Pai Gow Poker Dispute
How would you set the hand if dealt it?
We asked a number of players and dealers and the TTTJK/A* seemed to win our nonscientific poll by about 3:2.
Straights, flushes, straight flushes, and royal flush:
...
•With full house: Use full house rule.
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Golden Nugget:
Straights, flushes, straight flushes, and royal flushes: Always play straight or flush in the high hand except play as a two pairif one of the following:•Any two pair and an ace singleton.
•Pair of jacks and pair of 6's.
•Pair of aces and any other pair.
With a six or seven card straight or flush put the highest hand possible in frontwhile maintaining the straight or flush in back. Play staight or flush over straight flush to improve front hand to jack or better. Play staight or flush over royal flush to improve front hand to king or better.
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Foxwoods:
•Straight, Flush, Straight Flush:
With No Pair: Place the two highest cards in front that will leave any complete hand in back.
With One Pair: Place highest possible two cards (pair or no pair) in front that will leave any complete hand in back.
Exception: With an Ace and a pair of Kings, Queens, Jacks or 10s, play the Ace in front and pair in back if front hand can be improved.
With Two Pair: Play according to two-pair strategy.
With Three of a Kind: Place complete hand in back, pair in front.
•Full House: Put highest permissible pair in front.
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Full house always better way to play. They would play two pair rule anyway, that is if the hand was TT8JK*A, they would play it AA TT.
Quote: boymimboFull house always better way to play. They would play two pair rule anyway, that is if the hand was TT8JK*A, they would play it AA TT.
I can make an argument that the pair rule doesn't really apply here. A) The two pair rule says to sacrifice a straight in order to put a pair on the top. In this case you can keep the straight and still have a pair on top. B) There are not , technically, 2 pairs in the hand.
Its also not clear that the full house is always a better play. My gut tells me that the difference between TT and AA on the top is very small. However the difference between middle trips and the highest straight could be more significant. Keep in mind that, in Pai Gow, it is easier to make a straight than trips.
A possible counterargument is that it is impossible to have this hand without the joker, so removing the joker from the pack makes it a lot less likely that someone else will have a straight.
Quote: bigfoot66I was playing Pai Gow Poker at an Indian casino and recieved a hand of Kings and Queens and was counting my winnnings in my head. And then the dealer flipped over TTTJK*A (no flush possibility). She set her hand as TTTKJ, A*. I asked to see the house way since I thought that TJ*KA, TT would be a better play and I had a financial interest in the outcome. They showed me the house way and it did not clearly address this hand. They ended up taking my money and giving me double my bet in non-negotiable chips so that the game could continue, which was ok. There was a pow wow in the pit with 4+ suits about how to set the hand and it lasted well over half an hour. They decided that TTTJK/A* was the proper way to set it and would change the house way as such. If you ask me they should just add the line: If a hand may be played as a straight with a pair on top or trips with a pair on top, play the way that makes the stronger top.
How would you set the hand if dealt it?
We asked a number of players and dealers and the TTTJK/A* seemed to win our nonscientific poll by about 3:2.
Given no clear rules its a Full House (w/ Aces in the 2-card hand: it out ranks the Straight as other possible hand). House played corectly. Had there been clear indication of the play, then I side with the House Way as printed. As it stands by your account, they had wiggle room and played the best poker-hand ranking.
Upon lookup at WoO appendix 1... TTTxy/AA scores as EV=+0.875. AKQJT/TT scores as EV=+0.877 0.919. EDITED
As a player, I'd consider 10s up.
Quote: 98ClubsUpon lookup at WoO appendix 1... TTTxy/AA scores as EV=+0.875. AKQJT/TT scores as EV=+0.877.
Aha! I knew that the straight was a better hand.
Quote: WizardI hope PaiGowDan finds this thread. Meanwhile, my interpretation of the various house ways is that you go by the highest possible five-card poker hand you can make. In this case a full house, so follow the full house rule, and play the pair of tens in the low.
I think you mean play the aces in the low.
Quote: bigfoot66I was playing Pai Gow Poker at an Indian casino and recieved a hand of Kings and Queens and was counting my winnnings in my head. And then the dealer flipped over TTTJK*A (no flush possibility). She set her hand as TTTKJ, A*. I asked to see the house way since I thought that TJ*KA, TT would be a better play and I had a financial interest in the outcome. They showed me the house way and it did not clearly address this hand. They ended up taking my money and giving me double my bet in non-negotiable chips so that the game could continue, which was ok. There was a pow wow in the pit with 4+ suits about how to set the hand and it lasted well over half an hour. They decided that TTTJK/A* was the proper way to set it and would change the house way as such. If you ask me they should just add the line: If a hand may be played as a straight with a pair on top or trips with a pair on top, play the way that makes the stronger top.
How would you set the hand if dealt it?
We asked a number of players and dealers and the TTTJK/A* seemed to win our nonscientific poll by about 3:2.
Here's something scientific:
1. The correct set of the Broadway Straight with a pair of 10's has an EV of +85.03% - versus 81.57% for the incorrect and lesser split full house setting, which is really trips plus a pair as it is set in PGP.
2. If the house way does NOT compare or break out cut-off the points between two settings of trips or better, - both having a pair up - the default "correct" setting is the strongest high side hand that maintains any pair on the low side. Notice that with both a straight and a flush, the strongest low side is chosen between the two because it has to be specifically spelled out to be played. This is because otherwise it will default to the strongest high hand between the two choices unless detailed otherwise. Trips with a pair (a split full house) versus a straight or better with a pair is the highest hand with a pair, unless detailed. Now, the pit bosses excuse is to treat it like a full house because that is mentioned in the house way, - but the hand is really "trips + Pair" versus "straight + pair", because that is really the final hand setting comparison.
3. A "pow wow of suits discussing something" in a card room pit is consistently a Kangaroo Kourt, a coin flip among clowns, and this was indeed the case. The approach is consistently about paying everyone off with a buffet comp or some promo chips and moving on, as opposed to spending resources on dealer training and game analysis to get it right.
4. Now, they can still rightfully make the call as a full house to be split, as the house way did "trap" that hand set scenario as an officially defined item, while the straight with full house mixed in is an unaddressed/undefined item, and so was ignored. A better house way would have included straight or flush with pair as "always play if 9's or better" before hitting the full house handling, but house ways have to be simplistic to be processed by burnt out human dealers.
Quote: bigfoot66I think you mean play the aces in the low.
Oops. Indeed I did. I owe ten push-ups for that.
I'd still be interested to know how to properly interpret a house way in writing. The Foxwoods house way is typical. It says how to play full house hands and straight hands, but which set of rules do you follow if you can play both?
Using my pai gow poker appendix 1, here is my casino EV of each play, assuming the dealer is banking:
| High | Low | High PR | Low PR | Win | Push | Loss | House EV |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| AQKJT | TT | 0.966111 | 0.952117 | 0.966111 | 0.032266 | 0.001623 | 0.964569 |
| TTTKJ | AA | 0.874877 | 1 | 0.874877 | 0.125123 | 0 | 0.874877 |
PR = Power Rating = Probability of Winning
House EV = Pr(win) - 0.95*Pr(loss)
So, mathematically, playing it as a straight hand is better. However, I'd still like to know how casinos interpret their own house way rules in writing. One day a dispute like this is going to go to Gaming.
Quote: bigfoot66I was playing Pai Gow Poker at an Indian casino ... There was a pow wow in the pit
I'll forgive you for the pun.
Quote: WizardOops. Indeed I did. I owe ten push-ups for that.
I'd still be interested to know how to properly interpret a house way in writing. The Foxwoods house way is typical. It says how to play full house hands and straight hands, but which set of rules do you follow if you can play both?
Using my pai gow poker appendix 1, here is my casino EV of each play, assuming the dealer is banking:
High Low High PR Low PR Win Push Loss House EV AQKJT TT 0.966111 0.952117 0.966111 0.032266 0.001623 0.964569 TTTKJ AA 0.874877 1 0.874877 0.125123 0 0.874877
PR = Power Rating = Probability of Winning
House EV = Pr(win) - 0.95*Pr(loss)
So, mathematically, playing it as a straight hand is better. However, I'd still like to know how casinos interpret their own house way rules in writing. One day a dispute like this is going to go to Gaming.Quote: bigfoot66I was playing Pai Gow Poker at an Indian casino ... There was a pow wow in the pit
Casinos interpret their house ways to see if a "hand setting condition" was simply met or satisfied by the house way condition, and select and carry out that solution, in a "fall-through" logic sheet methodology.
It's very similar to very simple computer programming, like a big IF/ELSE or CASE statement within a WHILE loop to be carried out by the dealer:
WHILE dealer is dealing THEN
BEGIN
* deal hand
* players set their hands
* dealer sets hand:
* IF pai gow hand...
* IF one pair....
* IF two pairs
* IF simple trips
* IF straight or flush (- and this this is where it should have had "with a full house or trips' exception handling, but that house way didn't include it, so it fell through to the full house handling section right below...)
* IF full house, split pair into low hand
* etc....up to five aces....
.....
dealer follows this house way fall-through logic all memorized, and does his/her job. The pit boss "pow wow" determined that the dealer met the house way criterion for a full house, - and as the house way was written.
This is how it is set up for the dealer to process hands...in fact, ALL strategy games involving a house way are set up like this.
Because the hand was both a full house and a straight, they had the arguably "gaming specific mandatory" action of playing it by the closest described/covered line item of the house way, which was to split up a full house from the initial hand; the straight with a pair scenario was unaddressed, and so the hand "fell through" and was then processed as a full house to be split. Technically, A straight with a pair beats a three of a kind with a pair, but because the full house hand is viewed as a whole hand pre-set, and because their house way didn't handle "straights versus trips/Full house," it falls through and in to the full house logic, and is covered by it.
Quote: PaigowdanIt's very similar to very simple computer programming, like a big IF/ELSE or CASE statement
So, since the low hands are listed first, I would interpret your answer as follows:
If pai gow then ...
Else if pair then ...
Else if two pair then ...
In this case the hand would have been played as a straight, since that condition was met first.
However, you then go onto write...
Quote:* IF pai gow hand...
* IF one pair....
* IF two pairs
* IF simple trips
* IF straight or flush
Where are the else statements. By this logic, the dealer would play it like a full house because that condition is met last.
By the way, it is a frequent programming error (by me at least) to forget the else statements when you want only the first set of instructions to qualify to be carried out.
Quote:Because the hand was both a full house and a straight, they had the arguably "gaming specific mandatory" action of playing it by the closest described/covered line item of the house way, which was to split up a full house from the initial hand; the straight with a pair scenario was unaddressed, and so the hand "fell through" and was then processed as a full house to be split. Technically, A straight with a pair beats a three of a kind with a pair, but because the full house hand is viewed as a whole hand pre-set, and because their house way didn't handle "straights versus trips/Full house," it falls through and in to the full house logic, and is covered by it.
Now you've completely lost me. You're now saying to following the set of rules that most closely fits the given situation?
So is it:
A) Go through the house way like an if/else if/else if/else if ... / end program?
B) Go through the house way like an if/if/if/if ... / end program?
C) Follow the rule that most specifically addresses the given situation?
IMHO:
as I see it there are 12 ranks worthy of ranking in Pai-Gow Poker, some because of the unusual nature of the game;
1.) Five Aces
2.) Quads with Triple
3.) Quads with Pair
4.) Str-Fl / Flush / Straight as a group (or choice)
5.) Quads
6.) Full House with Pair
7.) Full House or Two Triples
8.) One Triple
9.) Three Pairs
10.) Two Pairs
11.) One Pair
12.) High Card (Pai Gow hand)
Quote: Canterbury Park Flush ruleSix and seven card flushes play the highest two cards possible in the Low Hand.(Exception: If two pair are with the flush, the two pair rule will apply.)
If the dealer is supposed to go by the situation closest to the top of the list (a two pair), then there would not need to be a reason to explicitly mention the exception.
In other news, I asked Heather at Vegas Aces about this hand. She used to deal pai gow poker. Her answer was that the house ways are not "set in stone" but more of a guideline. She said whenever she got a confusing hand she would call the floor and then just set the hand as instructed.
Quote: WizardSo, since the low hands are listed first, I would interpret your answer as follows:
If pai gow then ...
Else if pair then ...
Else if two pair then ...
In this case the hand would have been played as a straight, since that condition was met first.
Yes! - but the dealer sees the FH first through her poker eye as a non-straight hand, ignoring the straight clause, or sees the condition as a "Straight WITH a Full House" and so ignores the clause and gives a negative to the condition of a "not a simple straight, - and she falls through to full house condition processing (when a computer wouldn't), setting the hand as a full house. In other words, the human dealer falls through the lower conditions when higher conditions are present and seen first, - unlike a computer. Mike, Let Me Tell you, trying to get a programmer (Steve How or Charles Mousseau) to adapt a house way logic sheet to run on a simulation isn't easy because of "human processing modes and logic intention" versus real computer logic obeisance.
I don't know how many times I said "Steve/Charles - you got the logic precedence wrong! The data is WAY off!!!" and they say "But it's your house way, and the computer is doing what you told it to do!!!"
Quote: WizardHowever, you then go onto write...
Where are the else statements. By this logic, the dealer would play it like a full house because that condition is met last.
By the way, it is a frequent programming error (by me at least) to forget the else statements when you want only the first set of instructions to qualify to be carried out.
Now you've completely lost me. You're now saying to following the set of rules that most closely fits the given situation?
So is it:
A) Go through the house way like an if/else if/else if/else if ... / end program?
B) Go through the house way like an if/if/if/if ... / end program?
C) Follow the rule that most specifically addresses the given situation?
Mike, the DEALER logic is "C" - the closest - and from lowest and most common [hand] to highest, but the programming and math logic is from highest to lowest. Human algorithmic thinking - especially when dealing a game - is to go straight to the most known and most matching condition after the process learned, causing screw ups.
Don't you know humans are POOR at following instructions? House way training is the WORST part of dealer training!!!
With programs written in a low-to-high hand fashion, kind of mimicking human procedure - the programmatic conditions are described as "Pai Gow hand AND NOT ANY pair/straight or better", etc., going all the way up to Five Aces, - and it's a chore to nail it.
Quote: Paigowdan, but the programming and math logic is from highest to lowest.
Do you mean highest on the page (pai gow) or highest in poker rank (five aces)?
When programming a simulation run for PGP games, quite often the RAREST and highest hands are process and checked and possibly eliminated first, - for ease and "cleanliness" of programming, in a Five Aces down to Pai Gow hands manner. This is so in programming, even though it is the opposite of human dealer House Way formatting, which starts with the low Pai Gow hands, then up to one pair handling, then up to two pair handling, etc., - so that introduces the problem of the human dealer is spotting the highest hand present via the human poker eye first, - doing a 'top-down" processing of a casino house way that was designed with bottom-up logic.
In programming Pai Gow poker simulations, in contrast to House Way writing, it is often done top-down, from checking for 5-Aces down to pai gow hands, because you save additional "hand-level checking" on the low-hand checks that was already flagged above this way.
As such, this downward hand process logic simplifies "provably correct" constructs in programming. Logic for a Pai Gow hand check requires a check for no straight present, no flush present, etc., when no pair is present, if checking upwards. If you pick off the high hands first, your low hand processing coding is that much simpler because you need less exception for each lower rank handling.
But there are situations where "multi-path" hands cause problems in Pai Gow Poker computer simulation runs: two pairs, trips or full houses ("pair-based") hands that also contain or are mixed in with straights or flushes require detailed "CASE STATEMENT" logic that's a pain in the ass to program whether you're going top-downward or low-upwards in hand strength because you have to trap these mixed/hybrid hands at both the upper end and lower end of the range where they can occur, and insert complex and accurate exception handling to implement the house way properly.
Interestingly, these multi-path hands is not only where the house way shows weakness if overly simple, but where humans misplay these same hands to counter-act weak house ways. Apparently, Humans are dumb as are computers, which is why we calc overall strategy errors into math reports, in addition to optimal play. Computer simulation runs also can show where the house way is weak in these circumstances by comparing the optimal EV play (by cycling through all possible hands in these circumstances and trapping-off the best EV hand setting), and comparing it to the house way setting's EV.
In a well-written Pai Gow Poker House way, most times an accurate grey-area cut-off point such as "Always Split Jacks and 7's" in two pair handling can be refined with a clause "Split NO two pairs if an AK can be put in the low hand," - because that'll give you essentially a three-pair hand with de facto 2's on top, and I have done that with an "Optimal but still easy one page" house way," which I use for Pai Gow Play gambling when I play. And it looks very much like the Stations Casino Group basic house way with a few changes. Other changes include "Keep low pairs 6'sand less with a King" and "Keep for house together with AK/AQ if pairs are 4's or less" to beat the straight and flush hands you'll go against. Also "accuratized" was Quads handling, where you reduce the rank from similar two pairs holdings by one low-hand side rank, - as the quad-lock on the high side has such value in comparison to a two pair "kept-together high" hand. All of these rare hand situations that are misplayed by "perfunctory play" add up to 0.3% or so of house edge, and are easy to memorize/codify.
Quote: Wizard
Quote: bigfoot66I was playing Pai Gow Poker at an Indian casino ... There was a pow wow in the pit
I'll forgive you for the pun.
I'm glad someone caught that :) thanks for all the responses. I used to think I was kind of smart but your discussion with Dan is flying over my head. I'm also starting to think I should have protested more when they took my money.
Quote: Wizard
In other news, I asked Heather at Vegas Aces about this hand. She used to deal pai gow poker. Her answer was that the house ways are not "set in stone" but more of a guideline. She said whenever she got a confusing hand she would call the floor and then just set the hand as instructed.
One of the suits tried to tell me the same thing. I was incredulous. How can they claim that there is not a set in stone set of rules that the dealer must follow when setting his hand? Does this mean if a dealer doesn't see that he has a straight, sets his hand as a pai gow, and pays me turning a push into a win, that I have won the money legitimately and am entitled to keep it? After all, if he had played the straight he would have had a lower low, and the house way is just a guideline.
Quote: bigfoot66How can they claim that there is not a set in stone set of rules that the dealer must follow when setting his hand?
Sadly, that is pretty much the case. Pai gow poker was a badly-designed game from the beginning, with a confusing and overly long house way to that stupid rule about A2345 being the second highest straight to player banking. It would not be hard to clean it up but nobody wants to be the first. As I said before, I suggested doing so at the Venetian, but that idea was quickly shot down without explanation.
Quote: Wizardthat idea was quickly shot down
if you will forgive me for finding humor here, I am envisioning this happening to most of your ideas there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pe36UMRkRbk#t=156
Quote: Wizard
In other news, I asked Heather at Vegas Aces about this hand. She used to deal pai gow poker. Her answer was that the house ways are not "set in stone" but more of a guideline. She said whenever she got a confusing hand she would call the floor and then just set the hand as instructed.
I 100% disagree with Heather. I believe that if asked, any casino pit boss would say the house ways are set in stone. That is not to say that the less than bright person who makes the final interpretation might not make an error. Or that the written house ways did not take every situation into account, or were worded ambiguously. I play the hand mentioned with the high straight/tens if I am player, trips/aces if I am banker.
If I recall, the Seneca house way would play the straight with the tens. I believe this type of hand happened once while I was playing.
Further complicating the game itself is that Banker can (should) make a different decision than Punter.
After all the House as Banker must compare up to six hands, and win/push as many as possible.
The Punter has only one opponent, and tries for the win (Straight vs Trips in the 5-card)
while compromising the low hand a little (AA vs. TT)
To the Punter Logic TT is a darn good low hand, not redily beaten, with a Straight in the high hand.
To the Dealer logic, get them Aces in the Low hand when you can.
Quote: SOOPOOI 100% disagree with Heather. I believe that if asked, any casino pit boss would say the house ways are set in stone.
Of course the floor will say the house way is set in stone. If the floor said, "My interpretation of this confusing document is to play the hand this way." If that went against the player such a wishy-washy explanation would likely lead to the player filing a dispute with Gaming.
The original post mentioned a pow wow among the suits. If the house way were set in stones they wouldn't need to have such debates to determine how to play the hand.
In other words, the house way is a vague document but you'll never get a floorman to admit that.
they don't need to admit it, as their behavior and befuddlement clearly reveal all. As you mentioned, it is possible to clean up the game; the question is: Do they have the wherewithal to do so? Generally not.
Quote: WizardThe original post mentioned a pow wow among the suits. If the house way were set in stones they wouldn't need to have such debates to determine how to play the hand.
I am blown away by this. When the suit at the Indian Casino told me this I confidently told him that this sort of thing MIGHT be true in the crazy world of Indian Gaming, it would definately not fly in Nevada. The dealer must follow the house way. Turns out I was wrong.
Quote: beachbumbabsFWIW, the places I have played most often set the hand to put the highest low hand up, so they would play the aces/trips. 2 places for sure had it in writing. YMMV.
This is good to hear, as a well-defined house way method is a precious thing.
The method of placing the highest low hand is used because they don't assume a strong low hand of a pair to be present for both 5-card sides;
I have also seen the house way rules of:
1. if a straight or flush with a three-of-a-kind, then play the straight or flush with a pair or ace in the low hand. And...
2. if a straight or flush with a full house, play the straight/flush if a pair of 9's or better for the low hand can be played, else play the highest low hand.
An example, one houseway I know of does not follow any two-pair rule when a straight flush is present. You may only break it up if you can keep a straight or a flush. So even if you're dealt Ad-2d-Joker-4d-5d-4c-5s, you would play A2*45/45 instead of the infinitely stronger 44552/AA.
To account for this, I think you'll find most houseways contain the catch-all "Floor Decisions Are Final" rule, giving the floor full power to rule on any strange hand that isn't addressed by the houseway.
Quote: bigfoot66Quote: Wizard
In other news, I asked Heather at Vegas Aces about this hand. She used to deal pai gow poker. Her answer was that the house ways are not "set in stone" but more of a guideline. She said whenever she got a confusing hand she would call the floor and then just set the hand as instructed.
One of the suits tried to tell me the same thing. I was incredulous. How can they claim that there is not a set in stone set of rules that the dealer must follow when setting his hand? Does this mean if a dealer doesn't see that he has a straight, sets his hand as a pai gow, and pays me turning a push into a win, that I have won the money legitimately and am entitled to keep it? After all, if he had played the straight he would have had a lower low, and the house way is just a guideline.
Quote: SOOPOOQuote: Wizard
In other news, I asked Heather at Vegas Aces about this hand. She used to deal pai gow poker. Her answer was that the house ways are not "set in stone" but more of a guideline. She said whenever she got a confusing hand she would call the floor and then just set the hand as instructed.
I 100% disagree with Heather. I believe that if asked, any casino pit boss would say the house ways are set in stone. That is not to say that the less than bright person who makes the final interpretation might not make an error. Or that the written house ways did not take every situation into account, or were worded ambiguously. I play the hand mentioned with the high straight/tens if I am player, trips/aces if I am banker.
If I recall, the Seneca house way would play the straight with the tens. I believe this type of hand happened once while I was playing.
When dealers are hired they are given a packet with the "House Way".
These are the rules for the more common hands and those rules are usually set firm for that particular casino. But remember that every casino is different, so not all of the rules will be the same, meaning the "House Way" is not set-in-stone.
For example, some casino's two pair rule say to split Jack's and 6's
While other casinos say to split Jack's and 7's
And when it comes to a hand that is not mentioned in those packets and has multiple options available, like the one below:
Then the dealer is required to call over the floorman and the floor will determine how to play the hand by using his best judgment. Because the decision is transferred over to a person, the final outcome is different every time.
Everybody, meet Heather. She not only runs an outstanding site for casino dealers, Vegas Aces, but is one of the coolest chicks I have ever met in my life.
You can see Heather in my Jenga pictures. She is the one wearing glasses.
Thanks for contributing Heather and I hope you'll stick around. The dealer perspective is always welcome here.
Quote: WizardEverybody, meet Heather.
Hi Heather! Welcome aboard.
Quote: VegasAcesThen the dealer is required to call over the floorman and the floor will determine how to play the hand by using his best judgment. Because the decision is transferred over to a person, the final outcome is different every time.
As a player I have a lot of trouble with this. This is a dumb example but in, say, blackjack, could the dealer decide that he is going to stand on soft 17 this time when I just happen to have a 14? After, thats a rule that varies from house to house. Hell, it varies from table to table.
How do you interpret the brouchure I found on this awesome website: http://www.vegas-aces.com/Root/players/players/pages/paigow%20poker/instruction%20manuals/Dover%20Downs%20Casino%20PaiGow%20Poker.pdf
It appears to be a rack card from a game and the line reads "Dealer must set his hand according to the house way". I have been places where this is made more explicit and there is language somewhere on the table to the effect of, "Dealer must set hand according to house way. If the dealer mis-sets hand, hand will be reset." I have no problem with this either. At the same session where the hand in question came up, I also had a straight that I did not see and I played the hand as a pai gow (and turning a win into a push. It is still painful). If a dealer had done the same thing with his own hand and started paying when a floorman walked over, I would not begrudge the house for resetting the hand and taking back money. They can't play both sides of the coin.
The reason that this is so troubling is that the floorman could not possibly make the decision about how to set the hand in a disinterested manner. Players commonly discuss their hands with the dealer, ask each other for advice, show off bonuses, etc. Further, by virtue of the fact that a player is arguing with how the hand is set it becomes clear which way would benefit the player. On a "wobbler" situation like this, the hands appear equal to the trained eye (and are mathematically close to equal). How can we expect an agent of the casino, which has just a great a financial interest in the outcome as the player, to be an impartial arbiter?
Quote: WizardHey Heather, welcome to the site!!!
Everybody, meet Heather. She not only runs an outstanding site for casino dealers, Vegas Aces, but is one of the coolest chicks I have ever met in my life.
You can see Heather in my Jenga pictures. She is the one wearing glasses.
Thanks for contributing Heather and I hope you'll stick around. The dealer perspective is always welcome here.
hahaha :-D Thanks!
Quote: DJTeddyBearHi Heather! Welcome aboard.
Thank you!
Quote: bigfoot66As a player I have a lot of trouble with this. This is a dumb example but in, say, blackjack, could the dealer decide that he is going to stand on soft 17 this time when I just happen to have a 14? After, thats a rule that varies from house to house. Hell, it varies from table to table.
How do you interpret the brouchure I found on this awesome website:
It appears to be a rack card from a game and the line reads "Dealer must set his hand according to the house way". I have been places where this is made more explicit and there is language somewhere on the table to the effect of, "Dealer must set hand according to house way. If the dealer mis-sets hand, hand will be reset." I have no problem with this either. At the same session where the hand in question came up, I also had a straight that I did not see and I played the hand as a pai gow (and turning a win into a push. It is still painful). If a dealer had done the same thing with his own hand and started paying when a floorman walked over, I would not begrudge the house for resetting the hand and taking back money. They can't play both sides of the coin.
Blackjack is more "set-in-stone" then pai-gow poker is, but I see your point. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what the players (or employees) think because each casino is different and is run in a different way. It doesn't help that floormen make decisions based on the situation instead of on strict rules and each dealer has their own bad habits and ways of dealing.
Thanks! :) That brochure is just one of many different casinos. Each one is slightly different but unique to that casino.
Like I said before, the more common hands have a set way to be played (like if you have a pair or two pair) but the more interesting hands have no firm rules.
BTW, if you set your hand wrong, feel free to mention it to the dealer/floormen. Depending on the person, they might set your hand the correct way and let you off with a "warning". I've had that happen at my table plenty of times through out the years.
Quote: WizardThe dealer perspective is always welcome here.
Does this mean that PaiGowDan is no longer our favorite dealer?
Quote: VegasAcesWhen the dealer is required to call over the floorman and the floor will determine how to play the hand by using his best judgment. Because the decision is transferred over to a person, the final outcome is different every time.
I'm a little confused. Are you saying that it's like this at all casinos? Wouldn't different ones have different policies?
I don't really understand why gaming allows a game where the rules are not clearly specified somewhere.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDoes this mean that PaiGowDan is no longer our favorite dealer?
I'm a little confused. Are you saying that it's like this at all casinos? Wouldn't different ones have different policies?
I don't really understand why gaming allows a game where the rules are not clearly specified somewhere.
lol, since every casino is different, having different dealers explain how the casino industry works is better than having just one.
Yes, every casino is different and since there are some pai-gow poker hands that are not in the dealers packet of "House Ways" then the floor must make the final decision.
The Gaming Commission does a good job with what they have, in fact they're the best in the country at the moment. But they're not perfect and they don't go over every single possibility with a fine tooth comb. Especially with all of the different card combinations possible with pai-gow poker.
Quote: VegasAceslol, since every casino is different, having different dealers explain how the casino industry works is better than having just one.
I was joking. (Note that I actually don't dislike PGD, as many assume that I do, even if we have our disagreements, so I hope no one is insulted by my comment -- it was meant in jest)
Quote:Yes, every casino is different and since there are some pai-gow poker hands that are not in the dealers packet of "House Ways" then the floor must make the final decision.
The Gaming Commission does a good job with what they have, in fact they're the best in the country at the moment. But they're not perfect and they don't go over every single possibility with a fine tooth comb. Especially with all of the different card combinations possible with pai-gow poker.
The funny thing is, from what I've heard people say over at the game-inventors corner over here, it sounds like if PGP were a new game today, no casino would be interested and gaming would never approve it.
I will restrain myself from commenting on the gaming commission...
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDoes this mean that PaiGowDan is no longer our favorite dealer?
Heather, to give you some context, PaiGowDan is known for some rather extreme points of view sometimes. Most famously, he has argued tenaciously that card counting is cheating. Dan is a good friend, but I think we would also welcome a, shall we say, second voice for the dealer point of view around here.
Knowing Dan as well as I do (how many of you have had dinner in his high-rise condo?), I think it's safe to say that he's a very honorable guy.
But his biggest claim to fame is that he invented EZ Pai Gow.
Quote: VegasAces
Blackjack is more "set-in-stone" then pai-gow poker is, but I see your point. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what the players (or employees) think because each casino is different and is run in a different way. It doesn't help that floormen make decisions based on the situation instead of on strict rules and each dealer has their own bad habits and ways of dealing.
BTW, if you set your hand wrong, feel free to mention it to the dealer/floormen. Depending on the person, they might set your hand the correct way and let you off with a "warning". I've had that happen at my table plenty of times through out the years.
I think this is the part that bothers me. Everything in the casino is highly regulated: You can't touch the cards with two hands. You must not hand money directly to the dealer, lay it on the table. You must place your rainbow bet with the highest denomination chip on the bottom. I have played at casinos where I would place a $5 chip on the $1 progressive "light" bet and the dealer would make change but was not allowed to place the dollar chip progressive bet, I had to physically place the chip there. At another casino there was 8 inches of plastic around the outer edge of the blackjack table between the felt and the padded armrest: You had to store your chips on the plastic, they were not allowed on the felt. They regulate which languages can be spoken at the table. You can't look at your cellphone at the table. I've been told that I could not stand behind a chair on a low table and play, that I had to be seated before they would book my bet.
For all the rules around my behavior in a casino, it is just amazing to me that the house claims that they are allowed to (poorly) design a vague set of rules in a very popular game and then simply use their best judgement sometimes. They get to offer whatever game they want according to whatever rules they want. If they offer a poorly designed game that's their fault, not mine, and they shouldn't get to keep my money if their is ambiguity.
I don't have a problem with the house edge, I have a problem with designing a set of rules poorly and then resolving the issue in their own favor despite the fact that setting the hand the other way was mathematically correct, as the house did in my situation. They later also refused to reset my hand for me when I missed the straight and set the hand in such a way that both hands were inferior.
In fairness to the gaming industry, the floor personel here were far less generous than I have usually experienced. Almost universally in the past the floorpeople at any casino I have played at have found in my favor in almost any time there was a controversy.
I am an ex-dealer, dealt for years including craps, which absolutely ruined me for life on the view that "players are always right and honorable."
I'm not too crazy about most pit employees, but I often and clearly see the casino point of view, and from lots of experience.
Edit: And around this place, not letting a shot-taking player get away with a blatant shot is often considered a casino abuse and an extreme position.
Quote: bigfoot66In fairness to the gaming industry, the floor personel here were far less generous than I have usually experienced. Almost universally in the past the floorpeople at any casino I have played at have found in my favor in almost any time there was a controversy.
So, stop playing there.
Remember that you are the customer and they are competing for your business, not the other way around. If another casino gives you better customer service, go play at the other casino.
Quote: DJTeddyBearDan also has the opinion that if a dealer overpays you, you should return the excess. When that subject come up, he takes a LOT of criticism. (Let's NOT start that argument here, OK?)
Knowing Dan as well as I do (how many of you have had dinner in his high-rise condo?), I think it's safe to say that he's a very honorable guy.
Thanks, much appreciated. I am considered "extreme enemy camp" around here. (I should insert here a link to a Mengele photo....)
Quote: DJTeddyBearBut his biggest claim to fame is that he invented EZ Pai Gow.
And the Free bad beat/Heads Up Hold 'em.
Quote: PaigowdanThanks, much appreciated. I am considered "extreme enemy camp" around here. (I should insert here a link to a Mengele photo....)
I don't think anyone else knows what a Mengele is, including me. How about this one instead?
First hand... Just me and the dealer... I'm dealt either straight with no top or tens with an ace up top. I play tens with the ace. The dealer has aces with a kq up top. She starts to pay me, and I inexplicably tell her we pushed, and she thanks me..... From that point on 'variance was on my side'.... I did not lose a hand for over half an hour, even pushing on 5 lop lop hands.... I kept seeing PaiGow Dan applauding me! As soon as I put my first tip down for the girl.... bam.... I lost the first hand... She made a few more mistakes, one which turned a $150 loss for a player into a push... but I remained mute....
I had this hand..... AAA7722... one of the aces was the joker.... I played it AAA22/77 to the chagrin of everyone at the table.... the dealer had Q high paigow... I point out the game PGD invented, mention how happy I was not to be playing it at that moment.... The dealer got two more Q high pai gows in the next 5 hands..... 3 in 6!
The whole table was winning when I left, I ended up over $300 playing an average $20 per hand maybe total 3 hours of play.
Quote: SOOPOOI had this hand..... AAA7722... one of the aces was the joker.... I played it AAA22/77 to the chagrin of everyone at the table.... the dealer had Q high paigow...
How did that chagrin the table? Would they have put two of the aces up?
