Roulette

What is the maximum number of bets you could place on the standard layout of an American wheel without duplicates?

I have no idea why I just thought of this but I don't think I have ever seen it mentioned.

What does it take for a bet to be duplicated? If I bet 1,2,4,5 and the shared corner, is that a duplication?

I estimate 109 different bets. The best winner is 1, 2, 3 as you get the 7-1 basket. If you add the "snake bet", 110 bets and 1 becomes the best winner, you would place 121 chips and collect 125.

Please check the math...

I mean, really, please check my math...

There's a heck of a lot of places where you can place a chip. But there's a lot that are the same bet / payout, just with different numbers. How many different payouts are there? I think 8.

Compare that to craps, which has so many places to make bets, and there is very little repetition amongst the payout groupings!

Quote: rdw4potus

What does it take for a bet to be duplicated? If I bet 1,2,4,5 and the shared corner, is that a duplication?

No, it wouldn't be in my scenario. I want to see what the maximum number of chips a player could place on the layout in one spin while not betting more than one chip in any position on the table.

Quote: wroberson

I estimate 109 different bets. The best winner is 1, 2, 3 as you get the 7-1 basket. If you add the "snake bet", 110 bets and 1 becomes the best winner, you would place 121 chips and collect 125.

Please check the math...

I mean, really, please check my math...

Assuming it is 109 and the player places one chip on each of the 109 possible betting positions, what would be the maximum win or loss on a spin. Would it always be the same?

I counted up 161 different bets, 149 on the inside and 12 on the outside.

Great question. Let's count them up.

Inside (no green):
36 - individual numbers (1 or 2 or ...)
33 - column pairs (1,4 or 2,5 or ...)
24 - row pairs (1,2 or 2,3 or ...)
22 - 4-squares (1,2,4,5 or 2,3,5,6 or ...)
12 - rows (1,2,3 or 4,5,6 or ...)
11 - double rows (1,2,3,4,5,6 or 4,5,6,7,8,9 or ...)
That's 138.

Inside (green):
2 - individual numbers (0 or 00)
3
1 - row pair (0,00)
1 - basket (0,00,1,2,3)
That's 4.

Outside:
2 - red, black
2 - odd, even
2 - 1-18, 19-36
3 - 1-12, 13-24, 25-36
3 - column 1, 2, 3
That's 12.

So 154 total is what I get. I'm missing 7 inside bets if Flea is correct.

135 bets is what I fit on the board at WOO. Not sure if that covers everything that could be done in real life, though.

Edit: found more. up to 159.

Here's a pic:


re-edit: $6 is bet on the second dozen. Couldn't figure out how to remove the $5 bet without clearing everything.

Ok I now have 159 as well. I didn't realize you could pair/corner with the greens.

Looking at all the green bets in your pic, I see:

0
00
0,00
0,1
00,3
0,1,2
00,2,3
0,00,1,2,3

There's a bet at the 0,00,2 point. Is that bet 0,00,2? Is it possible to pair 0,2 or 00,2? It wasn't clear to me.

Quote: jc2286

There's a bet at the 0,00,2 point. Is that bet 0,00,2? Is it possible to pair 0,2 or 00,2? It wasn't clear to me.

I don't know why it wouldn't be possible since they do touch, but I can't get the simulator to let me drop chips there. I suppose those two bets are the difference between my 159 and flea's 161.

Quote: jc2286

Ok I now have 159 as well. I didn't realize you could pair/corner with the greens.

Looking at all the green bets in your pic, I see:

0
00
0,00
0,1
00,3
0,1,2
00,2,3
0,00,1,2,3

There's a bet at the 0,00,2 point. Is that bet 0,00,2? Is it possible to pair 0,2 or 00,2? It wasn't clear to me.

yes 0,00,2 and 0,2 and 00,2 are allowed bets

Quote: Fleaswatter

yes 0,00,2 and 0,2 and 00,2 are allowed bets

Then I agree that there are 161 possible bets. The simulator at WOO wouldn't let me bet 0,2 and 00,2 and I had 159 without those two spots.

Quote: rdw4potus

Then I agree that there are 161 possible bets. The simulator at WOO wouldn't let me bet 0,2 and 00,2 and I had 159 without those two spots.

Agreed. 161 it is.

I have a question/approach to playing Roulette. I see the game as calculating risk and trying to tip the risk against the house. I know, I know, I'm new to this but, here is how I play.
I always bet 17 1$ chips and bridge 3 of those bets across two numbers. This way I cover 20 numbers. On the bridge numbers I end up getting my money back (given one of those numbers come in.

Is this a good way to play? seeing as I cover 20 numbers, does that put the odds in my favor?

I may not be thinking deep enough so any insight would be helpful.

Marion

>Is this a good way to play?
Sure, why not? Its about as good as any.

> seeing as I cover 20 numbers, does that put the odds in my favor?
Heck no. If you want to "cover" ALL the numbers you can. They still pick up all the losses and then pay all the wins. And even if you cover every number, you will lose money on each and every spin.

With roulette its fairly simple: for most bets, the house edge is 5.26 percent on an American Wheel. Half that on a European Wheel. And Half that again on a European Wheel playing European Rules. And get this,,, it never changes, no matter how shallowly or deeply you engage in a process of bet selection. Random bets? Go ahead. May Lady Luck be with you. The currently most hit numbers, Go Ahead, may Lady Luck be with you. The currently least favored numbers, Go Ahead, may Lady Luck be with you. A particular octet? A particular color? A number directly infront of a lovely young lady? Any method you want. Its still 5.26 percent and the odds are in the favor of the casino, which is the way those casino executives walking around in suits like seeing it. Their pensions and salary checks sort of depend upon their making it sure it stays that way, no matter how deeply you think.

Quote: Marion

Is this a good way to play?

No.

The roulette layout is like a big buffet with many
selections. But the chef has poisoned everything
so that no matter what you eat or in what quantity
or order, you will still be poisoned. Just bet black
or red, your money will last longer before you
eventually lose all of it.

Quote: EvenBob

No.

The roulette layout is like a big buffet with many
selections. But the chef has poisoned everything
so that no matter what you eat or in what quantity
or order, you will still be poisoned. Just bet black
or red, your money will last longer before you
eventually lose all of it.

This might be the best thing I've ever read about roulette.

Quote: FleaStiff

>Is this a good way to play?
Sure, why not? Its about as good as any.

> seeing as I cover 20 numbers, does that put the odds in my favor?
Heck no. If you want to "cover" ALL the numbers you can. They still pick up all the losses and then pay all the wins. And even if you cover every number, you will lose money on each and every spin.

With roulette its fairly simple: for most bets, the house edge is 5.26 percent on an American Wheel. Half that on a European Wheel. And Half that again on a European Wheel playing European Rules. And get this,,, it never changes, no matter how shallowly or deeply you engage in a process of bet selection. Random bets? Go ahead. May Lady Luck be with you. The currently most hit numbers, Go Ahead, may Lady Luck be with you. The currently least favored numbers, Go Ahead, may Lady Luck be with you. A particular octet? A particular color? A number directly infront of a lovely young lady? Any method you want. Its still 5.26 percent and the odds are in the favor of the casino, which is the way those casino executives walking around in suits like seeing it. Their pensions and salary checks sort of depend upon their making it sure it stays that way, no matter how deeply you think.

I know I won't cover ALL the numbers, but if I cover 20 out of 38, that leaves 18 numbers for 'the house'. Its not that I am picking 'A' number, but cover more numbers than the house covers. I would think that would lean the chances to the 20 covered numbers vs. the rest (18) numbers. I'm not disagreeing, just trying to see the logic. I have been going to one casino for about 3-4 months now, Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays almost every week and I have never played with my money. I started with 100$, but that went back in my pocket after a couple of plays. Since then, I have been playing with the winnings, never my money. Sure, some days they would take some back, but I always pulled out ahead the next time. Many more winning days than losing days. I can only count 2 days where I left with less money than when I went in with.

deleted

Quote: Marion

I know I won't cover ALL the numbers, but if I cover 20 out of 38, that leaves 18 numbers for 'the house'. Its not that I am picking 'A' number, but cover more numbers than the house covers. I would think that would lean the chances to the 20 covered numbers vs. the rest (18) numbers. I'm not disagreeing, just trying to see the logic. I have been going to one casino for about 3-4 months now, Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays almost every week and I have never played with my money. I started with 100$, but that went back in my pocket after a couple of plays. Since then, I have been playing with the winnings, never my money. Sure, some days they would take some back, but I always pulled out ahead the next time. Many more winning days than losing days. I can only count 2 days where I left with less money than when I went in with.

This is what we are trying to explain: There is no good way to play Roulette. There is, however, a bad way...the Basket Bet...so I guess any bet that is not a basket bet is a, "Good way." The reason covering all the numbers was mentioned is because it is the same long-term result as what you are doing, except then it is also the same short term result, as well, as Variance has been reduced to nothing with a guaranteed loss of x units. Variance is your friend in Roulette.

If you plan to play Roulette with an advantage, then you can start by Googling, "Visual Ballistics," and then decide whether you buy into that and/or think you can become good enough for that. There are also electronic devices that accomplish the same thing that Visual Ballisticians claim to be able to accomplish, those are illegal, so don't consider them.

The simplest way for you to cover twenty numbers, along with being less labor-intensive, is to simply bet Red or Black for Seventeen Units and Split Green for one Unit. The financial affect of a 0/00 will be none whatsoever, you'll win Sixteen Units on winning bets and lose eighteen Units on losing bets. However, the House and yourself have the same overall probability of coming out ahead on the bet. If that doesn't explain why you are at a disadvantage, there's really nothing I can do for you. You'll notice that if you bet all 18 units on Black, then you win on Eighteen numbers and the House wins on Twenty, difference of two numbers...By negating the zeroes, both you and the House win on eighteen numbers...but the difference is two units for the House every time the House wins...funny how that works, isn't it?

Finally, don't let short-term results affect future judgment. If you plan to keep trying to win, if you plan to stop when you get down to the original $100, or if you plan to lose the original $100 in pursuit of x$, whatever, but don't go into the game of Roulette thinking you have an advantage. Variance is your friend in a negative expectation game, and you're getting some of the positive variety. Why is Variance your friend? It's your friend because, otherwise, you would just go into a casino, hand them $100, receive $94.74 change, and in exchange they'll spin the wheel and drop the ball 38 times with the results being irrelevant.

Think about it like this, imagine I went into a casino every day for a year and flat bet $5 on a single number. One bet per day. If my number comes eleven or more times that year, I could say I'm ahead for the year at Roulette. Inconceivable? Not even remotely. That's Variance, it fluctuates, the House Edge (barring some kind of AP tactic, such as a loss rebate) does not fluctuate, the end.

Quote: Marion

Is this a good way to play? seeing as I cover 20 numbers, does that put the odds in my favor?

That depends on what you mean. This method will make you more likely to win than to lose, but your losses will be bigger than your wins. There is no way to adjust your bets in order to have a positive expectation playing roulette.

Using this method, you'll win 19 units 14/38ths of the time, you'll win 1 unit 6/38ths of the time, and you'll lose 17 units 18/38ths of the time. That's (19*14/38)+6/38-18/38=7+0.15789-8.05=-0.8947. -0.8947/17=-0.05263, which is 1/19, which is the house edge in american roulette.

Mission146

Yep, I see what you are saying, especially just betting Red or Black for 17 and split the green for one unit.
I think I look at it more as entertainment than trying to win every time. I tried Black Jack but it goes much to fast, to intense. I like the play of the wheel. Not to fast, not to slow. Even the electronic roulette is to fast.....

Thanks for putting things straight for me...

You're welcome, and no problem!

They just got the Vegas Star Roulette at my local casino, and it appears to have thirty seconds betting time between spins, you also see about five seconds of spin time (it spins while you make the bets) and about five-ten seconds it takes to resolve them. That's about 80 resolutions per hour, but the minimum total bet is $2.00, spread anyway you like. The expected loss per hour is slightly higher than a physical wheel with a $5.00 minimum resolving thirty times per hour:

5 * 30 * .0526 = $7.89

2 * 80 * .0526 = $8.416

It depends on what you want. Despite the greater expected loss per hour, the lower minimums give you the ability to stretch a buck across more bets. You do lose the physical interaction aspect, though there is a physical wheel and ball. I tend to play Black-29 and the four corners thereof, so I'll go $2.50/total on the Vegas Star which would be $5.00/total on the table. I'd say I like them both equally, but for different reasons.

Quote: Mission146

You're welcome, and no problem!

They just got the Vegas Star Roulette at my local casino, and it appears to have thirty seconds betting time between spins, you also see about five seconds of spin time (it spins while you make the bets) and about five-ten seconds it takes to resolve them. That's about 80 resolutions per hour, but the minimum total bet is $2.00, spread anyway you like. The expected loss per hour is slightly higher than a physical wheel with a $5.00 minimum resolving thirty times per hour:

5 * 30 * .0526 = $7.89

2 * 80 * .0526 = $8.416

It depends on what you want. Despite the greater expected loss per hour, the lower minimums give you the ability to stretch a buck across more bets. You do lose the physical interaction aspect, though there is a physical wheel and ball. I tend to play Black-29 and the four corners thereof, so I'll go $2.50/total on the Vegas Star which would be $5.00/total on the table. I'd say I like them both equally, but for different reasons.

Just realized, can't do 17 on red or back and then 2 on zero/double zero. Got to spend the min. both inside and outside.

When I stick with the 17 chips, splitting 3, giving me the 17 back on the splits if I don't hit on a solid number, I tend to do very good over a long period of time. If I start to lose twice, then I up the splits to 19, so at least if I hit the splits, I will get back everything on the board except 2. but when I hit the 35 a couple of times, I go back to the 17 splitting 3. I went yesterday, played for about 1 hour and made $107. I have tried just putting $100 out on the board in all different combinations, but that is to risky. Spreading out the risk (no, not doing away with the risk), but spreading it out and having the insurance of the splits seems to work pretty well for me.

For me, a different puzzle is this - how much can you WIN on one spin of the ball? Let's say you have a hunch that 17 black is coming and bet it every way possible - and it does.

At my casino and most of the ones I played in Vegas, you can bet $50 any way to a number on the inside. Betting $50 on one number gets you $1,750 straight up, but there's more money to be won. So if you go $50 apiece on 17 straight up, all four splits, all four corners, 16th Street, the two line bets that include 17, and table max on 1-18, black, odd, and each of the middle dozens, what do you win?

At my casino, table max on the outside is $2,500 for the dozens and $5,000 for the even-money bets. For that part, the math is simple, and you win $25,000 on the five outside bets.

Let's see here on the inside, assuming $50 max on each bet:
-17 black straight up at 35-1: $1,750
-Four split bets at 17-1: $3,400
-Four corner bets at 8-1: $1,600
-16th Street at 11-1: $550
-Two line bets at 5-1: $500
-Total inside winnings: $7,800
-Total winnings: $32,800

Quote: hwccdealer

For me, a different puzzle is this - how much can you WIN on one spin of the ball? Let's say you have a hunch that 17 black is coming and bet it every way possible - and it does.

At my casino and most of the ones I played in Vegas, you can bet $50 any way to a number on the inside. Betting $50 on one number gets you $1,750 straight up, but there's more money to be won. So if you go $50 apiece on 17 straight up, all four splits, all four corners, 16th Street, the two line bets that include 17, and table max on 1-18, black, odd, and each of the middle dozens, what do you win?

At my casino, table max on the outside is $2,500 for the dozens and $5,000 for the even-money bets. For that part, the math is simple, and you win $25,000 on the five outside bets.

Let's see here on the inside, assuming $50 max on each bet:
-17 black straight up at 35-1: $1,750
-Four split bets at 17-1: $3,400
-Four corner bets at 8-1: $1,600
-16th Street at 11-1: $550
-Two line bets at 5-1: $500
-Total inside winnings: $7,800
-Total winnings: $32,800

We're going to forget the outside bets, as going for max returns on the outside is simply a matter of finding the casino that offers the highest outside payouts; however, maximum inside payout will always occur on Number 2.

Assume a Double-Zero wheel, with the maximum inside bet being one unit. Whereas a maximum bet every way to the number on Number 17 pays 156 units, maximum bets every way to the number on Number 2 pays 191 units.
With a $50 maximum any way to the number, betting every way on Number 17 allows an individual to place $600 in action for a win of $7800 should 17 hit.
Betting every way on Number 2 allows the player to place $700 in action for a win of $9550 should 2 hit.

Using your $50 maximum inside "any way to the number", here are the results for a hit on Number 2 covered every way:
One straight (2) =$1750
Five splits (2-0, 2-00, 2-1, 2-3, 2-5) =$4250
Three baskets (1-0-2, 0-2-00, 2-00-3)=$1650
One street (1-2-3) =$550
Two corners (1-2-4-5, 2-3-5-6) =$800
One top line (0-00-1-2-3) =$300
One six line (1-2-3-4-5-6) =$250
Total inside wagers=$700 Total inside winnings=$9550



Something to keep in mind is that the betting model used to establish table maximums has a significant impact on maximum payout.

For the overwhelming majority of the casinos in the US, the betting model used is that of "any way to the number", meaning that the stated maximum ($50 in your example) is the most that may be wagered on any one spot.

Many European casinos, and a few areas in the US (usually high-limit rooms), use the progressive betting model to establish maximums.
In this instance, the inside maximum is determined by the amount of numbers the wager will cover. Quite often, the limit sign will state maximum payout rather than maximum bet.
Using your example, let's suppose the stated maximum inside bet is $50.
The maximum amount one may wager on a straight bet (one number) is $50.
A split bet covers two numbers, allowing the individual to wager $100 on each split.
The street bet, covering three numbers, would allow the player to bet three times the "maximum", or $150.
And so forth.
Using this betting model, a bet which entails betting the maximum amount every possible way to the number is termed a full complete bet.
Were this betting model to be used on one of your $50 maximum tables, placing a full complete bet on Number 17 allows you to bet $2000 total for a possible payout of $19,600.
Placing a full complete bet on Number 2 (again assuming a Double-Zero wheel) allows you to bet $2100 for a possible payout of $23,050.

Quote: EvenBob

No.

The roulette layout is like a big buffet with many
selections. But the chef has poisoned everything
so that no matter what you eat or in what quantity
or order, you will still be poisoned. Just bet black
or red, your money will last longer before you
eventually lose all of it.

I like ...
the problem is, that the player is never satisfied. And it is for this reason that loses in the end.

Quote: rob45

We're going to forget the outside bets, as going for max returns on the outside is simply a matter of finding the casino that offers the highest outside payouts; however, maximum inside payout will always occur on Number 2.

Assume a Double-Zero wheel, with the maximum inside bet being one unit. Whereas a maximum bet every way to the number on Number 17 pays 156 units, maximum bets every way to the number on Number 2 pays 191 units.
With a $50 maximum any way to the number, betting every way on Number 17 allows an individual to place $600 in action for a win of $7800 should 17 hit.
Betting every way on Number 2 allows the player to place $700 in action for a win of $9550 should 2 hit.

Using your $50 maximum inside "any way to the number", here are the results for a hit on Number 2 covered every way:
One straight (2) =$1750
Five splits (2-0, 2-00, 2-1, 2-3, 2-5) =$4250
Three baskets (1-0-2, 0-2-00, 2-00-3)=$1650
One street (1-2-3) =$550
Two corners (1-2-4-5, 2-3-5-6) =$800
One top line (0-00-1-2-3) =$300
One six line (1-2-3-4-5-6) =$250
Total inside wagers=$700 Total inside winnings=$9550



Something to keep in mind is that the betting model used to establish table maximums has a significant impact on maximum payout.

For the overwhelming majority of the casinos in the US, the betting model used is that of "any way to the number", meaning that the stated maximum ($50 in your example) is the most that may be wagered on any one spot.

Many European casinos, and a few areas in the US (usually high-limit rooms), use the progressive betting model to establish maximums.
In this instance, the inside maximum is determined by the amount of numbers the wager will cover. Quite often, the limit sign will state maximum payout rather than maximum bet.
Using your example, let's suppose the stated maximum inside bet is $50.
The maximum amount one may wager on a straight bet (one number) is $50.
A split bet covers two numbers, allowing the individual to wager $100 on each split.
The street bet, covering three numbers, would allow the player to bet three times the "maximum", or $150.
And so forth.
Using this betting model, a bet which entails betting the maximum amount every possible way to the number is termed a full complete bet.
Were this betting model to be used on one of your $50 maximum tables, placing a full complete bet on Number 17 allows you to bet $2000 total for a possible payout of $19,600.
Placing a full complete bet on Number 2 (again assuming a Double-Zero wheel) allows you to bet $2100 for a possible payout of $23,050.

Yeah complete bets is very popular in European and South African casinos. I have dealt that game many a time and it is a RUSH!!! Player will walk up with one chocolate ($5000) chip and ask for the following bet. Of course he will wait until the ball has spun to place it. "I want 17 to the max as well as 34 and 6 and the neighbors by $50, change goes on black"!!!. Now, as the dealer you have about 20 seconds to do the following. Break down the $5000 chip into workable denominations. Place the maximum bet ($4000), place the neighbor bets on the racetrack (remember this is single zero so the wheel layout is a little different). The total bet cost would be $4500 minus the two overlaps on the 17, so $4400 and the change goes on black. You have to be able to book these bets, place them and still wave off in time, place the dolly, clear the layout and resolve the bets........

Like I said....what a rush!!! :)

Edit nvm. Didn't realize this thread was so old.

Quote: Tomspur

Yeah complete bets is very popular in European and South African casinos. I have dealt that game many a time and it is a RUSH!!! Player will walk up with one chocolate ($5000) chip and ask for the following bet. Of course he will wait until the ball has spun to place it. "I want 17 to the max as well as 34 and 6 and the neighbors by $50, change goes on black"!!!. Now, as the dealer you have about 20 seconds to do the following. Break down the $5000 chip into workable denominations. Place the maximum bet ($4000), place the neighbor bets on the racetrack (remember this is single zero so the wheel layout is a little different). The total bet cost would be $4500 minus the two overlaps on the 17, so $4400 and the change goes on black. You have to be able to book these bets, place them and still wave off in time, place the dolly, clear the layout and resolve the bets........

Like I said....what a rush!!! :)

Yeah, roulette is a different animal in the Euro countries. COMPLETELY different game. They take it very seriously. Do you have a caller who sits up high and calls out the bets when they are made?

Quote: teddys

Yeah, roulette is a different animal in the Euro countries. COMPLETELY different game. They take it very seriously. Do you have a caller who sits up high and calls out the bets when they are made?

No, that's a very English way of doing things. They will have a guy, usually middle eastern standing at the game with a stack of 50 pound notes who will wait for the ball to be spun, then just rattle off a bunch of "neighbor" bets. All the dealer will do is collect the cash and wait for the winning number to be announced. Then, make change, place all the neighbor bets, proceed to resolve the winning bets and then on to the next one.

In South Africa we would only accept 3 call bets before a spin (non racetrack table) and 5 with a racetrack.

Not quite as hectic but our games were much bigger color chips wise.

Does his sudden discontinuation of posts suggest this plan didn't go so well?

Quote: Dracula

Does his sudden discontinuation of posts suggest this plan didn't go so well?

I hope he mastered visual ballistics, that looks intense.

If I go to the local, bet $200 on 9 and win $7000, do they really say we don't care because we won $11? Or does the pit boss go home and beat his wife?

Quote: onenickelmiracle

If I go to the local, bet $200 on 9 and win $7000, do they really say we don't care because we won $11? Or does the pit boss go home and beat his wife?

You understand that the $7k doesn't come from the pit boss' bank account, right?

If they care they are morons. Which is not to say that they don't care.

Just wanted to add that betting this way is a great way to get around Table Limits if you're Martingale-ing.

Secondly, Martingale-ing is not a very smart strategy but I'm sure you knew that...


But for the foolish out there - at least know how to get the most out of your foolishness!


For example, if Table Limit is $500 on even chances,

Bet 1-18 Even Chance bet $25,$50,$100,$200,$400

then bet $800 on 1-18 by betting something like $25 on each number straight up 1,2,3,...,18 ($450) with $350 on the even chance 1-18

then bet $1600 by betting covering straight ups and splits in 1-18 with balance on 1-18 even chance...

then bet $3200 by betting straight ups, splits, streets, six lines etc... (Corners can make things a bit asymmetrical though because it skews payouts toward the middle column)

And so on and so on... You can really jam some serious cash on there!


A good tip to know for dealers - if a player has bet over the maximum on 2nd dozen for example, take the balance, halve it and put it on the two six-lines in the dozen for the same outcome... Win-win! (Unless it loses of course...)


Similarly, if someone is over on red or black (and you have time)... try and change their bet and put on each red black number... It will show you're willing to go the extra mile to give the player what they want (and more money on the table is surely going to please your employer!)