Casino Backgammon

I made a trip to O'Sheas this weekend specifically to see this Casino Backgammon game. Has anybody run an analysis on it, as far as what the house advantage is? I took one look at the layout of the game, the payouts of the game, and knew instantly that I did not want to play this game.

They had a nice looking woman there trying to get people to play the game, and, quite frankly, she was not very successful at getting people to put their money down. After I won some money playing craps, I went back over there. She was talking to a few guys trying to get them to bet. I decided to help her out. I made a bet, and yelled out, "This is the best game in the house! Can't possibly lose!" I proceeded to win my two bets. I made another bet, on the next point, and once again said, "Can't even lose at this game!", and won again. I think made another two bets, and lost. At which point, looking at my money, I said "$13 dollar win in 3 minutes. Can't lose here!" The woman was grinning while I was doing all this, and even though I walked away, the other guys were pulling money out of their wallets to try the game.

Anyway, the game seems very skewed in the house's favor, and I really can't think of any reason why you would want to play this game. While I haven't worked out the math myself, the odds seem horrible. If anybody wants my other impressions of this game, or why I don't think it will last, I'm happy to post my thoughts here.

Quote: konceptum

The game seems very skewed in the house's favor, and I really can't think of any reason why you would want to play this game.

Then why did YOU play it? Oh, wait. I think I know...

Quote: konceptum

They had a nice looking woman there....

:)




So what are the bets and rules?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

So what are the bets and rules?

I looked it up online, assuming it's the same game, and the simulated bet the site shows requires the dice to come up with a 3-3 minimum in order to win. The bet consists in whether the backgammon checkers will "jump" the bar or not. Since they are two spaces removed from the bar, and each dice moves one checker, you need to move each at least 3 spaces.

This si where it gets complicated, as the requirement for each die is 3 or more. A 5-2 shot loses, for example, so it's not ike you have to shoot a total of six or more. Each die should be looked at as independent from the other die.

I don't ahve a link, but look up casino backgammon in Google.

Link
Unless me and/or the calculater that comes with Windows is not working correctly the house edge is horrible.

I played it just to mess with the lady. I tried explaining to her that if she got some shills to stand around playing the game, it would entice others to play real money on the game. I don't know if she worked for the casino or for whoever is marketing the game.

Anyway, the game is supposed to resemble backgammon. The table layout looks like half of a backgammon table, with 6 points on each side of a Jump Bar. When starting, there are 2 pucks placed on Point 1, which is 2 spaces from the Jump Bar.

You have to make 2 equal bets, a Jump Bet, and an Out Bet. The Jump Bet is that you can get the 2 pucks over the Jump Bar with one roll of the dice. The Out Bet is that you can get the 2 pucks off the board within 2 rolls of the dice, with the caveat that if either of those 2 rolls are doubles (1-1,2-2,3-3,4-4,5-5,6-6), you can roll a third time.

Unlike what someone else wrote above, you don't need a minimum of 3-3, but rather a minimum of 2-2. The Jump Bar itself is not counted in the movement of the pucks.

If you win (either the Jump Bet or the Out Bet), then you have the option of playing on the next higher point. Each successive point is one point farther away from the Jump Bar, and thus harder to make, with successfully higher payouts.

The payout structure was, for the Jump Bets:
Point 1 --- 3 to 5
Point 2 --- 2 to 1
Point 3 --- 3 to 1
Point 4 --- 10 to 1
Point 5 --- 40 to 1

For the Out Bets:
Point 1 --- 1 to 1
Point 2 --- 1 to 1
Point 3 --- 4 to 1
Point 4 --- 5 to 1
Point 5 --- 9 to 1

There was also an optional Doubles Side Wager, which had to be made prior to the first dice roll of any point in play:
2 Non Equal Doubles --- 3 to 1
2 Equal Doubles --- 20 to 1
3 Doubles --- 100 to 1

If the shooter loses both the Out Bet and the Jump Bet or the shooter no longer wants to roll the dice, then the dice gets passed to the next shooter, who has to start over from Point 1.

Again, Point 1 would require a minimum first roll of 2-2 to win. Point 2 would need 3-3. Point 3 would need 4-4. Point 4 would need 5-5. and Point 5 would need 6-6.

When I initially looked at the payouts of the game, my thoughts were negative because, on the first Point, assuming you won both the Jump and the Out Bets, you would be risking $10 ($5 on each bet) to win $8 (3 to 5 on the Jump, and 1 to 1 on the Out). Other than the Don't Odds in Craps, Casino War, and Sports Betting, I couldn't initially come up with any other bets in the casino where you risk an amount to win less.

Last night, when running numbers in my head regarding Casino Backgammon, it does appear that the Jump Bet might have a positive player expectation. Thus, it must be the Out Bet that wins the game for the casinos. After all, if you risk $10, and only win $3, the casino is going to be happy. Players have the illusion that they won something, when in reality they are getting nailed.

This is the website on the brochure I brought home: http://casinobackgammongame.com/site/

EDIT: I hadn't looked at their website until just now. I see that the odds payouts that were actually being made in the casino are different than what is on their website. Further, some of the extra bets were not available. I don't know why there is a difference. I have the handout that was being given at the table, and if people want to see it, I can take some pictures and post them online.

Quote: miplet

Unless me and/or the calculater that comes with Windows is not working correctly the house edge is horrible.

You normally do great work miplet, but you opened yourself up to this one: I don't think you are working properly today!
;)

ways to win 6: 1
ways to win 5: 4
ways to win 4: 9
ways to win 3: 16
ways to win 2: 25

with the new payouts off the table from konceptum, I think there are player advantages on the Jump bets. On the combined bet with OUT, there will naturally be a house advantage. The out bets are harder to figure out, but I bet there is a backgammon page out there that has the probabilities of winning the off bets in 2 rolls.

Quote: konceptum

Unlike what someone else wrote above, you don't need a minimum of 3-3, but rather a minimum of 2-2. The Jump Bar itself is not counted in the movement of the pucks.

I swear I counted three spaces. Two before the bar, then the one past the bar. I may be wrong.

Just finished my own analysis. With the new payouts, there IS a definite player advantage on the Jump payouts. If it was possible to ONLY make Jump bets, we should all be down there cleaning up. With the wager pay table on the Casino Backgammon website, even the Jump Bets have a house advantage.

Analyzing all possible rolls wasn't that difficult, as there are only 15,156 possibilities. The easiest is if you don't roll any doubles. There are only 30 ways to roll non-doubles, so 30*30 = 900. If you roll a double on the first roll, then there are 2 more rolls, for a total of 6*36*36 = 7,776. Finally, not rolling a double on the first roll, followed by a double on the second roll, followed by a third roll: 30*6*36 = 6,480. Total rolls 6,480 + 7,776 + 900 = 15,156. Of course, you have to take into account the fact that the non-double rolls are going to happen more frequently than the double rolls.

OK. Assuming a $5 Jump bet and a $5 Out bet, I came up with the following expected losses for both the pay table as the casino, and the one on the website:

Point = 1
casino PT = -0.42931
website PT = -0.32073

Point = 2
casino PT = -0.63872
website PT = -0.2608

Point = 3
casino PT = -0.477
website PT = -0.727

Point = 4
casino PT = -0.29964
website PT = -0.43656

Point = 5
casino PT = -3.84774
website PT = -0.40584

These numbers are the expected loss. Sometimes I'm confused as to how to turn this into the house edge percentage, but I'm sure someone else can help with that. Also, the website starts with Point 2, and goes to Point 6, but the casino game has Point 1 going to Point 5. It's the same thing though, although the website methodology makes more sense to me.

Further calculations showed that there is a 26.2% chance of losing both bets on Point=1, 48.8% on Point=2, 67.6% on Point=3, 81.9% on Point=4, 91.5% on Point = 5.

Again, I think that the fact that you're going to win SOMETHING around 75% of the time when you're rolling the dice is what is going to attract some people to the game. And, more than likely, that something will be the Jump bet. But again, it's payout is so small, that it's overshadowed by the loss on the Out bet. However, since they push the Jump bet winnings to you at the time you make the Jump, people are going to be overjoyed by having received something, and will not really notice that they are, in fact, losing money over the long run.

For the Jump Bet, assuming a $5 bet on the jump bet, I calculated the expected gains/losses to be
Point=1
casino PT = +0.5556
website PT = -0.1389

Point=2
casino PT = +1.6667
website PT = -0.1111

Point = 3
casino PT = 0
website PT = -0.25

Point=4
casino PT = +1.1111
website PT = -0.2222

Point = 5
casino PT = +0.6944
website PT = -0.2778

Again, someone else turn these into house/player advantage percentages.

Final thoughts: for some reason, the casino or somebody decided that a different payout structured was needed. I can think of 2 reasons. One is that the payout structured as listed on the website seems highly confusing and prone to problems. The second is the concept of the casino accepting a loss on the Jump Bet, in exchange for a higher gain on the Out Bet. The website structure has a house edge for both bets, while the casino structure has a player edge for the Jump and a casino edge for the Out, but since both wagers have to be equal and both wagers have to be made, the combined edge is in favor of the house.

My advice? Find a casino running this game with the better casino payout table rather than the website table. Find someone playing the game, and ask if you can add money to his Jump bets, and collect winnings till the cows come home.

Nareed, the pucks start on the second space before the bar. You can see this on their website under "How To Play". Interestingly, though, if you watch through their Jump Bet examples, they make a mistake on the final play they show. They show the dice rolling 6-1, but they move the pucks 6-5. :)

Quote: konceptum

Nareed, the pucks start on the second space before the bar. You can see this on their website under "How To Play".

I'll take your word for it. Monday night I'm not usually at my best.

Quote: dwheatley

You normally do great work miplet, but you opened yourself up to this one: I don't think you are working properly today!
;)

ways to win 6: 1
ways to win 5: 4
ways to win 4: 9
ways to win 3: 16
ways to win 2: 25

I should avoid working the brain at 8am.

Quote: konceptum

I have the handout that was being given at the table, and if people want to see it, I can take some pictures and post them online.

I'd very much like to see the handout. If you can scan it and send it to me via the contact form I'd be happy to post it here.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a scanner. However, I took pictures of the brochure, and here they are. I took them on a high resolution. I can read the writing on my computer screen. If not good enough, I'd be happy to mail it to you.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc263/konceptum/backgammon/002.jpg[/img]
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc263/konceptum/backgammon/003.jpg[/img]
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc263/konceptum/backgammon/004.jpg[/img]
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc263/konceptum/backgammon/005.jpg[/img]
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc263/konceptum/backgammon/006.jpg[/img]
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc263/konceptum/backgammon/007.jpg[/img]

There is no indication on that handout of the correct movements when doubles have been rolled.

In backgammon, you move the number specified by the dice. I.E. Roll a 5-2, you can move any two checkers, one moves 5, the other moves 2, or you can move a single checker both 5 and 2. That part is fine.

However, when doubles have been rolled, you move any combination of FOUR moves. I.E. Roll a 3-3, and you get FOUR moves of 3 each. I suspect that this game only allows two moves of 3 each.

(Of course, a change such as this is no different than calling a game "Blackjack" even though it pays 6:5.)


So I went to the website to see if I could get the answer. http://www.casinobackgammongame.com/


The handout has the points labeled 1-5, but the website has them labeled 2-6. Based on the play, 2-6 is a more correct labeling.


Thier website is horrendous. There numerous spelling and grammar errors. On the "How To" page, you can click to get a simulator - complete with programming errors. The simulator only does the "jump" bet, only does it 5 times, and the dice are not random. And the last simulation is programmed incorrectly! The roll is 6-1, but the movement is 6-5!

Ya know, the more I look at it, the more F-ed up the inventor and/or distributor of this game is.

On their home page is a little image of the tabletop felt art. Click on it to see a larger size.

Note the payouts:
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/casino_backgammon_pays.JPG
They're different than what's printed on the handouts. Are they different than what's actually paid?

And "All other doubles 1 to 1" isn't on the handout at all.

In the text section of the website is this:
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/casino_backgammon_doubles.JPG
Notice how this says -1 to 1?

-1 to 1 means it's a loser. And that's confirmed by the sentence "The wager wins if the shootter rolls 2 or
more doubles for the given Point."

But it's confusing to the point where the guy that did the artwork screwed it up.

What does the artwork on the actual tabletop felt indicate?

Man, oh, man, I think my head is gonna explode....


Then I started to look for the Jump All and All Out descriptions, since they aren't mentioned on the handout at all.

Just read the paytables. Make sense, right?
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/casino_backgammon_all.JPG

Then, SLOWLY, read the text on the right. Do you feel a headache coming on?

It's not why I say, it's what I mean. :+)
Jump All - This wager must be at the at the beginning of a Shooter's turn.
The Player wins this wager if either 3, 4 or 5 of the Points win the "Jump" bet, otherwise this wager loses.

All Out - This wager must be made before the first roll of the dice at the beginning of a Shooter's turn.
The Player wins this wager if two or more of the Points win the "OUT" bet, otherwise this wager loses.
Ok, that was my understanding.

Oh, I understood what I *think* was implied.

It's just that, on top of the bad spelling and bad grammar, they have confusing and contradictory information.

The handouts are not bad at all, except for the complete lack of mention of the Jump All and All Out bets.

I *HOPE* that what the handouts contain, matches what's printed on the actual tabletop felt....

Thanks for the pictures of the handout. Here is a preview of my Casino Backgammon page. Please make any comments and corrections. I plan to make live likes at the WoO later today. I assume the Jump All and All Out bets do not exist at O'Sheas. I'm also going with the payouts in the handout posted above, which agree with the math report I was given. The mathematician, Eliot Jacobson, says there is a second report for an alternative set of rules. The official game web site represents a mixture of the two versions.

Quote: Wizzard

The official game web site represents a mixture of the two versions.

I guess that partly explains why my head is ready to explode.


---


About your page on this game:



The link to O'sheas doesn't work.

Quote: Rules section

Out Bar: The bar on the other side of the outer board. The goal of the second/third roll is to get both pieces over the Out Bar.

Either you labeled stuff incorrectly when you took the picture, or this description is incorrect.


Since only two checkers are used at a time, if you re-shoot the photo, show only two.


You talk about an "Odds" bet. That should be "Out" bet.

Quote:

9. If the player rolls doubles in the first or second roll, then he will be given a third roll, if at least one piece is still on the board.

Are you sure about that last part? It makes sense, until you consider the doubles bet. If the player gets both pieces off in two rolls, does that mean he no longer has a chance to improve his doubles bet payoff? That would affect the Doubles Bet Return table.

Heck, if that's right, then maybe you DO move four times when you roll a double.

After all, the player's chance of getting both off go way up with a third roll. So to just help the player get them off quicker, while reducing the chance of improving the doubles payout, could be a strategically wise tradeoff for the casino.

First, I can tell you, DJ, that on doubles, you only roll once. I grew up playing backgammon, and one of the first questions I asked the lady was how come you didn't get 4 moves on a double. Naturally, that would make the game too easy. I think the compromise of adding a third roll on a double is what suffices.

The bets on the handout I was given at O'Sheas are the only bets. There are additional bets on the casino backgammon website that were not available at the casino itself.

One problem I noticed, but not until after I had left O'Sheas, was that there was no location for the "doubles" bet. There were two big bars running around the field on which to place your Jump and Out bets, but no location for a doubles bet. The information for the doubles bet was posted on the handout, and a payout table was listed on the felt. There was even a place where the dealer could place a mark to indicate that a double had been rolled (ie, to track it for when it should be paid). However, there was no indication anywhere of where to put your bet for a doubles bet. Again, I didn't even think of it (because it was not a bet I would make) until after I had left the casino, but I do think it's a big flaw in the game.

I honestly do not think the game will last. It takes up quite a bit of space. It's a bit bigger than a blackjack table, but not as big as a craps table. it's probably about as big of half a craps table, or a tub, somewhere in that range. Thus, it's taking up a lot of space on the floor. Further, the game just isn't exciting. I suppose if you come from a place where backgammon is considered a national sport or at least is very popular, then I could see how this game might drag you in. But for everybody else, it's just not an exciting game. Further, while the game itself, in theory, is fairly simple, I think people were having a hard time understanding what was going on.

Sorry, just looked at the website. Most of it looks good. On the rolling of doubles, I do not honestly know if the player is given a 3rd roll if the first two rolls are sufficient to move the pieces off the board. IE, if starting from Point 1, the player rolls double 6 and double 6 again, the pieces would be off the board. Naturally, the only way the person could then hit the 3rd double bonus bet would be to roll again, but I do not know if they allow that or not.

Second, in the rules of play, I can only say that rules 10-13 are optional. Also, that the player has to lose both bets for the option to roll from higher points. If the player wins either the Jump OR the Out bet, he can choose to roll from the next higher point. However, he has the option of not rolling, and passing the dice to the next player. That related to the only strategy I developed. While the Point 4 has the lowest house edge, the Point 1 has the second lowest house edge. If you are the only player at the table, then after making your Point 1 rolls, you can opt to pass the dice, which means passing it back to yourself, for another Point 1 roll.

Thanks all for the comments.

I'm quite sure that you don't get to move 2x each die on doubles. The odds in Eliot's math report are commensurate with moving 1x only each die. I have also not seen anything that says you can move 2x.

You're right, it should have been "Out" bet, not "Odds" bet.

I rephrased the rule on a 3rd roll rule as "If the player rolls doubles in the first or second roll, then he will be given a third roll if any pieces are still on the board, or any player made the Doubles bet. " I'm pretty sure they wouldn't bother to role the dice if there were no bets outstanding.

Quote: konceptum

Second, in the rules of play, I can only say that rules 10-13 are optional. Also, that the player has to lose both bets for the option to roll from higher points. If the player wins either the Jump OR the Out bet, he can choose to roll from the next higher point. However, he has the option of not rolling, and passing the dice to the next player.

Can I rephrase that to say that the shooter continues to roll if he:

(A) Won either (or both) the Jump or Out bet, and...
(B) Wants to.

In other words, if you lose both the Jump and Out bet, then you don't get the choice.

I used to play a lot of backgammon. Over the holidays my cousins and brothers would play for hours by the pool or at the beach. I still keep a backgammon program in my PC and play it on occasion.

I don't think I'd play the casino version, though. It isn't backgammon, but rather a random chance game based on some rules of backgammon.

So how about straight backgammon tournaments? They don't even need dealers!

Quote: Wizard

Can I rephrase that to say that the shooter continues to roll if he:

(A) Won either (or both) the Jump or Out bet, and...
(B) Wants to.

In other words, if you lose both the Jump and Out bet, then you don't get the choice.

I believe that's the way it is done. It says on the handout I was given that "If the shooter loses both the Out Bet and the Jump Bet or does not want to continue rolling the dice..." Since I only played for an extremely short period of time, I can't verify if that's exactly the way it is done. At first, I remember thinking this was a strange thing. In the game of backgammon, of course, a winner is someone who gets all of his pieces off the board, first. Thus, it seemed weird to me that if the person doesn't make it off the board, they get to continue rolling as long as they won the Jump bet (the either/or situation). However, after seeing the numbers, I now know that it's still enviable to the casino to get the person to continue at the higher point, since more money will be fed their way.

Sorry if I couldn't find this posted elsewhere. I'm interested in how the dice are rolled. Is it on a board with a cup? Along a craps style table by hand? If someone could let me know I'd appreciate thanks.
-BW

When I played at O'Sheas, the table was about the size of a half-sized craps table, with similar look and feel to it. The dice were rolled by hand.

Is there a pyramid wall at the end you have to hit?
Thanks.
BW

Yes. Again, it's basically the same as a craps table. I only rolled the dice 6 times, and always hit the back wall, so I didn't run into any situations where I was asked to hit the back wall, but I'm sure they would require you to do so.

Fun with numbers although I might have an error or 2 +:)

point	lose both	win only jump	win only out	win both
1	12205	15718	2051	16682
2	22786	11298	3134	9438
3	31536	6679	3456	4985
4	38246	2828	3226	2356
5	42709	450	2651	846

I visited O'Shaes two days ago to have a look at Casino Backgammon. They had lovely models standing there to help explain the rules and cheer when the player won. I added a couple pictures to my Casino Backgammon of the game.

Quote: Wizard

I visited O'Shaes two days ago to have a look at Casino Backgammon. They had lovely models standing there to help explain the rules and cheer when the player won. I added a couple pictures to my Casino Backgammon of the game.

ru saying your old picture wasnt good enough?

i noticed u got a fullsize backgammon board. ive been looking for someone to play backgammon with out here. if youd like to play for $1, $2, or $5 a point sometime or just for fun, shoot me an email.

I'm proud of that picture of my own backgammon set. Speaking of which, I accept your challenge. However, I'd probably have to ask you to come out my way to Summerlin. If you're still interested, drop me a message through the "contact" page.