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Wizard
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November 19th, 2013 at 7:14:37 PM permalink
Not only did I see lots of new table games at Raving yesterday, but an actual new game on the casino floor of the Paris. It is called 2 Face Blackjack. The thrust of it is the dealer exposes his hole card if the up card is a face card. They pay for this by removing the tens from the deck and blackjack pays even money.

I just started a page on 2 Face Blackjack, but so far all that is there are the rules. Xcite Gaming is behind it. I just asked them for the math report. Hopefully they will provide it.

I played the game for about 15 minutes and thought it was a pretty good idea. When the dealer exposed the hole card, I had to make educated guesses on the strategy.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
speedycrap
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November 19th, 2013 at 9:10:30 PM permalink
That is an interesting game.
EvenBob
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November 19th, 2013 at 9:20:21 PM permalink
Now this sounds like an interesting game. Easy to understand,
and the player gets to see the dealer hole card at times. This
gives the player a jolt, and a reason to play again. The person
who designed this understands what players want, unlike 90%
of the designers out there.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
michael99000
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November 19th, 2013 at 10:13:26 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

When the dealer exposed the hole card, I had to make educated guesses on the strategy.



For any hand where the dealer exposes his hole card, would the correct strategy be similar to that used when playing double exposure blackjack.?

I guess with the 10s removed there'd be some differences
OzzyOsbourne
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November 19th, 2013 at 11:55:22 PM permalink
double exposure with a running count of -24 to start for six decks. :(
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ChesterDog
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November 20th, 2013 at 7:33:16 AM permalink
Here's what I get for the strategy against the dealer's 17 to 20:
Hard	17	18	19	20
4-8 H H H sur.
9 H H H sur.
10 H H H H
11 H H H H
12 H H H sur.
13 H H H sur.
14 H H H sur.
15 H H H sur.
16 H H sur. sur.
17 S H sur. sur.
18 S S sur. sur.
19 S S S sur.
20-21 S S S S

Soft 17 18 19 20
13 H H H H
14 H H H H
15 H H H H
16 H H H H
17 H H H H
18 S H H H
19 S S S H
20-21 S S S S

Splits 17 18 19 20
2,2 split split H sur.
3,3 split split H sur.
4,4 H H H sur.
5,5 H H H H
6,6 split H H sur.
7,7 split H H sur.
8,8 split split sur. sur.
9,9 S split split sur.
10,10 S S S S
A,A H H H H
Mission146
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November 20th, 2013 at 7:38:37 AM permalink
Is there no doubling allowed on this game?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
ChesterDog
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November 20th, 2013 at 8:27:51 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Is there no doubling allowed on this game?



The player would double a lot when the dealer has 12- 16. Here's what I get vs 12-16:

Hard 12 13 14 15 16
4 H H H H doub.
5 H H H H doub.
6 H H H doub. doub.
7 H H H doub. doub.
8 H doub. doub. doub. doub.
9 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
10 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
11 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
12 H S S S S
13-21 S S S S S

Soft 12 13 14 15 16
13-18 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
19 S doub. doub. doub. doub.
20 S S S doub. doub.
21 S S S S doub.*

Splits 12 13 14 15 16
2,2 split split split split split
3,3 split split split split split
4,4 split split split split split
5,5 doub. doub. doub. doub. doub.
6,6 split split split split split
7,7 split split split split split
8,8 split split split split split
9,9 split split split split split
10,10 S S S split split
A,A split split split split split


*After splitting 10,10 vs 16, the player would double 10,A. However, the player wouldn't double blackjack vs 16.
ams288
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November 20th, 2013 at 9:26:21 AM permalink
Ooh this sounds fun. I love all the blackjack variation games.

How many times do you play blackjack and it feels like every hand the dealer keeps showing face cards? Well it seems like you'd actually WANT that with this game.

And compared to the push on 22 games, the missing 10s aren't very noticeable to the player whereas the push on 22 can be infuriating. Even money BJ is no fun, but bearable.

I'll check it out when I'm in Vegas in a week and a half.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
Mission146
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November 20th, 2013 at 9:26:29 AM permalink
I guess I don't understand not doubling Hard-11 against 17, just for one example. There are twelve values in this game, six values win, one value pushes and five values lose.

Worst case scenario, the Hard-11 consists of 9,2, so in an eight deck shoe, you have:

48 * 8 = 384

31 + 32 + 31 + 95 = 189

32 to push

31 + 32 + 32 + 32 +32 = 159

(189/380 * 2) - (32 * 0) - (159/380 * 2) = 0.1578947368421052

Now, the same results, but with hitting:

(189/380 * 1) - (32 * 0) - (159/380 * 1) = 0.0789473684210526

In the value of hitting to a total of 12-16 and being able to hit again, we'd need to find expected value of:

0.1578947368421052 - 0.0789473684210526 = 0.0789473684210526

Over the value of hitting to a total of 17-21.

I do understand that the probability of just winning the hand clearly increases, I'm just wondering by how much.

It would take some time for me to determine all of the possible outcomes for that hit on 11 to a total of 17+, otherwise bust, so do you happen to already know the EV of hitting on Hard-11 vs. a Dealer Seven?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
bigfoot66
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November 20th, 2013 at 9:33:06 AM permalink
Mission if it is a hit soft 17 game that could play a factor, in this case doubling and getting a 7 is NOT a guaranteed win. EDIT: wait this is not possible...
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Wizard
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November 20th, 2013 at 9:39:30 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Is there no doubling allowed on this game?



It is allowed, including after the dealer exposes his hole card. For example, doubling on 11 against a 16 would be perfectly allowed.

Quote: ChesterDog

Here's what I get for the strategy against the dealer's 17 to 20:



Good stuff! Is this based on six or infinite decks? Have you done further analysis of the game? So far the game maker has ignored my inquiry for the math on the game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
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November 20th, 2013 at 9:46:27 AM permalink
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ChesterDog
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November 20th, 2013 at 11:22:28 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Good stuff! Is this based on six or infinite decks? Have you done further analysis of the game? So far the game maker has ignored my inquiry for the math on the game.



Thanks!

I used an infinite deck analysis. For resplitting up to four hands except aces, I get an amazing house edge of 0.41%. And if resplitting of aces is allowed, I get a house edge of 0.39%.
ChesterDog
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November 20th, 2013 at 11:40:11 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I guess I don't understand not doubling Hard-11 against 17, just for one example. There are twelve values in this game, six values win, one value pushes and five values lose.

Worst case scenario, the Hard-11 consists of 9,2, so in an eight deck shoe, you have:

48 * 8 = 384

31 + 32 + 31 + 95 = 189

32 to push

31 + 32 + 32 + 32 +32 = 159

(189/380 * 2) - (32 * 0) - (159/380 * 2) = 0.1578947368421052

Now, the same results, but with hitting:

(189/380 * 1) - (32 * 0) - (159/380 * 1) = 0.0789473684210526

In the value of hitting to a total of 12-16 and being able to hit again, we'd need to find expected value of:

0.1578947368421052 - 0.0789473684210526 = 0.0789473684210526

Over the value of hitting to a total of 17-21.

I do understand that the probability of just winning the hand clearly increases, I'm just wondering by how much.

It would take some time for me to determine all of the possible outcomes for that hit on 11 to a total of 17+, otherwise bust, so do you happen to already know the EV of hitting on Hard-11 vs. a Dealer Seven?



Here are my infinite-deck results for doubling and hitting/standing with 11 vs 17:

Card Total EV dbl. EV hit/stand
10 21 2.000 1.000
10 21 2.000 1.000
10 21 2.000 1.000
9 20 2.000 1.000
8 19 2.000 1.000
7 18 2.000 1.000
6 17 0.000 0.000
5 16 -2.000 -0.250
4 15 -2.000 -0.188
3 14 -2.000 -0.120
2 13 -2.000 -0.046
1 12 -2.000 0.033
AVERAGE 0.167 0.452


I see that doubling is bad because of those certain losses of two bets when the player gets a five or less.
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November 20th, 2013 at 12:52:32 PM permalink
This will go the way of Face Up Blackjack. People with use their version of basic strategy, find they go broke even faster, and that will be that !
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Mission146
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November 20th, 2013 at 2:49:59 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Enough to make hitting the better play, even in standard blackjack when the hole card is known, you hit 11 vs. 17.



Looks that way, sure goes against my intuition on that play. I wouldn't play it without seeing a chart, though, and that's why!!!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Ibeatyouraces
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November 20th, 2013 at 3:01:53 PM permalink
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Wizard
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November 21st, 2013 at 8:02:07 AM permalink
Quote: ChesterDog

I used an infinite deck analysis. For resplitting up to four hands except aces, I get an amazing house edge of 0.41%. And if resplitting of aces is allowed, I get a house edge of 0.39%.



Here is my basic strategy. We disagree in several places. I still need to double check my work. I actually have a two-year old spreadsheet on this game. I'm not sure why.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Zerchi
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November 21st, 2013 at 10:25:25 AM permalink
Does the chart indicate doubling a natural against a 16, or would that only be for a soft 21 after splitting?

It seems odd that you just hit a hand total of 10 against a dealer 12, 13 or 14 when it is composed of two 5's.
tringlomane
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November 21st, 2013 at 10:29:56 AM permalink
Quote: Zerchi

Does the chart indicate doubling a natural against a 16, or would that only be for a soft 21 after splitting?

It seems odd that you just hit a hand total of 10 against a dealer 12, 13 or 14 when it is composed of two 5's.



It's soft 21 after splitting. And good catch. Hitting 55 in those spots does look inconsistent to the standard strategy for 10.
Wizard
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November 21st, 2013 at 10:34:22 AM permalink
Quote: Zerchi

Does the chart indicate doubling a natural against a 16, or would that only be for a soft 21 after splitting?



Soft 21 after splitting.

Quote:

It seems odd that you just hit a hand total of 10 against a dealer 12, 13 or 14 when it is composed of two 5's.



Yeah, that doesn't seem right. I'm in the process of starting over with a clean spreadsheet. I don't trust that old one that strategy is based on.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
beachbumbabs
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November 21st, 2013 at 10:39:45 AM permalink
Quote: Zerchi

Does the chart indicate doubling a natural against a 16, or would that only be for a soft 21 after splitting?

It seems odd that you just hit a hand total of 10 against a dealer 12, 13 or 14 when it is composed of two 5's.



Zerchi,

Not a mathematician, but getting rid of 1/4 of the ten-count cards has to be a significant factor in changing the strategy on things like this; you're that much more likely to get a smaller card that will be less help on a double-down and benefit from being able to be hit again. I would guess that it's a close percentage in that range, but hit is the side of the line that is the better play overall on those cards, so that's the correct strategy. EDIT: The Wiz answered the same time I did, so I'm going to leave my opinion up, but defer to what he said.
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miplet
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November 21st, 2013 at 10:41:20 AM permalink
They list the bs and house edge starting on page 21. pdf
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Wizard
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November 21st, 2013 at 11:11:24 AM permalink
Here is version 2 of my strategy.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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November 21st, 2013 at 12:04:35 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

They list the bs and house edge starting on page 21. pdf



Good work! I hunted around their site and didn't find that.

I see they say the infinite-deck house edge under the Paris rules (their version 1) is 0.407%. I get 0.442%.

By the way, that report says re-splitting aces is not allowed.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ams288
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November 21st, 2013 at 12:47:28 PM permalink
Are you allowed to hit aces after splitting them or do you only get one card? I'm wondering what the difference between the soft 12 row and the A,A row is.
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tringlomane
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November 21st, 2013 at 1:23:57 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Soft 21 after splitting.



But since BJ is even money, is BJ able to be doubled vs. a 6? Or does BJ beat a 21 by the dealer so you don't want to double?
Wizard
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November 21st, 2013 at 1:40:23 PM permalink
Quote: ams288

Are you allowed to hit aces after splitting them or do you only get one card? I'm wondering what the difference between the soft 12 row and the A,A row is.



Good point. That row is hypothetical only. I'll remove it.
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Wizard
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November 21st, 2013 at 1:42:11 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

But since BJ is even money, is BJ able to be doubled vs. a 6? Or does BJ beat a 21 by the dealer so you don't want to double?



I suppose you could, but it would be a bad play. The highest EV, other than a natural, is doubling soft-21 against a hard 16. The EV of that play is 0.930555556, less than the 1.0 by taking the natural.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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November 21st, 2013 at 2:22:22 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I see they say the infinite-deck house edge under the Paris rules (their version 1) is 0.407%. I get 0.442%.



I found the point of departure. I was allowing infinite re-splitting and they capped it to four hands. Normally the four-hand limit makes hardly any difference, because the player so seldom would otherwise get to five or more. However, this game calls for splitting tens against a 15 or 16. With infinite re-splitting the player can expect to be rebuffed to re-split 0.14 twenties each initial time the player splits tens. Adding that rule I get the same 0.407% house edge as the Xcite report.

I consider my page on 2 Face Blackjack pretty much done. I welcome all comments and corrections.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ams288
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November 22nd, 2013 at 12:22:47 PM permalink
I've printed out the strategy and I'll use it next weekend when I'm in Vegas. I'm sure there will be some misinformed people (and dealers) who think I'm crazy for following it on some of the trickier hands.

Getting rid of the 10s really is brilliant, IMO. The average BJ player is not going to properly adjust their play to account for this. The house edge is very low with optimal play, but hardly anyone is going to play optimally.
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Paradigm
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November 22nd, 2013 at 1:21:32 PM permalink
Quote: ams288

Getting rid of the 10s really is brilliant, IMO. The average BJ player is not going to properly adjust their play to account for this. The house edge is very low with optimal play, but hardly anyone is going to play optimally.


It is the beauty of Spanish 21 as well and the reason it holds so much more vs. Traditional BJ in WA.
Wizard
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November 22nd, 2013 at 1:34:39 PM permalink
Quote: ams288

I've printed out the strategy and I'll use it next weekend when I'm in Vegas.



Good idea. With the possible exception of craps, it is probably the best bet in the whole casino.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Paradigm
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November 24th, 2013 at 8:37:12 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

This will go the way of Face Up Blackjack. People with use their version of basic strategy, find they go broke even faster, and that will be that !


Buzz brings up an interesting point, anyone care to figure out the edge using basic BJ strategy except where an adjustment to BS is likely obvious to most players (i.e. Surrendering a 19 against a known dealer 20)?

If this non-optimal strategy HE ends up in the range of 1.5%-2%, the type of player making those mistakes likely plays regular BJ to a similar edge and won't notice their bankroll dissipating any faster than normal.
ams288
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December 4th, 2013 at 9:36:30 AM permalink
Played this game quite a bit over the weekend with the Wiz's basic strategy printed out. Came out exactly even from it. Had some big wins and some big losses.

Apparently it's been in Paris for over a year.

For the most part, the dealers at Paris were no good. Unfriendly, unhelpful, might as well have been made of stone. There were a couple friendly ones, but they gave awful advice. That always bugs me. When I told one that basic strategy is to split 10s against a 15 or a 16, she said my strategy card was "a joke card."

Then during my last session the dealer was a really friendly guy. He saw I had it printed out and asked where I got it. I told him WoO and he got really excited. Said he'd checked for it before but didn't see it. Said he was gonna print it out when he got home. I was the only one at the table. He kept asking me proper plays. He said he's never been able to give any advice on the game because he didn't know the strategy (that sure doesn't stop the other dealers). He asked if I knew the house edge and I told him 0.4%ish. He got really excited about that too, said this or dice is the game to play at Paris then.

There were never more than two other players at the table. And, as expected, most of them played it like traditional BJ. They were afraid to take their hits and often ended up killing the table because of it.
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Ibeatyouraces
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December 4th, 2013 at 9:41:10 AM permalink
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bigfoot66
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December 4th, 2013 at 10:11:40 AM permalink
What am I missing here? How does the house edge drop when they limit you to splitting 4 times instead of letting you split more times? Shouldn't more options decrease the house edge? If splittling more than 4 times increases the house edge why are we splitting to a 5th hand?
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Ibeatyouraces
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December 4th, 2013 at 10:16:43 AM permalink
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tringlomane
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December 4th, 2013 at 10:48:19 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Just a guess here, but the more face cards you keep pulling out to splits, the more likely the dealer will not bust his/her hand.



Not for infinite deck.
bigfoot66
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December 4th, 2013 at 10:48:36 AM permalink
I'm skeptical that's the case because it is such a rare event that it can't possibly have that big an effect on the HE. Plus, it has to be offset by the times we split 8's a dozen times.
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Wizard
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December 4th, 2013 at 11:29:36 AM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

What am I missing here? How does the house edge drop when they limit you to splitting 4 times instead of letting you split more times? Shouldn't more options decrease the house edge? If splittling more than 4 times increases the house edge why are we splitting to a 5th hand?



There is something else at play, and I don't remember what. If we allow re-splitting tens infinitely I get a house edge of 0.395%.
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bigfoot66
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December 4th, 2013 at 12:02:25 PM permalink
My only thought was that it might have something to do with the fact that, as you continue to split, you put more money on the table, but the house edge is measured versus the original one bet. So perhaps the "element of risk" is decreasing but for some other reason it was increasing the house edge.
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Wizard
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December 4th, 2013 at 1:30:27 PM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

My only thought was that it might have something to do with the fact that, as you continue to split, you put more money on the table, but the house edge is measured versus the original one bet. So perhaps the "element of risk" is decreasing but for some other reason it was increasing the house edge.



No. The house edge in blackjack is measured in terms of the original wager only. Having more choices should never increase the house edge, assuming optimal strategy.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
michael99000
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December 4th, 2013 at 1:51:42 PM permalink
I'd think it's very rare in any casino game, where the house edge drops due to a player having a certain option, but then increases when the player has the ability to use that option infinite number of times.
oscar33
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January 21st, 2014 at 4:19:53 PM permalink
Sounds like a great game. Two questions:

1. When you split aces, can you double?

2. When the player has blackjack and the player has a 10 and shows an ace, I assume it's a push?

Thanks,

Oscar
ams288
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February 13th, 2014 at 12:10:51 PM permalink
Quote: oscar33

Sounds like a great game. Two questions:

1. When you split aces, can you double?

2. When the player has blackjack and the player has a 10 and shows an ace, I assume it's a push?

Thanks,

Oscar



1 - No, you get one card only. Which really sucks in this game sucks because there are no 10s.

2 - I assume you mean both the player and dealer have blackjack. It's a push.
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ams288
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April 3rd, 2014 at 1:19:00 PM permalink
I think Paris got rid of the game. At the very least it's been moved from where it was previously. I wanted to play last weekend and there was just a regular 21+3 table there. I wandered around a bit looking for it but didn't find it.
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April 3rd, 2014 at 1:37:23 PM permalink
Quote: ams288

I think Paris got rid of the game. At the very least it's been moved from where it was previously. I wanted to play last weekend and there was just a regular 21+3 table there. I wandered around a bit looking for it but didn't find it.



Yes, it's been removed.
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