Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
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March 28th, 2013 at 9:26:50 PM permalink
One of the things we all need to understand is that new casino games are not designed for the majority of us on this Forum. The average active Forum member is likely in the top 10% when it comes to table game knowledge of all the individuals on any casino they enter. Casino's make their money off of the other 90% of patrons that don't play optimally. These players don't care about banking and would rather play more hands and not have to deal with commissions. If that wasn't the case, EZ PGP wouldn't be heading towards 100 installs.

We can all have an opinion about EZPGP, but the fact of the matter is something clearly was broken with PGP. How else would you explain a third proprietary version of the game coming to market way later than Fortune & Emperor's and taking market share. I guess somebody out there must like the game!
bw
bw
Joined: Aug 9, 2012
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March 28th, 2013 at 9:27:15 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

Yes, this is standard everywhere I have played. The other players "pass" the bank back to the house.

Also, if more than one player is taking their turn to bank, the other players can sit out. Normally what happens is that the house banks against A, B, and C. Then A banks against the house, and B and C sit out. Then B banks, and A and C sit out. Then C banks, and A and B sit out. Then the house banks, and A, B, and C all play. Result? Each player is banking 1 hand and playing 1 hand against the house. House edge: 1.46 percent.



Are players allowed to bank when they didn't play the previous hand?
sodawater
sodawater
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March 28th, 2013 at 9:35:35 PM permalink
Quote: clubflush

Wow, I am amazed how many times you are in error in this thread. If there 100% commission, how is the house edge lower? Commission based games take more monies from you on every win you scratch out. When you average it out, EZ Pai Gow is a better deal. In a commission game, I pay 5% on every win thatís .25 on every 5$ bet won. In EZ Pai Gow the math is simple. It only cost me 18 cents per winning 5$ bet.

This Lie that I pay 100% commission is just wrong. I do not pay on every win that lead up to the dealer getting a queen high pai gow.

The fact of the matter is I seldom push; the queen high is so rare in the dealer hand that many nights when I play I donít even see a queen high pai gow in the dealerís hand. I know on avg I will pay 18 cents on every 5$ win but when I color up with a 100$ win and spent 2 hrs with no queen high pai gow push It sure feels like commission free to me!



1. You pay "100% commission" in EZ PG when you win and the dealer has queen high -- as in, you do not get paid.

2. The house edge in EZ PG is only lower than fortune PG if the player does not bank. As banking is the best option in the game of pai gow poker, it seems ridiculous to compare house edges without this option. It would be like calculating the edge for blackjack without allowing the player to double down or split.

3. No matter what your perception of the effects of no commission, not banking, and pushing on queen high are, the numbers are the numbers. You can see them on the Wizard's own page. Playing fortune pai gow and banking when it's your turn has a house edge of 1.46 percent. This is much lower than the house edge of EZ PG poker.
sodawater
sodawater
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March 28th, 2013 at 9:36:13 PM permalink
Quote: bw

Are players allowed to bank when they didn't play the previous hand?



Players are allowed to bank up to the amount they bet against the house in the most-recent house-banked hand.
sodawater
sodawater
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March 28th, 2013 at 9:38:12 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm



We can all have an opinion about EZPGP, but the fact of the matter is something clearly was broken with PGP. How else would you explain a third proprietary version of the game coming to market way later than Fortune & Emperor's and taking market share. I guess somebody out there must like the game!



Yes, there is no doubt casinos like games that take more money from the player. It doesn't mean public-domain PG was broken in some way. Was blackjack broken before 6 to 5 came along? No. The simple reason is, as you said -- most of the player base is too uneducated to understand how bad the new version of the game is.

This is pennywise and pound-foolish on the part of the operator. Better to give the players a fairer gamble and they will come back to you with the entertainment dollars.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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March 28th, 2013 at 10:05:03 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

What kind of dealers do you have who are slow to calculate or pay winning wagers minus a 5 percent commission? It's a dollar for every $20, and a quarter for every red chip.


I've dealt Pai Gow Poker as my main game, along with craps, for years with Stations.
You've got players betting $87 a hand on commission based Pai Gow just to take shots, and yes - it slows the hell out of the game. On a Sunny day the commission load kills a game, and most striking - the commission is THE most in-your-face house edge a player can ever see.

The majority of the game's slow-down is the commission itself, - it is the single LARGEST cause of dealer errors and slowdowns on the game itself - and forget about a break-in or experienced dealer having to pay commission of odd ball bets like $112 from a shot-taker.
this is aside from "Banking player shots" and dragon-hand slowdowns, - and the rest of the crap a casino opertor has to deal with on this game, which should thankfully done away with.

This is also aside from the fact that, (due to the freaking commission), players cannot reasonably bet progressive-betting amounts that are not in multiples of $20 for an even $1 commission, or in even multiples of $5, or a 25 cent commission - and when casino dealers shouldn't even be dealing with f**king silver quarters on a commercial casino game without added breakage!

On EZ Pai Gow, if you want to bet $9, or $14, or $37, or $1,030 - you get full even money pay to the dollar when YOUR progression bet indiicates that you bet that. NO problem for the dealer here!

And Just dealing with numerous 25 cent pieces on a straight up $5 casino game also slows down the crap out of the game, - and where hands per hour is very crucial for a small house;
Chunking out silver dollar coins and 25 pieces turns a cheap $5 Pai Gow game into an absolute casino slow-down joke. The FIRST casino to install of EZ in the state of Nevada - after the $1,000 dollar house of the Barona Casino in San Diego, that is - was at the Fiesta Henderson, a $5 house, and a Stations Property.

Installed on March 29th, 2010, the Director of table games there at the time, Teresa Gonzales, said "Thank GOD we can now get 40 hands out per hour on Pai Gow Poker - without turning this joint into a freakin' Laundromat! - 25 cent pieces belong on the tumble dry setting - and not in a casino! This game is staying!"

Let me say this: both casino dealers as well as casino operators are supposed to pump out hands with the least amount of "fuss or muss," - and that especially concerns waste in $5 casino - as well as bothering $500 players to throw in a $25 green quarter, or really big $10,000 players to throw back in $500 a hand in commissions.

ANYTHING that needlessly bogs down a casino dealer or a casino house - to include "on the spot commission calculations" on oddball amounts, is a huge negative;


ALL commission charges just cost extra to players, and bog down the casino and drive up costs, - and everyine loses on this.


- for high-dollar houses, big money players do NOT like AT ALL paying commissions - per hand - a $500 commission charge on each hand won when playing $10K - or $25 per thousand - so for really high dollar houses - Like the Venetian here in Las Vegas, and the Borona in San Diego, and the Borgata in Atlantic City - EZ Pai Gow is THE game of choice. What soda-swater says here matters little, I am sorry. Let him either run a casino, or design a game that gets out into the real casinos, enough said here.

- for tiny $5 houses, comission-free works better and faster, - as they do not like acting like inner-city laudromats, dispensing 25 cent pieces in a casino operation when the freaking slot operations have long since abandoned quarters for a machine basis.


Quote: sodawater

It can be done almost in one's sleep. Most of the players who win a hand put their commission payment up before the dealer even gets to them. It's completely seamless.



No it isn't, and that's the point - aside from having a significantly higher house edge against the player.

A commission charge, on a slower game, with a higher edge against the player, - helps neither the player OR casino operator. And it will be put to its well-deserved repose very shortly, within two years.

R.I.P. for that, fine riddance.

Call me when you've actually dealt and worked in bona-fide a casino operation in Las Vegas or Atlantic City for a shit-load of years, and when you get YOUR game design out into real casinos, and then when a gaming industry distributor hires you to design their next games.

- and then you can tell us what makes a casino game work better - in the real world.

And not taking shots and talking skag on a forum.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
sodawater
sodawater
Joined: May 14, 2012
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March 28th, 2013 at 10:15:29 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


You've got players betting $87 a hand on commission based Pai Gow just to take shots, and yes - it slows the hell out of the game



There's an extremely simple solution to this "problem." I am sure you know about it, as one of your biggest customers already uses it on their Fortune PG poker, PG tiles, and Minibacc games -- only bets in multiples of $5 are allowed. But I am sure you already know that is the rule at the Borgata and just forgot to mention it.

I would also like to add that even if a player was allowed to bet $87 -- wow, is that so hard? Just round up to $90. $4.50. Have you ever seen a crap dealer freeze up when someone wins a $25 odds bet on the 5? Do blackjack dealers call over the floor if someone bets $45 and hits a natural? It's not that hard. I think the PG poker dealers can be trained to handle a 5% commission.

In fact, craps dealers have to know 5% commission FOR ANY NUMBER up to the table maximum, due to the buy bets, IN ADDITION to every other one of the dozens of different payouts on the felt. I don't think the PG poker dealers had it so hard you had to invent a new game.

Quote: Paigowdan



Call me when you've actually dealt and worked in bona-fide a casino operation in Las Vegas or Atlantic City for a shit-load of years, and when you get YOUR game design out into real casinos, and then when a gaming industry distributor hires you to design their next games.



Never mind the fact that I am not in the game-design business, but I wouldn't want to design a game that takes a classic game and then just adds 69% to the combined house edge (1.46% to 2.47%) -- that just seems too greedy for my tastes.

Second, let's be clear here. You did not invent an entire new game concept. You took a game in the public domain, and changed one rule on it, and then you added a side bet with a paytable that is similar to existing side bets.

Congratulations on your success, but I would argue that it comes at the expense of the already-shriveling pai-gow-poker player base. And I don't need to work in a casino for "shit-load of years" to understand that 1.46 is a smaller number than 2.47.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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March 28th, 2013 at 10:22:35 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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March 28th, 2013 at 11:53:47 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

There's an extremely simple solution to this "problem." I am sure you know about it, as one of your biggest customers already uses it on their Fortune PG poker, PG tiles, and Minibacc games -- only bets in multiples of $5 are allowed. But I am sure you already know that is the rule at the Borgata and just forgot to mention it.


Nope. 100% B.S. on that.
Demanding $5 increments, - or ANY dollar amount demand increments or rules - just annoy players, as they impose new rules and restrictions on them and th casino house, - and just bog down casinos with new rules and restrictions.

They also cause more dealer errors, and more table disputes, simply because people DO bet them, and expect the casino to do the math on the fly on a live table. EZ pai Gow solves these real-world problems with easy even-money pays 100% of the time. Look:....

A dealer doesn't care WHAT a player has a right to bet, - so as long it can be bet easily, and PAID easily. "Any amount in action plays" - is the rule at all casinos! Can't figure it out? - Get a job a Pizza Hut!

If a dealer can't book or pay $117 on a $117 bet won with a 5% commission on Pai Gow Poker, (it pays $111) or $387 on a $387 bet on a bet with a 4% commission on the Baccarat banker bet (it pays $371 after breakage), - then how does he book a $117 "Horn High Yo" on stick while on a jammed up dice game, or a $387 Horn-High Ace-Deuce, - and calculate the low side hit? Or paying off an $89 bet - split or boxed, or street on Roulette?
Now on Pai Gow, these bets cause real problems - because people walk into casinos and do bet them, as they do on dice and Roulette.

EZ Pai Gow was designed to give 100% flat even money pays on ALL player wins, 100% pushes on all ties, and take 100%, as all game should ideally, - for the sake of casino operations and having dealers employable. Bet any amount - you get paid the same amount, and in the same chip color.

Easy for the dealer, and for the house.

Casinos are buying a LOT of the new "Bubble Crap Game" automated dice machines, because they don't make dealing mistakes. Bet $13.87 on a horn-high-12, and you get paid instantly and correctly to the penny - in a flash. They are also buying a lot of EZ Pai Gow tables for the same reason, but with REAL dealers: more hands per hour, less dealer mistakes, lower house edge which the players like, - and the lower house edge is made up by getting more hands out per hour - with less errors.

Trust me when I tell you that casino operators really like that.
It's like I tell them:
1. More hands per hour! -
2. with LESS dealer errors!
3. Players LIKE getting FULL PAY on EVERY SINGLE WIN they can scratch out!
4. because the game is faster, YOU get more table hold WHILE the player actually has a LOWER HOUSE EDGE.
5. Top-scale casinos have already converted to it: The Barona in San Diego, The Borgata Resort in Atlantic City, the Cannery, Ameristar Casinos, the VENETIAN and Palazzo of the Las Vegas Sands Corporation, and every Stations property....it's doing quite well!

They're like:
okay, game looks good - Where can we sign? [And can we make out?? - almost....] Getting to THAT point is a miracle.

Quote: sodawater

Never mind the fact that I am not in the game-design business, but I wouldn't want to design a game that takes a classic game and then just adds 69% to the combined house edge (1.46% to 2.47%) -- that just seems too greedy for my tastes.


It's not 69% to the house edge. The math is public, and it is better for the player.
But I understand. If you feel more comfortable staying away from it, then go to the poker room, and play all the PLAYER-banked games that you feel comfortable with.
Please...

Quote: sodawater

Second, let's be clear here. You did not invent an entire new game concept. You took a game in the public domain, and changed one rule on it, and then you added a side bet with a paytable that is similar to existing side bets.


Not quite. I patented something that a thousand some-odd game inventors missed, - kind of like adjusting your bat stroke ever so slightly - to turn a "bases-loaded ground-out" into a down the line triple. Really unique, really novel, and it really works. And everyone else in this business just flat-out missed it.

It's kind of like telling Thomas Edison, "Well...you didn't invent TUNGSTEN or GLASS BULBS, now did you, buddy??! You just put them together! Pfft - a tungsten string in a glass bulb with electricity going through it! Now how complex is THAT! I would have done THAT in my garage next Tuesday! Electricity and Tungsten both already existed...so you ain't sxxt ! Yada, yada, well shoot....I could have figured it out myself on my day off, too, y'know - if I had figured it out and created it all, and then brought it to market and all of THAT jazz...which ain't shit to me, damn you!"

Trust me, I hear this every day. For that matter, John Lennon and Eric Clapton used notes that were already defined and used by miillions of musicians before them, before THEY re-combined them. I worked hard, looked for it hard, and did the hard, work. Got lucky too, I will admit.

So Remember now, we all in this business just deal with poker, craps, and blackjack, - just trying to do it better. Much better. Anyone who comes up with a brilliant 17-dice game with a thousand rules may indeed have something totally brand new and brilliant. Not that it would be popular. Come up with a new and novel combination that SELLS, now that's tricky....

Quote: sodawater

Congratulations on your success, but I would argue that it comes at the expense of the already-shriveling pai-gow-poker player base.


pai Gow Poker and the poker market is the only market that is growing....Blackjack, Roulette, craps are shrinking...believe me, I spend my days studying this industry. I leave the Blackjack Stuff to Geoff "Switch" Hall, - who is amazing in that area, not that Blackjack is anything new either now.

Quote: sodawater

And I don't need to work in a casino for "shit-load of years" to understand that 1.46 is a smaller number than 2.47.


Uh, no you don't.
But...it might in:
1. Knowing what will be appealing to gamblers, and what just might sell...
2. Knowing how to design a game that might be appealing to gamblers.
3. Might help you to come off as someone who might know what the hell he is talking about in this industry, which I am not convinced that you are, as a member or player here. Not all are, but then, your assessments of EZ pai Gow, Fortune Pai Gow, and other games aren't exactly "on the mark," - nor do they need to be, or that it really matters. You have a login, not a game or a job in the industry, that makes a difference. So if I say you don't know what you're talking about, or are off the mark, that is the case.
4. And yes, you are right that 1.46 is smaller than 2.47. Good for you. And it has nothing to do with any casino games that you may talk about, as the figures of 1.46 and 2.46 are the closest you may ever get in your life to determining the future or performance of any casino game in the casino industry.

Personally and Professionally, if I am ever stuck for math numbers on a casino game, (which is rare), I call either Cindy Liu or Charles Mousseau, and my company cuts them a check at $100/hr.

The figures of "1.46" or "2.47" is....well...the price of a bottle of sodawater.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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March 28th, 2013 at 11:58:43 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Soda, you should know by now Dan only gives two $hit$t about him and his "industry." He couldn't care less what any players think as we think the same of him and his "industry."



I actually care very much what players think. So do a lot of other people in this industry.

But what the 99% of True American Gambling Public thinks - and what they spend their money on in the real casino pit - has very little to do with some of the impromptu game reviews here, especially when they are very far off the mark on a game assessment. Too often it's personal opinion and character attacks falsifying real-world math and game results. Other times it is flowery log rolling reports, when a game is actually dying.

The Gaming industry, on some occasions, actually gets on very insightful field reports here, as well as some insightful game design tips that spot errors in our productions games, or offers some fine recommendations that'll help the games (and the casinos) that you guy play.

And in this business, we check here at this site, but we also cross-check and look at our order books, the Accounts Receivable figures, the "on-site" reports we get from Table Game Directors from around the U.S. and world, the publicly posted table drop and hold figures from states that post figures on the internet, and the table installs, items that would normally say it all.

Don't like a game? - Don't play it. Say why, accurately, and to the point.

Do like a game - you will indeed play it. Say why it is good, and you'll see even more good games.

It doesn't matter how you feel about me or anyone else for telling you gamblers the truth of how it all works. If you want to see a game perform better, say how it can perform better:

- "The Straight Flush Side bet on High Card flush is not giving me enough return - it never seems to hit!"

- "Betting a dollar on the 'Hit and Run' Blackjack progressive gets me no return on that progressive - Blackjack is a fast game, - and the progressive is wiping me out at a $1 a shot!"

- "I like the 21+3 side bet, but we need to see more of the 'Xtreme' paytable - which pays more like three-card poker" or "Keep the orignal table"

- or even, "This game is a rip off of another game that came out in 2006, because of the following common rules..."

etc.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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