Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 25th, 2015 at 12:39:16 PM permalink
No, I have no issue with the OP - the issue and annoyance is with the card room and their slop.

The attention to detail in procedure, for both the management and dealers, is usually a thousand times as strict with casinos, - especially the larger chains, and it has to be. (The account was akin watching people drive on the wrong side of the road and on the highway, or watching people prepare your food under the most of unsanitary conditions. I would say something about a dangerous food prep kitchen in a restaurant.)

We require the blackjack dealers who, after hitting the cut card at the end of the round, split the slug of the remaining deck, and then split that slug into three, to plug the deck sitting in the discard rack in three areas. Takes two seconds to do, and it thwarts shuffle tracking. Don't do it, and either the dealer pays a visit to the shift office, or a shuffle-tracking team may make a mint.

On UTH when using machines, the community cards are slid to the right, so that the bottom card is the first flop card, and the top card is the river. There are progressives that count wins based on the hole cards + flop only, and if I were a player denied a big win from wrong procedure, I would call gaming, plain and simple. The cards are also slid along the felt to prevent hole carding, and yeah, if a dealer gets blisters, he protected the game.

If a major chain operator ran their places otherwise, the losses would be in the millions. If a shareholder, I wouldn't be happy.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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August 25th, 2015 at 12:54:37 PM permalink
Let me cut thru the noise.

For the perspective of a typical non-advantage player (which, I believe was the perspective of the OP), then the unique / odd deal described doesn't matter.

But for the perspective of a rules guru like Dan, or surveillance, or Gaming Control, or anyone who is worried that a dealer or casino that doesn't follow procedure might be cheating the players, then it matters a lot.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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August 25th, 2015 at 12:59:52 PM permalink
There are no set rules on how this game is dealt except the casinos own procedure. Firekeeper fans the community cards from river up.
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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 25th, 2015 at 1:20:45 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

There are no set rules on how this game is dealt except the casinos own procedure. Firekeeper fans the community cards from river up.




What there has to be, are consistent rules to produce consistent game results. So there are set rules.

The procedures that constitutes a flop on one deal have to match the procedures producing the flop between deals.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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August 25th, 2015 at 2:34:59 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

What there has to be, are consistent rules to produce consistent game results. So there are set rules.

The procedures that constitutes a flop on one deal have to match the procedures producing the flop between deals.


I agree within each casino. But a different casino may and can deal it completely different. That's my point.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 25th, 2015 at 4:16:37 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I agree within each casino. But a different casino may and can deal it completely different. That's my point.



Very fine. Even the official rules of play for Ulimate Texas Hold 'em Progressive (WA) states that "The Dealer will follow the [standard] House Procedure for dealing the game." This is where Internal Controls come in, and why they have to be tight: if a scenario occurred where Gaming agents were called to a property when a player claimed he flopped a Royal, where the three community cards that made his Royal were #3, 4, and 5 on the board, and that the dealer simply went the wrong way in dealing the community board, the player may win his case if not defined to a "T". And the difference between the 5% of Jackpot (7-card hand Royal) and 100% of jackpot (flopping the royal), at $200,000, is $190,000 on this game. A big nut for a casino to pay out and a case for a lawsuit, and certainly a huge amount for one regular player. Players can pay off mortgages and people can lose their gaming careers over this stuff, and it happens.

We've seen and discussed gaming lawsuits here from newspapers and media over precisely this kind of thing, and other scenarios that are similar arguments over dealing procedure and "who's really at fault." If there is ever "two ways" about something that affects a player's winnings, it can be big trouble and money. Any gambling hall that is very sloppy can be asking for trouble.

And what if a player played at a different property that had different procedures for the very same game - and was denied a jackpot? If it blew up, that table game's performance reputation would take a big hit among its customers ("That game is trouble - remove it!" they'd say and do.) This issue isn't whether it is mathematically the same probability dealing in either direction, (it is), the issue is how the dealing procedures can affect a particular's hand's win result, versus dealt another way, and it does have an effect. Even regardless of the progressive, in games like UTH and the like, the change of direction affects countless hands and its early flop raises versus late minimum call bets on the river - for the same 5-card set of community cards, if presented in a different order.

As a game designer, I would have added ("codified") that the 5-card community board packet from the automated shuffler "as spread face-down from left to right from the dealer's perspective," so that the bottom cards of the packet are the first displayed with consistency (flop), and that there are NO two ways about it.

The more items a game designer doesn't define, and leaves to casino discretion, the more problematic the game may be - for the players, the operators, and gaming agents at the user end.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Pokeraddict
Pokeraddict
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August 25th, 2015 at 5:15:02 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I agree within each casino. But a different casino may and can deal it completely different. That's my point.



Even within the same casino there are variations. I've played the game in places where the dealers just did their own thing. I find that annoying and wonder if it would void a big pay when hit if the casino had a set way. I'd rather just play UTH on a machine.
mason2386
mason2386
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August 25th, 2015 at 6:06:45 PM permalink
If I am not mistaken, and I am alot, the OP stated he/she was in an Indian casino as a patron and was inquiring to the rule of dealing UTH. If that is correct, can it be agreed by all, that at Indian casino's, the proprietors sets the rules and we the gamer accept their rules by choosing to game there even if it goes against the common rules we regularly play by at non Indian casinos?
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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August 25th, 2015 at 6:07:30 PM permalink
Quote: Pokeraddict

Even within the same casino there are variations. I've played the game in places where the dealers just did their own thing. I find that annoying and wonder if it would void a big pay when hit if the casino had a set way. I'd rather just play UTH on a machine.


I've seen variations also. Very rarely do you see anyone complain. And I doubt it would void any big win.
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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 25th, 2015 at 7:10:51 PM permalink
Yes, it's rare. Most places have procedures down pat.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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