Warped Roulette, Card Counting or any other Advantage Play...is it fair?
Quote: Paigowdan
The days of mooching money from gaming businesses as a career are pretty much over.
'Mooching money'? Who does that. If you mean legit advantage
play, you couldn't be farther from the truth. You're like the guy
who thinks if he says something often enough, it will come true.
Quote: DanMahownySeriously, is this guy for real? Fold the hand due to a sloppy dealer?
Play the hand, regardless of dealer, then TELL the dealer.
Quote: DanMahownyPaigowdan- you are my favorite poster.....absolutely hilarious!
Thanks.
You also have to consider that I have a gaming license to lose:
- by seemingly being in collusion with any dealer wrongdoing, or;
- if I capitalize on a hole-carding situation.
absolutely hilarious, eh?
Quote: Paigowdan
You also have to consider that I have a gaming license to lose:
We don't have to consider anything, just like you don't
consider a heavily losing player might have a mortgage
to pay or kids to feed. You've said many times its not the
casinos responsibility to look out for a players personal
finances, yet you seem to have endless tasks you want
the player to perform in favor of the casino.
Quote: PaigowdanSure.
It is enough to tell the dealer alone, and I do mention it. People learn from their mistakes and improve. The pit boss would be annoyed with the dealer.
If it warrants the pit boss' attention, I tell the pit boss. If it doesn't, then I don't.
Would the dealer call a misdeal on himself? I am not about to play my jack high at that time !
Quote: PaigowdanPlay the hand, regardless of dealer, then TELL the dealer.
Thanks.
You also have to consider that I have a gaming license to lose:
- by seemingly being in collusion with any dealer wrongdoing, or;
- if I take advantage of hole-carding situation.
absolutely hilarious, eh?
But this is the entertainment industry. Yes, you see people everyday who are trying to make a living playing the games, but for some of us it's a fun thing to do a couple of times a year. And it wouldn't be fun to sit and play with a dealer who seems to be perpetually at war with the customers!
I've waited tables and tended bar and there's always someone who wants something for nothing. But I also know it's cheaper to cook at home and mix my own cocktails. If a waiter treated me like I was there to steal his pen while signing the credit card slip, I'd absolutely never return and it would save me money.
Train your dealers to protect the game, but don't blame the players when they don't.
And hey--a casino in Atlantic City just beat aceofspades out of $7500 this weekend, so the industry has some wiggle room for me to win a little something next weekend!
(Sorry, ace...)
Hey, the casino had a partner in that heist. His name is " ACEOFSPADES " .
Quote: FarFromVegasI've gone back to stores days later to pay for merchandise they've forgotten to charge me for. But if I see a king, I am not going to play my queen as if I hadn't seen it! I'm not talking a sloppy dealer--I'm talking a single, isolated event.
For the record, I have never seen a flashed hole card. And a dealer intentionally flashed the first card at LIR once to try to help me when I was letting it ride on a draw, but I wasn't going to pull the bet back anyway. (Yes, I tip. :D )
Don't tip for that. Leave the table pronto!
Quote: 1BBDon't tip for that. Leave the table pronto!
I tip when I buy chips for LIR. I didn't have a bet out for the dealer, so no collusion could have been implied from his action.
Believe me, I had no clue why he did it! Maybe because I was nice? There are some real grouches in casinos.
Quote: EvenBobWe don't have to consider anything, just like you don't
consider a heavily losing player might have a mortgage
to pay or kids to feed. You've said many times its not the
casinos responsibility to look out for a players personal
finances, yet you seem to have endless tasks you want
the player to perform in favor of the casino.
It's really and simply the player's responsibility to not gamble with money he cannot afford to lose.
And Players don't have to perform endless tasks, - they just have to avoid performing tasks of casino malfeasance.
Quote: FarFromVegasBut this is the entertainment industry. Yes, you see people everyday who are trying to make a living playing the games, but for some of us it's a fun thing to do a couple of times a year. And it wouldn't be fun to sit and play with a dealer who seems to be perpetually at war with the customers!
Of course. Dealers are very social and friendly to fun and gracious people, but may clamp down and report those who are up to no good.
Quote: FarFromVegasI've waited tables and tended bar and there's always someone who wants something for nothing. But I also know it's cheaper to cook at home and mix my own cocktails. If a waiter treated me like I was there to steal his pen while signing the credit card slip, I'd absolutely never return and it would save me money.
Of course.
Quote: FarFromVegasTrain your dealers to protect the game, but don't blame the players when they don't.
Nope, sorry.
Everyone is responsible for their own conduct, and if a dealer doesn't protect a game, that does not justify or absolve any wrong doing on anyone else's part. If you were careless and left a door unlock or the alarm system off, that wouldn't absolve a burglar from ripping off your stuff, even though you were at fault in the protecion of your home.
Quote: PaigowdanAnd Players don't have to perform endless tasks, - they just have to avoid performing tasks of casino malfeasance.
Just curious.....when I am counting cards, am I performing tasks of casino malfeasance?
If yes, I'll start telling my lovely wife Belinda "Honey, I'm off to perform tasks of casino malfeasance."
Quote: PaigowdanEveryone is responsible for their own conduct, and if a dealer doesn't protect a game, that does not justify or absolve any wrong doing on anyone else's part. If you were careless and left a door unlock or the alarm system off, that wouldn't absolve a burglar from ripping off your stuff, even though you were at fault in the protecion of your home.
How do you rule on the Sic Bo layout that was paying out at 80-1 instead of 60-1? Were the players thieves? The casino was careless in installing a misprinted felt.
Quote: 1BB
Quote: FarFromVegas
And a dealer intentionally flashed the first card at LIR once to try to help me when I was letting it ride on a draw, but I wasn't going to pull the bet back anyway. (Yes, I tip. :D )
Don't tip for that. Leave the table pronto!
This happened to me at a 3CP table. In fact the dealer wasn't even trying to surreptitious, she actually flipped the top card OVER before I made my playing decision as if to say, "need a little help with that?" I was so confused I think I made a tip bet for her on the next hand without even thinking about the possibilities for collusion. I'm pretty sure she only did this on 2 hands, so it was probably just a highly ill-advised "bait and switch" maneuver on her part or something. In any case, it was highly irregular and a great example of poor training. It's highly evident many dealers don't understand the math behind the games they are dealing.
That Sic Bo story was a good one. PM me if you know of any other 12% advantage :-)
Quote: DanMahownyJust curious.....when I am counting cards, am I performing tasks of casino malfeasance?
If you get backed off, flat betted, or 86-ed or worse, then you'll know. You also know that if you have to use cover plays, disguises, and the like, then the need to perform subterfuge should also be a tip-off. You hide in order to conceal up wrong doing, not proper actions.
Quote: DanMahownyIf yes, I'll start telling my lovely wife Belinda "Honey, I'm off to perform tasks of casino malfeasance."
And she will believe you.
Quote: FarFromVegasHow do you rule on the Sic Bo layout that was paying out at 80-1 instead of 60-1? Were the players thieves? The casino was careless in installing a misprinted felt.
Yes, in that case the casino is careless in installing a misprinted felt.
Quote: Paigowdan
Yes, in that case the casino is careless in installing a misprinted felt.
Their carelessness resulted in players winning more money than they would have under normal circumstances.
A dealer's carelessness can result in players winning more money than they would under normal circumstances.
Neither example should be analogous to thievery. If a careless dealer turns his head and a player takes that opportunity to swipe a fistful of chips, that is indeed theft. If a careless dealer flashes a card and a player uses that information to determine his play on that particular hand, it is not theft.
Quote: FarFromVegasTheir carelessness resulted in players winning more money than they would have under normal circumstances.
A dealer's carelessness can result in players winning more money than they would under normal circumstances.
No, a dealer error is not a misprint scenario. A dealer error does not make the money yours. The floorman may ask you to return money. He may say, "You were paid for a full house, but only had a three of a kind. Please return $10." Or, "You were paid on a push, please return the $25,' etc.
And many players often respond, "No! It's MINE, - all MINE! Go Away!" I've seen it many times. Others have reponded more graciously, "You are right, I did not legitimately win that hand, we both had 19, and it WAS a push; here it is back...." etc.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, a dealer error is not a misprint scenario. A dealer error does not make the money yours. The floorman may ask you to return money. He may say, "You were paid for a full house, but only had a three of a kind. Please return $10." Or, "You were paid on a push, please return the $25,' etc.
And many players often respond, "No! It's MINE, - all MINE! Go Away!" I've seen it many times. Others have reponded more graciously, "You are right, I did not legitimately win that hand, we both had 19, and it WAS a push; here it is back...." etc.
I wasn't talking about improper payment of chips. I'm talking about use of information! If I see a king, I will fold a queen. I will not think "I'm have to put out another 5 bucks to play my queen high because that's basic strategy and I wasn't supposed to see that king," I will think, "No way I can win; I'm folding." That is not cheating or theft. It is refusing to make a bad bet--a cardinal tenet of our Fearless Leader.
I've mentioned before I've gone back to a store to to pay for items that weren't rung up. I can think of at least three incidents, and two of them required me to go back days later--not minutes, days--to pay. And the cashiers looked at me like I had three heads. I tell cashiers when they give me too much change. My son told a cashier she gave him too much once, when he was 7 years old!
Using accidental information is not cheating or stealing. It is up to the casino and the dealers to make sure they aren't giving away information, not the players.
Quote: rainmanI'm petty sure the only reason you returned to pay for the items that weren't rung up is your fear of dirty harry hunting you down and shooting your ass. :)
Nah--I feel lucky, punk!
Quote: FarFromVegasI wasn't talking about improper payment of chips. I'm talking about use of information! If I see a king, I will fold a queen. I will not think "I'm have to put out another 5 bucks to play my queen high because that's basic strategy and I wasn't supposed to see that king," I will think, "No way I can win; I'm folding." That is not cheating or theft. It is refusing to make a bad bet--a cardinal tenet of our Fearless Leader.
Fine. But such a scenario is not proper play or the intent of the game's rules, - no matter who is at fault. When I see wrong or improper play - game play the way it ISN'T suppose to be, I say something.
Quote: FarFromVegasI've mentioned before I've gone back to a store to to pay for items that weren't rung up. I can think of at least three incidents, and two of them required me to go back days later--not minutes, days--to pay. And the cashiers looked at me like I had three heads. I tell cashiers when they give me too much change. My son told a cashier she gave him too much once, when he was 7 years old!
Very fine. I try to practice such behavior in all situations myself for all transactions , not selectively. It's a "what I do" kind of thing in all cases, not in some cases. A bad transaction is simply that, regardless of it being a 7-11, a casino, a movie house, a Jack-in-the-Box drive thru, what have you.
Quote: FarFromVegasUsing accidental information is not cheating or stealing.
That depends entirely on the situation and how you use that information; stumbling across your roomate's combination for his safe and using that 'accidental information" is such a scenario: "Well, shoot, he left it where I can find it!" kind of thing. Granted, there is a difference between a player actively hole-carding, versus the dealer doing the flashing, but I make it a rule to not be involved in, or take advantage of, any questionable situations.
Quote: FarFromVegasIt is up to the casino and the dealers to make sure they aren't giving away information, not the players.
Sure, casinos are responsible for the behavior and actions of their employees. But again, people are not let off the hook, and remain responsible for their actions in various situations.
Quote: FarFromVegas
Using accidental information is not cheating or stealing. It is up to the casino and the dealers to make sure they aren't giving away information, not the players.
Oh, you are soooo misguided. This is just one of the
things on Dan's list thats OUR responsibility AND the
casinos. Its up to us to tell the dealer or the pit of
the accidental info you got and NOT use it for your
own benefit. According to Dan, we have to police our
own actions AND those of the casino.
Quote: EvenBobOh, you are soooo misguided. This is just one of the
things on Dan's list thats OUR responsibility AND the
casinos. Its up to us to tell the dealer or the pit of
the accidental info you got and NOT use it for your
own benefit. According to Dan, we have to police our
own actions AND those of the casino.
No. I said you just have to police your own actions; the casino polices their employees.
If you take wrong money, you may be asked for it back, or have some explaining to do, depending on the situation.
Quote: PaigowdanNo. I said you just have to police your own actions;
C'mon Dan. You've said many times its our job as
players to make dealer errors known to the dealer
or pit and not use them to make money.
Quote: Paigowdan
That depends entirely on the situation and how you use that information; stumbling across your roomate's combination for his safe and using that 'accidental information" is such a scenario: "Well, shoot, he left it where I can find it!" kind of thing. Granted, there is a difference between a player actively hole-carding, versus the dealer doing the flashing, but I make it a rule to not be involved in, or take advantage of, any questionable situations.
My sister and I share a safe when we go to Atlantic City and she chooses the code, which is the one she uses for her ATM card and garage keypad. I will not take her money out of the safe, or her ATM card, or go to her house and clean her out, because THAT is theft.
Now, if I fold that queen and the dealer turns over my cards and asks why I folded a playable hand, I wouldn't say anything if there were other players who could use the information. AFTER they had played their hands, I would let the dealer know I had seen the card. If I were alone at the table I would tell that I knew I couldn't beat their hand.
Quote: EvenBobC'mon Dan. You've said many times its our job as
players to make dealer errors known to the dealer
or pit and not use them to make money.
No, You don't have to. Many do, and many don't.
I believe that most people would take money they know they didn't rightfully ern or win.
Quote: FarFromVegasMy sister and I share a safe when we go to Atlantic City and she chooses the code, which is the one she uses for her ATM card and garage keypad. I will not take her money out of the safe, or her ATM card, or go to her house and clean her out, because THAT is theft.
Yes, not ripping off my family members is a good rule.
Quote: FarFromVegasNow, if I fold that queen and the dealer turns over my cards and asks why I folded a playable hand, I wouldn't say anything if there were other players who could use the information.
Of course not, it would look bad saying "I know you have at least a King high, so I folded my queen." I would say, "Dealer, - don't flash your hand, protect your game." I have.
Quote: FarFromVegasAFTER they had played their hands, I would let the dealer know I had seen the card. If I were alone at the table I would tell that I knew I couldn't beat their hand.
This is fine.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMy job is to make a bet and either lose it or get paid. No need to say a word to anyone for any reason.
My goal is to make a bet and either lose it or get paid on a clean game. I would say some words to someone for a reason.
My disclosure is as follows: I am a parasite, by definition, and take advantage of the host; larger Parasitic Casino...ha ha ha
At least I have full disclosure, unlike you phony stuffed suits...
Quote: PaigowdanNo, You don't have to.
I know we don't HAVE to, but you always
say we should. We should tell the dealer
or pit when theres a mistake in our favor.
I will say that I know for sure that players would scream the riot act if a procedural error were in favor the house, and that almost as many would silently hope and pray that an error the other way doesn't get caught or noticed until the wrong money was paid out and safe in the hand, gotten away with.
Quote: EdgeLookerI was once at a full blackjack table when the dealer accidentally flipped his hole card over revealing that he had two face cards for 20. The pit boss allowed the game to continue (1 player had blackjack). A crowd behind us who didn't see the hole card were wondering why we were all hitting our hard 17, 18, and 19's. I doubt if any of us felt morally responsible to stay on those obviously dead hands. :)
You weren't; once the floor supervisor makes a call, it is essentially a temporary game rule (almost always in the players' favor on a dealer screw-up) to account for the situation. In other cases and on other games, a game play or hand may be reconstructed to determine what the outcome should have been, and the payout adjusted.
Quote: EdgeLookerI doubt if any of us felt morally responsible to stay on those obviously dead hands. :)
The casino doesn't like your kind of behavior.. Aren't
you afraid of going straight to hell?
you afraid of going straight to hell? "
Should have a welcoming committee of forum members when you get there. All except for Saint Dan !
I do not see the conflict fading anytime soon between Casinos and the Ap's.......which is fine with me :-)
Quote: bigpete88I think Saint "Suit" Dan has one Cohort on here and all the "Suits" that do not make comments.
I do not see the conflict fading anytime soon between Casinos and the Ap's.......which is fine with me :-)
Surely EvenBob is not Dan's only cohort ?
I think it was Bingo but not 100% sure. Do not feel like reading 30 pages back to find out. Working on AP now :-)
Quote: bigpete88I think Saint "Suit" Dan has one Cohort on here and all the "Suits" that do not make comments.
I do not see the conflict fading anytime soon between Casinos and the Ap's.......which is fine with me :-)
I do. Aside from the occasional break-in dealer that AP's love to gang-bang on, there are generally no longer any gaping holes. Some smaller "beatable" game scenarios may simply be lures.
Long term conflict? Not only casinos, but Banks, transit systems, owners of copyrighted or patented IP, food service operations, cinemas, retail stores, you name it - ALL have to address the cat-and-mouse game of pilferage, theft, loss prevention, and the like from all sorts of "entitled scammers" who justify their actions. One can argue that bringing tupperware to a buffet, or using counterfeit movie or transit passes, or slugs on a vending machine, is also a pretty slick AP play for those who advocate that, also.
As time goes on, it gets harder and harder to not play by the rules, - and to actually and willingly pay your way - in the receiving of any products or services, including gaming/gambling services.
I just have trouble obeying " unseen rules ". Sort of makes ignorance of the law a valid defense .
Quote: buzzpaff" it gets harder and harder to not play by the rules "
I just have trouble obeying " unseen rules ". Sort of makes ignorance of the law a valid defense .
No, they're really seen and known. This is like the local 7-11 posting signs that say "It is forbidden to stick us up." For some reason, most people seem to get this without saying, "Now WHERE IS IT WRITTEN that I can't stick you up....Aha, you SEE, I got you now! Muahaha..."
before just being called a cheater !
P.S. Back in Baltimore I was hoping to have my nephew Rick and his girlfriend move in with my 74 year old brother-in-law,
and help care for him in return for free room and board. But Rick is not eligible for parole until November.
He was a good kid along time ago. Now age 42 and serving second term for armed robbery.
Dan "The Suit" wants to apply the internal rules of the Casino to all players and he expects that we should abide by them.
I would have respect for a Casino if they changed the rules to make the game unbeatable but fair to all. As of now, I have zero respect for them.
What the Casinos do now in Nevada is use the Tresspassing Act as a tool to bar a winning player at a game offered to the public but allow squares to play the same game.
Quote: buzzpaffNow if I use my brain playing a game of cards, I am akin to an armed robber. Gee, and I was pissed off
before just being called a cheater !
Actually, if you use your brains, you might find yourself avoiding quite a bit of trouble and being able to play.
It's when you get flat-betted, 86-ed, and the like, is the sign of a brain not working optimally.
