AP Pai Gow?

There is a casino near me that offers commission free Pai Gow (they just make their money off of the copies, I guess), and I was wondering if, through the power of banking, it's possible to gain an advantage out of it.

If you're playing at a full table in which you may bank once every 14 hands, and you bet the minimum $5 when not banking (as well as $5 when banking), HOWEVER, the other people at the table are betting well over the minimum. At this point it seems to me that you have a +EV. You win ties, and there's no commission whatsoever. If people are betting $100/hand (and you had enough to cover everyone), it seems like you could make a profit. However, you'd be making a profit from other people, and not the house, which could be considered evil or wrong, but poker players do it.

I'm just wondering if I'm missing something here, or if this is a profitable way to play...

Are you sure no commission Pai Gow allows you to bank? Are you sure that you don't push on a house Q high Pai Gow?

Yeah, this is regular Pai Gow, not EZ Pai Gow. There are no quarters at the table, and they just pay you even money on all wins. It's the Red Dragon Casino in Washington state.

It's better to make the money from the other players than from the house, as long as no one's being cheated, since someone's got to pay for the game. In this case, if they want to try their luck with you as well as with the house, who are you to say no? It sounds too good to be true, though - I'm assuming at the very least the house banks alternate hands?

I don't know much about banking and how much you gain by doing it. Certainly it seems like a great idea..

My own anecdote: My local casino offers commission free, but to get it, you must bet a minimum of $5 on the Fortune Bonus. If I calculated right, there must be a minimum of 4 other players to make it worth it, playing optimally, not considering banking, on a $5 bet. You must have a $25 bet to make it worth it if playing alone. Based on these numbers, I don't see how it's NOT worth it to bank, especially if you don't have to make a side bet..

Some casinos do offer no commission Pai Gow poker using a Bonus bet requirement ($5 bonus per up to a $25 or so main bet), and resort to commission if no adequate bonus bet is made, to produce the house edge; this is done instead of using EZ Pai Gow's queen-high push for the house;
in these cases, the players who skip the bonus bet just pay the commission, or if they did play the bonus anyway, then they can go commission-free that way at these places.

Card rooms and casinos WOULD have to restrict banking, as the player-banker would have the edge against the other players (but not against the house actually, as player banking is player-on-player banking action), but the house still gets no real income from player banking rounds, so it is very restricted. Furthermore, for some houses, Pai Gow Poker generating small income is all right, IF those tables are acting like loss-leaders to generate other table game or other on-premises business.

The advantage of EZ Pai Gow is that the house edge is always there there for the house via the queen-high push, plus there is no "mixing" of commission action with no-commission action at the same time on the same game, speeding game play and making it much easier to manage for the house.

Some EZ Pai Gow houses enforce "just straight Pai Gow poker" with no banking and no dragon hands, but also with no player requirement to play the bonus bets to get this commission-free play. Other casinos allow banking on EZ Pai Gow, but charge a commission on banking rounds only, and against the banker only, - if player banking is allowed.

Most houses just take a "No commission at any time AND no banking at any time," to keep things really simple and fast. Optimal EZ Pai Gow is just straight-up house banked Pai Gow Poker, with no commission, no banking or no dragon hands at any time. Simple and straight-up "no fuss no muss" Pai Gow Poker.

The "best practices" recommendations for EZ Pai Gow are simply :
1. No commission, ever; dealer's hand is a push on the house's Queen-high hand only.
2. No banking or dragon hands.
3. Offer the bonus bet and Pai Gow insurance bet.

Please note that where Banking IS allowed on EZ Pai Gow, the player-banker's queen-high hand is NOT a push - as it is not the house's hand; The Banker's hand is always alive and in play.

As for Player banking with no commission, the player-banker has an advantage if he pays no commission and is not required to make a bonus bet. Also note that in some houses, the bonus bet may pay even money on a straight instead of 2:1, or use a reduced bonus table, to cover for the loss of commission or to allow player banking ("Pai Gow Thrill.")

That is a profitable way to play. The best (only?) place to make money at Pai Gow is at the California/Washington cardrooms. Pick up Stanford Wong's Pai Gow book.

Late to this but I'll add here that if Pai Gow Poker is played w/o commission, and w/o banking, the House edge is about 1.25% using Wiz's 2-Pair strategy and using "House way" on all other hands. If you bank, there is certainly a P.A. possible, especially after reading Wong. BTW... just in case anyone finds this live or on-line... 1/2 commission and no banking is a 2% House edge and is reduced by playing closer to Stanford Wong's optimal strategy. Wiz's 2-pair I think is -1.96% as opposed to 2.01%. OT: I've always thought this ruling was better "House-Wise" for lower-limit Pai Gow Poker. /OT

Another thing I've remembered about where I work.. When you bank, you only have to pay commission on NET profit. So if there's five other players all playing $100, you win the first three and lose the next two, you only pay $5 commission instead of $15. This certainly seems like it would swing that razor thin HA of 0.2% into your favor. Am I right? Is it worth it?

Quote: ewjones080

Another thing I've remembered about where I work.. When you bank, you only have to pay commission on NET profit. So if there's five other players all playing $100, you win the first three and lose the next two, you only pay $5 commission instead of $15. This certainly seems like it would swing that razor thin HA of 0.2% into your favor. Am I right? Is it worth it?

That's how it normally works:-)