13Doc13
13Doc13
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 27
Joined: Mar 6, 2010
March 6th, 2010 at 11:37:20 AM permalink
I would like to start off saying that most people who view this site and the Wizard's original website are more inclined to understand the math behind many of the games which they choose to play. We are the ones who are ALWAYS ridiculed for not playing side bets, playing modest amounts and usually do far better than most other people at the tables. Simply put, we trust the math. However, this game REALLY scares me in this regard. I have played enough in the poker room and home games to see that jack/10 off suit or queen/8 simply do not get the job done!

I understand the idea why these hands should take the full 4-times bet, the game simply is a one-to-one match up with the dealer. However, I just can't take that chance on some starting hands without seeing the flop. I only choose to play the 4-times down with those hands with a 3-2 advantage or better. Wizard, how much additional advantage am I giving the house by playing this strategy?

I have seen people playing pretty close to the optimum strategy and get killed by the results (again, jack/10 doesn't hold up that often). If anyone has successes or horror stories by playing the "correct way", I would love to hear it.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9576
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
March 6th, 2010 at 11:44:35 AM permalink
Quote: 13Doc13

I would like to start off saying that most people who view this site and the Wizard's original website are more inclined to understand the math behind many of the games which they choose to play. We are the ones who are ALWAYS ridiculed for not playing side bets, playing modest amounts and usually do far better than most other people at the tables. Simply put, we trust the math. However, this game REALLY scares me in this regard. I have played enough in the poker room and home games to see that jack/10 off suit or queen/8 simply do not get the job done!

I understand the idea why these hands should take the full 4-times bet, the game simply is a one-to-one match up with the dealer. However, I just can't take that chance on some starting hands without seeing the flop. I only choose to play the 4-times down with those hands with a 3-2 advantage or better. Wizard, how much additional advantage am I giving the house by playing this strategy?

I have seen people playing pretty close to the optimum strategy and get killed by the results (again, jack/10 doesn't hold up that often). If anyone has successes or horror stories by playing the "correct way", I would love to hear it.



I don't know the best strategy for the game, but here is my thought: If you want to deviate from the optimum, the time to do it is when you are in bad position. Stick with it in good position like 'last to speak and no one has opened yet'. Perhaps you've factored that already.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
March 6th, 2010 at 4:17:05 PM permalink
UTH is my game of choice.

First of all, before you do anything else, check out http://www.discountgambling.net

Back? You probably understand things a lot more. To shorten things, let me just say that J-10o and Q-8o are negative e.v. starting hands. The reason you bet them 4x is because you lose less in the long run. Kinda like splitting 8's in blackjack. Mr. Discountgambling gives you some good collusion strategies for playing these types of hands, too.

Just have faith in the strategy, and you'll be fine. I put in a lot of hours at this game, and do quite well. In fact, I just played it today.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Lhornbk70
Lhornbk70
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 40
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 26th, 2010 at 10:03:31 AM permalink
I will give you one small horror story that happened to me last night. I don't totally follow this strategy (mainly because I don't quite have it all memorized yet, and partly because the casino I'm playing at-Boot Hill in Kansas-allows you to play either 3x or 4x at first, so on the more marginal hands I just bet 3x), but I did get pocket aces twice and bet 4x both times. Both times I ended up losing, once to a full house and once to 2 pair. This ended up making me skittish about betting 4x or 3x or ace with smaller cards, and I ended up not winning quite as much money on some hands that should have been bet before the flop. I will definitely memorize the strategy before going again, and make sure to play it no matter what, as I do believe in the long run you're better off. And no, I never bet the trips anymore, especially since this casino only pays 4-1 on straight instead of 5-1.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
July 27th, 2010 at 8:36:27 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Lhornbk70
Lhornbk70
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 40
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 27th, 2010 at 1:05:18 PM permalink
I will tell everyone a story my dealer told me the other night. He had a guy actually betting blind the whole night (in other words, he would automaticaly bet before the flop without even looking at the cards-he was betting 3x instead of 4x-and was betting the table maximum, which is $50 on the ante and blind and therefore $150 on the play.) He ended up winning something like $3000 playing this way. I don't remember for sure if the dealer said he played the trips or not, but I don't think so. No way I could ever play without looking at the cards, but that shows you that even the dumb plays get lucky sometimes. It also makes me wonder how much he could have won if he had played properly and either bet later or folded some of his bad hands.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1573
Joined: May 5, 2010
July 27th, 2010 at 1:31:15 PM permalink
Quote: Lhornbk70

And no, I never bet the trips anymore, especially since this casino only pays 4-1 on straight instead of 5-1.



Actually, the best paytable is 50-40-30-9-7-4(straight)-3

If you are lucky enough to find that table, play it hard. The only places I've seen this schedule was MGM Grand Detroit and Paris/Bally's Las Vegas (both of them offered it).
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
July 27th, 2010 at 1:43:24 PM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

Actually, the best paytable is 50-40-30-9-7-4(straight)-3

If you are lucky enough to find that table, play it hard.

Why? It's still a 0.9% house edge. Great for a side bet, but still an overall loser. Also, I'm not sure, but I don't think MGM Detroit still offers it.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
OneAngryDwarf
OneAngryDwarf
  • Threads: 44
  • Posts: 254
Joined: Dec 17, 2009
July 27th, 2010 at 2:16:25 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

This games gets quite funny when you are hole-carding it and raise 4x with 3/2 offsuit then get a "lucky" win with only a pair of 2's. You get some wierd looks when your cards are turned over and the others see this.




I understand if you don't want to reveal any of your "secrets" here, but I am curious: assuming you can see both dealer cards, is the correct strategy simply to go in 4x on any hand that beats the dealer right out of the box? For example to raise on 2/3 I have to assume that you knew the dealer had 2/7 or 2/8 offsuit.

(edit: silly me, I just realized you said you won with a pair of deuces...make that "you knew the dealer had 3/4 or 3/8 off suit." If that's the case, have you worked out your own strategy to use when you can see one or both of the dealer's cards?)
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight... I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
teddys
teddys
  • Threads: 150
  • Posts: 5527
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
July 27th, 2010 at 2:46:54 PM permalink
Actually, in UTH 32o is the worst starting hand E.V.-wise. Even 72o or 82o have a better expectation. So, I'm also curious why he would bet that 4x in that situation, unless the hole cards that he saw were the community cards.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
dwheatley
dwheatley
  • Threads: 25
  • Posts: 1246
Joined: Nov 16, 2009
July 27th, 2010 at 3:11:23 PM permalink
I think the hole card you will see is one of the community cards. If you know you are going to pair, that's probably enough to bet 4x.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
OneAngryDwarf
OneAngryDwarf
  • Threads: 44
  • Posts: 254
Joined: Dec 17, 2009
July 27th, 2010 at 9:36:15 PM permalink
Makes sense. I had forgotten that in many casinos the community cards are dealt out before the hole cards, so it's possible to catch a glimpse. In AC they deal it like a traditional Hold'em game...hole cards are pitched to the players, then burn a card and put the board cards up.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight... I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
Lhornbk70
Lhornbk70
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 40
Joined: Jul 26, 2010
July 28th, 2010 at 5:00:57 AM permalink
Quote: Tiltpoul

Actually, the best paytable is 50-40-30-9-7-4(straight)-3

If you are lucky enough to find that table, play it hard. The only places I've seen this schedule was MGM Grand Detroit and Paris/Bally's Las Vegas (both of them offered it).



No, that is not the right paytable. I know 9-1 for a full house is not on it. This casino has no competition at all for at least a couple of hundred miles (and even once some of the others get opened in Kansas, it will probably still have a radius of at least 100 miles without competition) and so doesn't have to worry about drawing gamblers in with better paytables. The craps table only has 3X odds, and blackjack hits soft 17 and does NOT allow you to double down after a split (they do at least pay 3-2 instead of the 6-5 nonsense.) But, even with these disadvantages, it's still 100 times better than the nearest Indian casino in Oklahoma that I could drive to instead.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1573
Joined: May 5, 2010
July 28th, 2010 at 1:41:46 PM permalink
Quote: Lhornbk70

No, that is not the right paytable. I know 9-1 for a full house is not on it. This casino has no competition at all for at least a couple of hundred miles (and even once some of the others get opened in Kansas, it will probably still have a radius of at least 100 miles without competition) and so doesn't have to worry about drawing gamblers in with better paytables. The craps table only has 3X odds, and blackjack hits soft 17 and does NOT allow you to double down after a split (they do at least pay 3-2 instead of the 6-5 nonsense.) But, even with these disadvantages, it's still 100 times better than the nearest Indian casino in Oklahoma that I could drive to instead.



I hear you on that. Dodge City is out in the middle of nowhere.

By the way, as a response to someone else who said it still is a .9% house advantage...

Considering that the game itself has a 2.1% house advantage on each dollar bet (yes I know the Element of Risk is lower), that Trips bet is still a decent bet. Furthermore, I'd be willing to guess that the amount of dollars actually at risk would make you look like a higher roller. Obviously, it is still a house bet, I understand that. So is nearly every game in the casino. But when a full house hits it's nice to get paid, especially if you get beat.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9576
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
February 21st, 2012 at 2:22:47 PM permalink
Funny how I have ignored these threads while thinking I was never going to play. Checking more into it now.

I'm probably going to try Ultimate Texas Hold-em one of these days. The advice the Wizard gives for best play is fairly complicated, although I think if you are familiar with poker most of the decisions are easy, and of course at the first decision if you are to play you just sit back for the rest of the hand.

In order to practice the game, the Wizard page links me to this site for a free game. Possibly using a different strategy, the game indicates the correct play by highlighting the bet to make. If nothing lights up, the correct play is not to raise [or "play"]. Unfortunately it seems to go by a different strategy slightly, sure wish the Wizard had his own practice game with training features [yep, I know about his calculator; not the same].

First question: I think this game has taken off pretty good, but is not that old? I can't seem to find it's history, anyone know it?

Main question: In the WoO strategies, the kicker value is often considered. At first I was thinking the kicker in your hole cards was what he means, but it would seem a shared kicker is not disqualified, but counts. Can that be confirmed?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 1573
Joined: May 5, 2010
February 21st, 2012 at 2:32:20 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit


First question: I think this game has taken off pretty good, but is not that old? I can't seem to find it's history, anyone know it?



I don't know specifics, but the first place I saw this game offered was Rhythm City in Davenport, IA. That was probably 6 years ago now, and at that time, it was one of the first Hold Em games that mimicked actual Hold Em (THE Bonus being the other one, which I think got to market first). Since then, it's exploded, although its success is determined largely by the market.

Quote: odiousgambit

Main question: In the WoO strategies, the kicker value is often considered. At first I was thinking the kicker in your hole cards was what he means, but it would seem a shared kicker is not disqualified, but counts. Can that be confirmed?



You have to consider all the kickers in play. For example, Board: 6-6-K-K-A, the board is going to play unless you hold a 6, K, A or higher pocket pair. However a board of 5-5-6-A-10, you count the A and hopefully both cards (K-J). If the kicker is below the 10, it's not worth playing.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
February 21st, 2012 at 3:17:54 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
RoyalBJ
RoyalBJ
  • Threads: 33
  • Posts: 260
Joined: Jul 18, 2011
February 21st, 2012 at 4:02:16 PM permalink
(1) In the long run, the discountgaming.net strategy works. All math are for the long run, aren't they? You may be looking at 4x of 100 hands (in 5-6 hours), winning 55 and losing 45. That's the EV. This is the only game I play in any casino.

(2) Story: two guys are Red Rock casino, Vegas, always play 4x on Play, every hand, before flop. (i.e., $25-trips, $15-$15-$60 every single hand). Each would buy in $500, when each was up $200, they quit and cashed out. The dealer commented "they do this all time and their win/loss reports are just like others". It's all in money management. If you hit a couple of full-houses and quit, you win. If you keep playing, you give the money back. The optimal strategy can not make big money for you, you either win small or lose small.
tmdeee
tmdeee
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 2
Joined: Apr 27, 2012
April 27th, 2012 at 2:24:29 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

Why? It's still a 0.9% house edge. Great for a side bet, but still an overall loser. Also, I'm not sure, but I don't think MGM Detroit still offers it.



I just checked all the UTH tables at at MGM Detroit, and the trips payoffs are still the 0.9% variety. They never, however, go below a $10 minimum, unlike the other two Detroit casinos which will go $5 sometimes, especially during the day.
  • Jump to: