And the more radial energy--i.e., the faster I throw the dice, the larger the randomizing element; that's why I try to put as much of the total kinetic energy in the spin as possible.

This kind of throw is actually quite difficult to execute, and one thing that's helped me in this regard is my extensive Frisbee experience--the wrist action and release are not dissimilar. To give you an idea of how the dice behave, there have been half a dozen occasions where I short-threw the dice (i.e., didn't hit the back wall, either by accident or design), and the dice hit the felt and STOPPED. One time, I did that to make my point of hard ten, and I swear the boxman nearly had a stroke.

I have played craps for a while now, and experimented with dice-setting and a controlled throw. I believe the keys to the process are delivering the dice in very close proximity to one another, and with spin. I don't support the Golden-Touch Craps authors/publishers in any way, but it is a book that explains things very well. Here is how I test myself...when setting the dice along the standard 6-1, 5-2 axis, the only way to seven-out is by throwing a 3-4 if you keep them on axis. If I then seven-out with a 3-4, I am satisfied with the seven-out despite the 'loss.' Some days good, some days bad.

Quote: SOOPOO

Wow- if I actually thought I could control the dice, I would today, no, yesterday, set up a table and roll say, 10000 rolls trying for a defined point, say, a 4. Then I would count how many 4's I hit versus how many 7's. And I would decide if I had a positive EV playing craps. If I did, I would keep my mouth shut and go from casino to casino until I had enough to retire. No one is throwing you out of their casino because you are taking the house's money at craps.

If you bet big only when you are shooting, and you show a consistent profit over even a short period of time, you can bet that you will come under severe scrutiny. At the very least, you will be barked at to not "set the dice". And believe me, if you are winning this way, they WILL throw you out. You just have to hope that that is ALL they do.

For that reason, I've never bothered to explore this any further. I've gotten so many frowny faces just by making three or four points in a row, and been admonished so many times to not throw the dice this way or that, that I feel it's a certainty I would be tossed before I tossed enough tosses that I would be tossed enough money so I could toss my day job.

If someone would buy me a casino crap table, I'd be happy to test this method empirically, just for the fun of it.

For that reason, I've never bothered to explore this any further. I've gotten so many frowny faces just by making three or four points in a row, and been admonished so many times to not throw the dice this way or that, that I feel it's a certainty I would be tossed before I tossed enough tosses that I would be tossed enough money so I could toss my day job.

If someone would buy me a casino crap table, I'd be happy to test this method empirically, just for the fun of it.

Really?! Where do you play? If you are hitting the backwall pyramids like you say when you describe your throw, then I have NEVER seen the casino care how you throw. Unless you take too much time to set up or you throw short. Even when you throw short they are not so concerned that you are a controlled throw dice setter. They are looking for dice sliders. (for which they will remove you from the casino or end your roll at the very least)

Quote: wrongway

For that reason, I've never bothered to explore this any further. I've gotten so many frowny faces just by making three or four points in a row, and been admonished so many times to not throw the dice this way or that, that I feel it's a certainty I would be tossed before I tossed enough tosses that I would be tossed enough money so I could toss my day job.

If someone would buy me a casino crap table, I'd be happy to test this method empirically, just for the fun of it.

Really?! Where do you play? If you are hitting the backwall pyramids like you say when you describe your throw, then I have NEVER seen the casino care how you throw. Unless you take too much time to set up or you throw short. Even when you throw short they are not so concerned that you are a controlled throw dice setter. They are looking for dice sliders. (for which they will remove you from the casino or end your roll at the very least)

I'm with Wrongway. I have played Craps about every other weekend (mostly in AC) for the past 10 years and have set the dice, and always bet a little more when I'm shooting. However I've seen people bet the min when they aren't shooting, and bet a lot when they are. That's common practice for lots of people. I have never seen anyone backed off for setting, or being asked to leave the table for hitting 4 or 5 points. As I said earlier, they are usually excited by the action. Big winners go home and tell everyone about the game, and get uninterested passersby to care about it too. Granted, though I have thousands of hours at the tables, I'll readily admit my observation is not scientific. The only time I see people get "barked at" is when they are throwing the dice way too recklessly, usually because of drunkenness (but not always). I'd like to make a new thread with a poll: "You've been setting the dice and just made 4 points...do you get heat or "Congratulations" from the floor?"

Quote: cclub79

I'd like to make a new thread with a poll: "You've been setting the dice and just made 4 points...do you get heat or "Congratulations" from the floor?"

Good question. As I said in another thread, it's about 50/50 in my estimation. And I don't even set the dice.