Free Craps lessons can be worse than worthless

From the thread, https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/1507-craps-goodbye-boxman/

Quote: rudeboyoi

dont most casinos have free craps lessons at specific times? ive never actually seen one taking place but have seen signs for them.

Change 'most' to 'some'.


I've heard rumors that they have them in AC, but I've never seen a sign about it. I don't see them in CT either.

I saw plenty of signs in Vegas, but they are usually at wierd times.


I've finally attended one. At the Stratosphere about 5 years ago.

Since I already knew a lot, I didn't expect to get anything out of it. I stood in the class more out of curiosity, and to kill half an hour in a casino without gambling. (The trip wasn't going well...)

It was very badly run. They tought kinda the way I would expect dealer training to be taught, and neglected some very basic things.

For example, experienced players understand the relationship of where they stand to where their place/come bets sit in the numbers squares. It's second nature. But to a beginner, that's huge. It wasn't even mentioned at the class.

On the other hand, did you know that place bets are really just put bets below the table minimum, with 4x/4x/5x odds to bring it to the minimum? I never knew! But they explained it in excruciating detail.

Does that mean at a $10 10x table, I could have a $1 put with $10 odds? Unfortunately, although Stratospher is 10x, I didn't think to ask. I suspect the answer is 'no' - which makes their detail of place=put irrelevant and wrong.

If I ever see another class, and they mention the place=put thing, I'll be sure to ask! (Or, if it's a 3x/4x/5x house, how they get away with the 4/10 at 4x. Yeah, I'm a smart-ass!)

To be fair, I have definitely attended a session where the Field was heavily emphasized as "the" bet to make for its potential 3-1 return and easy level of understanding.

Many casinos have made whatever dealer is scheduled to be at a craps table at 11:00am the Craps Instructor. Doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about, doesn't mean he is a capable instructor. In the "old days" (which for me means way, way long ago) the classes all took place in one room away from the casino floor and the instructors were experienced at it and good at it.

Sure they can't cover every darn nuance and sometimes its daunting for a newbie to even look at a craps layout. One elderly gentlemen took one glance at the big table with all those markings on it and he hustled himself and his wife right out of the place on the spot!

Tuscany requires any dealer at an empty table to provide a fully instructive lesson on demand. So really the lessons take place anytime its slow and you find a dealer who is doing nothing else. This doesn't mean he is a good instructor but it does mean that the lesson will take place at your convenience. Most other casinos schedule the lessons for weekdays around noon and often also M-Th around 4 or 5pm. Don't expect lessons on Friday or Saturday or Sunday. You might get luck but don't expect it.

Does it hurt? No. As you said, its a break from the real world of money actually being on the line. Sometimes you get a sweetener, sometimes you don't. Once I was just wandering by and joined the tail end of a lecture and the instructor recognized me but when I asked for a brochure anyway he handed it to me and it was nice to read through it about some of the other games. Later I took it up to the room and my companion leafed through it. It was an interesting diversion and a break from my gambling.

I recommend them, even if some casinos do it rather poorly.

In 2006, I rode the "Fun Train" from Sacramento to Reno. On the way up, there was a free craps class on the train, given by a casino or several casinos. The instructor recommended making a Field bet as a hedge on the comeout, or an Any Craps bet. Of course, the casinos love these hedges, because they add expected loss and damp variance.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

a more interesting question to discuss is if you had to teach a class about craps, how would you go about it?

Quote: goatcabin

In 2006, I rode the "Fun Train" from Sacramento to Reno. On the way up, there was a free craps class on the train, given by a casino or several casinos. The instructor recommended making a Field bet as a hedge on the comeout, or an Any Craps bet. Of course, the casinos love these hedges, because they add expected loss and damp variance.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

i dont think this is a terrible strategy to teach a new player. it will result in a lot of pushes.

$5 passline and $5 field bet on the comeout roll.

then just wait for a decision to be reached if a point is established.

and if you lose the field bet on a 5, 6 or 8, you at least have a decent chance of making your point.

Quote: rudeboyoi

a more interesting question to discuss is if you had to teach a class about craps, how would you go about it?

Here's a follow question for Rudeboyoi. If I were teaching a class about craps, am I working for the casino or am I trying to teach players about the best odds in the house.

If I were not working for the casino just trying to help a novice out, I would tell them:

1. To ignore the majority of the bets and the layout.
2. Play the pass line or the come only, with as much free odds as the feel comfortable.
3. Explain that the free odds bet is the only bet in the house where the casino has no house advantage.
4. If they want action faster, play the pass line and place the 6 and 8. I would suggest not pressing the bets on the 6 and 8 at first until they get comfortable with the game.
5. The reason why I wouldn't talk about the don't pass and don't come to a new player is that it is a little more confusing and players tend to like to win when the table is winning. Since most players play the pass line, it makes it easier for people to understand.
6. Don't forget to tip.

If I were working for the casino I would add things like:

1. If you like a lot of action quickly, you will see the more experienced craps players and high rollers bet all of the numbers with a place bet. They will say, "All the way across for $54." This is one of the fastest ways to make money quickly when you have a hot shooter.
2. The field bet is a great place for a new player. (Especially for a casino where the 12 pays only 2x). If you hit one of those numbers you get paid. If you hit a 2 or a 12 you get paid double!
3. A lot of the more experienced craps players and high rollers also like to make bets on the middle section. After all, where can you win 15 for 1 or 30 for 1 odds? These may seem like long shots, but old time gamblers love to make these bets.

Yes, I would be a little more evil if I was trying to maximize the casino's money.

Quote: gambler

2. The field bet is a great place for a new player. (Especially for a casino where the 12 pays only 2x). If you hit one of those numbers you get paid. If you hit a 2 or a 12 you get paid double!

Instead of being told to position her Field bets directly in front of her, many female players will be told they should put their chips on the two or the twelve so as to get paid double or triple. The crew decides on whether to recommend the Two or the Twelve by noting which is the longer reach for her!

Of course if she is wearing a high neckline, they don't bother with that nonsense.

One noted Hollywood actress of long ago when the stickman slid the dice only partway towards her so she would have to really bend over to reach for them, took one out and said "If you want to look, go ahead and look, but slide the dice all the way to me! She rolled for twenty minutes that was both entertaining as well as profitable for those at Binion's Horseshoe that day.

So perhaps girls get to learn craps more promptly than we realize.

Quote: rudeboyoi

a more interesting question to discuss is if you had to teach a class about craps, how would you go about it?

I have actually put together a "lesson plan" for what I called "Bank Craps 101"; I presented it to a group of colleagues at T-Mobile in Atlanta when I was working there, and then recently to a couple of friends who were interested. In Atlanta, I used an overhead projector connected to my computer, so I could illustrate via WinCraps, and here at home I used my own craps layout, cheques and stick.

The outline starts with an illustration of the 36-combination pyramid and how it breaks down into 21 distinguishable results and just 11 basic-number outcomes.

Then I present the three basic types of bets: one-roll, x-before-y and contract.

I use the bet on the 2 to illustrate how the casino builds an edge in by paying less than the true mathematical odds:


I then illustrate the Field Bet and show why, even though you have more numbers that win than lose, there are 20 losing COMBINATIONS vs. 16 that win. I also distinguish between triple-12 and double-12 bets, and how that changes the edge.

Next, I describe a couple of the "x-before-y" bets, place 6 and lay-no-4, and how these bets resolve.

Finally, I get to the contract bets. These are complicated by having two ways to resolve, either on the first roll or after a point is established. I describe the rules on shooting the dice, and illustrate the "perfect 1980" integer distribution of outcomes. From this, we derive the 1.414% edge, the probability of having a point, of winning/losing a point and of sevening out.

For the don't bets, I show why the "push" is necessary to keep the edge with the house, not the player.

I introduce the subject of variance, our only chance of winning, and the concept of the standard deviation, illustrating how to derive it with a sample of simple numbers, then the Snake Eyes bet. I list the SD of various bets.

Next I talk about sessions of 50 bets, showing roughly how long it takes to resolve 50 bets of various types. I show how the expected value (loss) increases linearly with the number of bets, but the SD increases only with the square root of the number of bets.

I show how the relationship between the expected loss and the standard deviation determines how lucky one has to be to overcome the house edge, showing a graph with 1, 2, 3 SD marks on either side of the ev.

I also show how to figure the "breakeven point" between sessions of two different bets, where a high-variance betting strategy will win more with very good luck, but win less and lose more otherwise.

Finally, I describe the "free odds" bets and how they add variance without increasing the expected loss. I show how minimizing the amount bet on the flat part and maximizing the odds part also minimizes the ev/SD ratio and gives the player the best chance to come out ahead, while also increasing the "penalty" for bad luck.

Next, I describe the principle of "hedging", which is designed to reduce volatility. I show how it adds expected loss while reducing variance, and why this also reduces the probability of coming out ahead, but also reduces losses in bad sessions. I introduce the "low-ev hedge", a system developed by a rec.gambling.craps poster named Stacy, which involves making $5 pass and $16 DP bets, then taking odds on the pass points. I compare that method with just a PL bet for the same average amount and a PL bet with odds resulting in roughly the same average bet amount.

I talk about "Money Management", which for me is mostly just "don't gamble with money you cannot afford to lose". I describe how a small session bankroll (or loss limit) increases the number of losing sessions but reduces their magnitude. I describe the concept of "risk of ruin" and how you can determine roughly what is the probability of busting your bankroll before a certain number of bets (or a time limit, estimated from numbers of rolls). I show that "Money Management" can change the shape of the graph, but its mean will always be edge * action. The same idea applies to win goals: more winning sessions of reduced magnitude.

Finally, I talk about how changing the amounts of bets in some systematic fashion introduces more variance, because the order of wins and losses becomes an important factor. I show how progressing bets after a win introduces a right skew, i.e. more losing sessions but bigger wins, how progressing bets after a loss introduces a left skew, i.e. more winning sessions but larger losses and how a regression system "locks up" wins and produces more winning sessions of smaller magnitude.

Obviously, this is much more than just an introductory lesson, and I have never presented the whole thing.

When I presented this in Atlanta, an interesting exchange took place. My boss, who is pretty much of a genius when it comes to anything having to do with computers and billing systems, asked me why I didn't recommend making bets on number that hadn't shown for a while. He believed that, since the probability of no sevens for six rolls is just .333, that the probability of a seven increased as non-seven rolls went by. It took me a while to get him to see why this is not so. It brought home to me why this kind of reasoning is so prevalent. This guy has a double degree in Computer Science and Applied Mathematics, yet he believed in the Gambler's Fallacy. Fortunately, he was also intelligent enough to see why it is not so.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quick story on short sticking:

I was at a craps table standing next to this older jovial, fat gentleman and his date for the evening, a large breasted woman about half or a third of his age.

Anyway, the stickman began to short stick the woman, slowly at first, but then further and further with each roll and really made her reach for the dice. Of course it was fun to watch and everyone, including her date, seemed to be enjoying themselves.

After holding the dice for about 15 or 20 minutes with a good roll, the dice was about to be passed over the fat gentleman. He calmly proceed to unbutton the top 3 buttons of his dress shirt, exposing his large man boobs which rivaled his date's, and shout at the dealer, "I'd like to see you short stick me! Send the dice down!"

The stickman turned bright red and I was practically on the floor laughing my head off. Half the table didn't understand the joke, but the rest of the dealer, the boxman, and the floormen couldn't stop laughing either. It took about 4 or 5 minutes to restore order.

One of my funniest crap experiences.

The one and only time I attended one of the Craps classes, the dealers explained the Iron Cross method of betting, and how it was the best way to bet at the table.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

For example, experienced players understand the relationship of where they stand to where their place/come bets sit in the numbers squares. It's second nature. But to a beginner, that's huge. It wasn't even mentioned at the class.

I agree with this. I think it should be something explained to novice players. Many times I've had someone come up to the table while I'm playing and ask how the dealers can possibly keep track of all those bets on the table. I think a little simple explanation would make it easier to understand. Plus, I think it's important that all players be able to know what bets they have and keep track of their own bets, not only to make sure they get paid when they are supposed to, but also to keep away the inevitable, "Do I have a 6? How about an 8? What about the 9?"

Quote: konceptum

I think it should be something explained to novice players.

I'd love to see a return to the days wherein the school was a separate area and the instructors were experienced instructors. Just as some casinos give a FREE Bingo sheet at their first game of each day, I think the casinos should look at the free schooling as a loss-leader. Free Bingo cards along with free coffee provide the casino with a prompt return on their investment. Free gambling lessons provide the casino with a return that is in the future. Of course free lessons provide the return to other casinos as well. Perhaps that is why casinos are hesitant to make the lessons be more formal and longer. I'd adopt goatcabin's syllabus but start out with a few jokes and a general intro to the layout that diminishes fears by lopping off one end of the table completely, then lopping off the center bets. I'd even have position numbers for the players and an enlarged point-number-box showing the proper positions for bets to migrate to. Add a few jokes, a pitcher or two of fruit juice and coffee, a formal statement that no alcohol would be served because this is a formal school and we really do want you to learn what is going on. Sure people are there for a festive vacation, but I think most gamblers would appreciate an introduction to gaming that wasn't just the usual quick dose of pablum that takes place now.

After talking with my friend, I realize that I mistakenly said I attended a craps lesson. The actual fact is that, during the middle of the day, my friend and I walked by a craps table that had dealers, but no players. The dealers encouraged us to play, and we indicated we had no idea how to play. They said they would teach us. The one dealer taught us the Iron Cross, and my friend and I played and won money. Neither of us remember exactly how much, but considering we are both low rollers, it couldn't have been more than $50-$60.

What we DO both remember is playing again later that night, and losing a couple hundred each.

I think it goes to show that if you did take the time to do nice lessons, that make the customer feel wanted and eager to play, they're more likely to come back and lose their money. Which, of course, should be the goal of the casino.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I've heard rumors that they have them in AC, but I've never seen a sign about it.

I was surfing and bumped into this on the Trump Taj site:

Quote:

PLAY WITH ACES

The ACES program at Trump Taj Mahal offers exclusive, one-on-one training during live table game play. ACES instructors know table games intimately to help you play. No books, no videos, no lectures, no classes. ACES instructors are on your side and at your side every step of the way.

The ACES team of experts will help you play your game of choice with confidence no matter what your skill level.

Call ACES today at 609.449.5144 or visit us at the ACES desk in the Trump Taj Mahal hotel lobby.

Learn more about the ACES program online at playwithaces.com

OK. So training is offered in AC.

The FAQ page states it costs $200 for a two hour lesson with additional $100 per hour.

The training includes classroom one-on-one training, followed by either observing and discussing action in the casino, or play with coaching in the casino.


It sounds interesting, until you 'read between the lines.'


On their home page is a short video. In it two talking heads discuss the program while clips of the trainers and students playing the various games are shown.

At :23 in, a student is at the craps table, getting ready to shoot, when she clutches the dice with both hands.

The very next scene, the same person is now sitting at a Roulette table, next to the student that is the focus of the clip. And she's changed her clothes.

She's seen or featured at least three more times, with different clothes each time.

While it's entirely possible this person is an actress, it's more likely that she's one of the instructors, playing the part. As such, she should have known not to hold the dice with two hands. Even if she were an actress, she should have been told not to do that, (or the scene re-shot) since the FAQ page indicates that the rules and player etiquette will be discussed during the one-on-one.


So, even costly lessons might not teach the basics....

At one hundred dollars an hour with a two hour minimum, it sounds like something that should be taking place only in the hotel room.

Oh my God that is horrible. Yeah, better to play craps like a dummy for two hours and then use the $200 to buy an escort.

On the other hand, I might pay $200 for "individualized instruction" from the actress in that video.

I attended parts of a couple of craps lessons at Bill's and the Monte Carlo.

At Bill's I arrived late and really stuck around only because I noticed a bunch of coupons on top of the chip stacks. They turned out to be $5 match play craps coupons for any even money bet, and each "student" got one at the end. I wound not using mine, but gave it to a couple I met playing rapid craps during my last day.

Anyway, the instruction was mostly factual, confined to explaining what each bet was and how to place it. Very little advice was offered. On the plus side the instructor said the pass line/don't pass bet with odds and the come/don't come bet with odds were the best bets to make. On the minus side he recommended laying money on the fire bet. He did stress the fact it was a long shot, but said "You don't want to see it hit when you didn't make the bet." Overall it was a good lesson.

The Monte Carlo was quite different. While the instructor there did explain all bets correctly, he kept advising prospective players to bet on hop bets, prop bets and all the other sucker bets. About the only thing he didn't advise anyone to do was bet on the big 6/8, he even said it was a bad bet (it is, but not as bad as a hop bet). He didn't push the fire bet because the casino doesn't offer it.

Quote: FleaStiff

At one hundred dollars an hour with a two hour minimum, it sounds like something that should be taking place only in the hotel room.

Hooo awww.