Warped Roulette, Card Counting or any other Advantage Play...is it fair?

" True, but we don't wear false moustaches, and our wives hate us less. "

I will consider that just a hasty thought on your part. No apology needed,but do no repeat it.

Quote: Paigowdan

Don't let it hurt your feelings, really. I'm not a priest you'll see in confession.

It doesn't trust me and it doesn't make me want to quit what I do. I still say just use the term "undesirable."

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I don't either and I'm single. I can disappear when I want with no explaination needed.

okay. I can't disappear. Used to be able to when I was single, between marriages. We talking Two weeks in Bangkok.
And a part of me misses those good old days.

I do see the appeal, but think better of it now.

Quote: bigpete88

My opinion is that the player is ethically bound to himself to play to the best of his ability using every legal means. The casino has a 5.26% advantage on a double green Roulette wheel so if a player can legally Advantage Play, I see nothing wrong with this. What is your opinion and why?

Forget the casino for a moment, and consider competitive poker playing. Is using your head to calculate, and taking advantage of errors (as long as you didn't precipiate them) of other players cheating? Perhaps it is honorable to point out among friends an error instead of capitalizing on it, but since when is a casino your friend?

In a casino, you're in a game to take more money from the house than they take from you. They're just as willing to take a higher cut than the stated house percentage on your mistakes, as you are on theirs. Some, who may or may not have a baboon brain, call this cheating ONLY when the player does it.

My bank may drop a million in my account by accident. But I am not in a stated game to win money from my bank. If I am, it's undeclared, so I do consider it legitimate for my bank to want it back. My cashier may forget to ring up an item, but again I am not in a stated game to win money from that store.

Every player in the poker room knows they might lose. They don't want to lose, but every one walked in there with full knowledge that they might, and if they can't live with that, that's their problem. The game isn't being funded by, doesn't depend on, any one player's winnings.

Quote: IvanYerkanoff

I don't know where you got the low down on card-counters impact on the casino's bottom line but you may have some misconceptions about it all. I saw a thread on this forum talking about how many professional blackjack players there are with the definition of the term to mean playing full time profitably with blackjack comprising your primary source of income with counting alone being their only method of AP. I've seen that question brought up before between a group of professional blackjack players and they estimated to the tune of a few hundred. The figure is that low because I am not talking about the blackjack equivalent of the "homeless professional poker players association" either. You know, guys that tell you that they are a poker pro... and living out of their car... uhm, that's called being a homeless person because apparently you are not exactly making a living!

Is there the blackjack equivalent of "Reefer madness" out there to float you with this propaganda that some counters could have any real effect on the casinos bottom line? Wait! Maybe that movie "21"? I recall a discussion talking about how ridiculous that movie was with one notable player stating that "Every casino should show this movie for free in their theater and then have a red carpet leading out of the exit directly into the blackjack pit!" Please allow me to explain why casinos should welcome counters with open arms because in the overall and in the longhaul, they are making the casino money! There is a lot of hype when it comes to card-counting. It's all designed to sell books... and maybe even to scare the daylights out of the casinos getting them all paranoid so outside consulting firms can come in and charge them a bunch of money to keep them... from losing a bunch of money!?! What a batch of counters may take down is probably less than the portion of Gary Loveman's bonus that he hands to his wife to go blow at Tiffany's. You might have been sucked into the hype bandwagon on just how dangerous those counters are to the casino's bottom line when in fact they are not.

How are you missing the fact that this situation is precisely because counting is forbidden? Before they were allowed to flat-bet guests, AC's tables were liabilities. Not less profitable, liabilities. In the "long haul," (and only in the long haul) competent counters are not making the casino money, and incompetent counters arise because no one's allowed to correct them at the tables themselves, the way people do with BS, and they have to hide what they're doing, making it much harder. It doesn't matter how many counters there are now, or how bad most of them are now.

Quote: IvanYerkanoff

How could I say such an outlandish thing you may ask and how can card-counters be GOOD for a casino? That's easy enough to answer and you don't have to be a NASA engineer to understand the math of it. You see, the vast majority of card-counters fail miserably, probably to the tune of about 95% of them. Others have other obligations in life and don't devote any real time to the project. They never see the long run go their way. There's a lot of potential reasons for failure to include underfinanced, poor money management skills, less than stellar actual counting skill and ability, geographical location issues and the list goes on and on. They read "Blackbelt in blackjack" and a week later they are suddenly a blackjack pro! and then they get some lessons in life taught to them. This overwhelming majority that get that rude awakening and find out that it's not so easy contribute far more than the few that are successful take.

Where are you getting these numbers? Oh, right, nowhere. If someone is playing a winning game (which I'll grant not all counters are, but that might be different if they could trade tips openly), it doesn't matter whether they're up or down, just like it doesn't matter when people win at blackjack legitimately. The casino's always there for the long run. Moreover, no one would fall for films like 21 if actual counting techniques were better-known, as they would be if practiced openly, and they'd be much easier without concealment. The blackjack pits would become as stuffed with hopeful AP'ers as the poker room, except unlike the poker room, here they could indeed all win - except the ones who set the whole thing up, that is.

Quote: IvanYerkanoff

A basic count in itself is no threat to today's blackjack games. Many countermeasures are built right into the game and it's not 1985 anymore. Not only that, most counters are using a pathetically simple count, are under financed and are likely to succumb and bust out simply because they THINK they can win, making them likely to lose more than the average gambler. Inexperienced novices will make mistakes and go "on tilt" much easier. That will eliminate much of any anticipated positive EV, wiping them out before they ever get off the ground.This HELPS the casino's bottom line rather than hurting it. A simple count in itself is not enough to win at today's blackjack games. You better have a lot more than just that in your arsenal if you want to succeed. Next time you see someone that you think is a counter... give them a hug because they are helping keep you in a job and are making the casino money!

A "pathetically simple count" is enough to get the game in your favor, and a low bankroll doesn't actually affect your EV much, provided that you leave as soon as you can't double or split at the top of your spread. Sure, you're more likely to go broke, but if enough players play like that, some of them are going to win, and the wins are going to outpace the losses. This is the equivalent of seeing how many Martingale players leave ahead because of their large bankrolls, and deciding the Martingale must be losing the casino money.

24Bingo brought out some good points.

Given enough card counters, even as a simple wide spread practice, is enough to cause damage. It is not a case where gamblers are taking from weaker gamblers, as in any sort of player-banked action such as poker rooms. In player-banked action such as poker rooms, the house may be subjected to absolutely no losses, and takes a "trickle vig stream" on the action to offer the gambling service. NOT SO in house-banked games.

1. To be an AP player, casino cheat, or even a more mild catagory card counter isn't an iota less than being a parasite against a legitimate business if against the rules.

2. The "house edge" on house-banked games IS the business operational charge needed to offer the game in the first place, and is supposed to be there and accepted by players going into the game, much like paying an enterance fee for a shoe or movie, or a bill for a restaurant. Can we reasonably expect or demand that casinos and gambling halls to offer gambling services for free - or at a loss - (like we're generally such treats to just deal to) - while calling them "parasitic," - simply for instituting loss prevention guidelines that allow their businesses to operate in the first place? No.

3. The name calling against any gaming business which caters to people's gambling entertainment desires, as being "parasites themselves" is simply projection - or the use of an accusation that your victim or target is actually the "evil or parasitic one" when you attempt some form of rip-off or scam yourself that you know is against the house rules. This is which is exactly what hole-carding, card-counting, and the like are.

The people who counterfeit transit system passes, sneak into movies via broken door locks, or commit any other sort of "theft of services" also justify it by declaring one or more of the various "arguments of rationality" below, such as:

- declaring the target business to be parasitic, when the perpertrator is actually parastic, and knowingly breaking the rules. ("Projection" of one own's selfish wrong doing onto the target or victim.)

- the target business of being "amply rich" or "rich enough" to afford such losses ("the Robin Hood" argument. "He's big, or rich, or successful, or can afford it, and so deserves to be a victim of theft or malfeasance.")

- or, the money comes directly from the business being "at fault by being unable to counter the mechanism to theft" (the old blame-the-victim argument: "He left his home's door open, or with weak locks, or had stupid floormen - so I had a God given right to burgle" argument, or the.... "Her dress was too sexy, so she was asking to be groped or raped" argument.)

- or, the money comes from, and is paid for, by the more honest or naive customers who don't commit such illicit actions themselves ("the money I take from casinos is paid for by the more stupid and naive customers, who don't have such skills, or are stupid enough to play by the silly house rules, or in good faith - so who am I taking money from but some goody two-shoes morons?? It's Darwinism! What IDIOTS - they deserve to LOSE because I am able to WIN this way!" argument.)

And what have you.

When laws and rules are overtly wrong and horrific (such as in a nation's Genocide, as in "the other race, or Serbians, or Blacks in old South Africa or southern U.S. states, or infidels, or Gypsies, or Jews - are inferior Godless people, who must die or go to gas chambers or be beheaded - or at least be segregated - by being different from me") - I can see these rules being broken in the name of being thoroughly righteous, like Shindler's list or Anne Frank or Martin Luther King. But I don't see it justifying casino hole-carders and card counters and what have you here. "Oh! those evil casinos and the people who work for them!!....." (Although I do feel that Ferris Beuller may be a somewhat righteous dude...)

So, by arguably committing theft-of-services by advocating breaking casino table games rules, - I simply do not see as a Robin Hood or God given right sort of thing to do, like so many here do.

And for wanna-be professional AP players to take the posture that casinos and gambling halls must or should offer games that are absolute liabilities to their business, ("95% penetration, wide limits, and NO heat") - or that casino businesses have no right to institute or enforce loss prevention practices to keep their businesses viable, is amazing to hear and see. And so as a pasttime, or career option, or anything like that.

And Boy, do I fit in badly at this forum, saying such things as "hole-carding/counting/playing stacked decks," etc. is against the house rules, and justifies back-offs, flat-betting, expulsion from premises, and in some cases, arrest" stuns members here as being inconceivable.

I tell you, when the majority of people here see my position as actually reasonable for the casino business, - or just tenable, I may get scared and have trouble sleeping.

Quote: Paigowdan

And Boy, do I fit in badly at this forum, saying such things as "hole-carding/counting/playing stacked decks," etc. is against the house rules,

The problem is, Dan, some of remember things like in the
70's, half the single deck BJ dealers were cheating. Switching
hole cards, dealing from the bottom of the deck to themselves.
Now you want us to believe the casinos are like reformed
hookers, white as snow and twice as self righteous. It was fine
that Vegas cheated customers blatantly for decades, but don't
you dare take advantage of us when you can.

Only Dan could compare counting to Genocide !

(such as in a nation's Genocide )

Quote: EvenBob

The problem is, Dan, some of remember things like in the
70's, half the single deck BJ dealers were cheating. Switching
hole cards, dealing from the bottom of the deck to themselves.
Now you want us to believe the casinos are like reformed
hookers, white as snow and twice as self righteous. It was fine
that Vegas cheated customers blatantly for decades, but don't
you dare take advantage of us when you can.

Huh? Now it's: "Well, y'know....I say that some dealers were cheating....back in the 1970's....so I say that that makes it good now for the players to try to cheat...now in 2012....it's PAYBACK...." Great argument.

Quote: buzzpaff

Only Dan could compare counting to Genocide !

Who's comparing card counting to genocide? Not me.

I said that breaking rules are a bit more justified when you are fighting AGAINST genocide...then when you are fighting against some businesses' reasonable loss prevention practices. Buzz, - now this is quite different.

I said that breaking rules are a bit more justified .

Then breaking rules is Ok ? Who draws that distinction, especially against unseen rules.

Quote: Paigowdan

. players to try to cheat...now in 2012....it's PAYBACK...." Great argument.

Not at all. AP's don't cheat. My point was, when the
casinos were blatantly cheating, that was fine and
dandy with them, screw the players. Now that they
can't cheat blatantly anymore, they're outraged
and indignant anybody would try and take advantage
of THEM. They're so hypocritical its hilarious. On
top of that, they want us to buy their hypocracy and
go along with it.

A kid who has enough money can buy a car,. Justin fuckin' Bieber could probably get credit card at 16. But KIDS can't gamble. Know why Dan? It's 'cause casinos are parasites.

It's not projecting; it's centuries of good judgment.

I'm not about outlawing them, far from it, but let's call a spade a spade. You're not on a high horse to project judgement, but on a sickly donkey standing in a pile of muck preaching by braying.

'm not about outlawing them, far from it, but let's call a spade a spade. You're not on a high horse to project judgement, but on a sickly donkey standing in a pile of muck preaching by braying.

Come on, stop sugar coating how you feel.

Quote: rxwine

A kid who has enough money can buy a car,. Justin fuckin' Bieber could probably get credit card at 16. But KIDS can't gamble. Know why Dan? It's 'cause casinos are parasites.

Argument #2: "kids can't gamble because casinos are parasites."

Quote: Paigowdan

"kids can't gamble because casinos are parasites."

I never thought of it that way before. Casinos are
absolutely ruthless in their desire to take your money.
A kid has no defense against that. Neither do most
adults.

=Warped Roulette, Card Counting or any other Advantage Play=

I am beginning to see just what is warped on this thread.

Paigowdan,

We finally agree.

The definition of Parasite: Parasitism is a type of non mutual relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the other, the host. ha ha ha.......ha ha ha ha

The AP's do benefit at the expense of the LARGER parasite, the Casino, your Parasitic Employer...ha ha ha ha ha ha

The next time I get a comped dinner for my AP, I will think of you and all the suits that work for that Huge Parasite........ha ha ha ha ha

Sincerely,

Little Parasite....A.K.A.: A.P. ha ha ha Cheers...ha ha ha ha

P.S. count is +12...ha ha ha ha ha

Quote: bigpete88

The AP's do benefit at the expense of the LARGER parasite, the Casino

Very good! I will for sure remember this, because
its the truth. Casinos prey on the uneducated and
the oblivious, and we prey on the casino. Of course
the big parasite hates the little parasite, the big
one wants it all for himself. Its natures food chain.

Perfect!

GaiPowDan's worst nightmare?



Three counts for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the land of casinos where the shadows lie.
One count to rule them all, One count to find them,
One count to bring them all and in the cash flow bind them
In the land of casinos where the shadows lie.


Someone that is able to flip through 6 decks of cards all the way down to the last 1/4 deck and then tell you exactly what those cards are prior to flipping them over, able to specify exactly how many {2-5} remain, exactly how many {6-9} remain, exactly how many {10} remain and exactly how many {A} remain along with specifying whether the {6-9} grouping is richer or poorer in 6,7's vs. 8,9's. You will never see them coming, never know what hit you and they will be nothing more than a fading memory shortly after they are gone... Can you imagine such a thing? Does it make your skin crawl?

Quote: IvanYerkanoff

GaiPowDan's worst nightmare?



Three counts for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the land of casinos where the shadows lie.
One count to rule them all, One count to find them,
One count to bring them all and in the cash flow bind them
In the land of casinos where the shadows lie.


Someone that is able to flip through 6 decks of cards all the way down to the last 1/4 deck and then tell you exactly what those cards are prior to flipping them over, able to specify exactly how many {2-5} remain, exactly how many {6-9} remain, exactly how many {10} remain and exactly how many {A} remain along with specifying whether the {6-9} grouping is richer or poorer in 6,7's vs. 8,9's. You will never see them coming, never know what hit you and they will be nothing more than a fading memory shortly after they are gone... Can you imagine such a thing? Does it make your skin crawl?

I and other dealers have no nightmares about AP players, - much in the same way that bus drivers and subway conductors aren't in fear of fare beaters. We just look down on it, for sure.

In modern life, the ability to flip through 6 deck of cards all the way down to the end of shoe will be immaterial soon enough. CSMs, I-tables, blackjack variants, and the like will close off this door. It'll become a life "game skill" about as useful as playing tiddlywinks, hopscotch or marbles.

AP players, card-counters, hole-carders, and the like are viewed as parasites to table game operations much in the same way as fare-beaters are viewed as parasites to transit operators. Loss prevention is a concern, and it is addressed, but it is neither at critical levels or unmanageable.

Quote: Paigowdan

I and other dealers have no nightmares about AP players,

Makes me think I should study EZ and see if
there's any AP angles. I already know one on
an EZ side bet, but you seldom see that bet.

Quote: EvenBob

Makes me think I should study EZ and see if
there's any AP angles. I already know one on
an EZ side bet, but you seldom see that bet.

Knock yourself out.
There really is no AP angle on any Pai Gow poker game aside from stacking the deck, although some try to see all the cards from other players and the dead hands, too. This seldom helps, and stands out like a sore thumb, causing misdeals if blatant.
And for the AP angle on the "EZ side bet," that one is for EZ Baccarat, not on EZ Pai Gow. The cards you're dealt either contain a straight flush, or they do not.
And your hand can be verified with the I-deal screen, to see if you had mucked the cards.

The day is coming where you will have to play clean - or go home.

Quote: Paigowdan

The day is coming where you will have to play clean - or go home.

Not in this century, Dan. I know theres a side bet I
can beat, I even asked you about it a long time ago.
You said hardly anybody offers it.

The day is pretty much here. And it's not a problem.

Paigowdan,

The day will come when you have offshore competition and competition from every state.

We play clean and legal. You just do not like it which is your opinion.

We play according to the laws in your state. Card counting is legal in every state. So is legal advantage play.

How did that lawsuit go for the Golden Nugget? Not so Golden, did it? You and your suits and your suits attorneys lost.

The Judge ruled in favor of the AP.

Quote: Paigowdan

I and other dealers have no nightmares about AP players, - much in the same way that bus drivers and subway conductors aren't in fear of fare beaters. We just look down on it, for sure.

In modern life, the ability to flip through 6 deck of cards all the way down to the end of shoe will be immaterial soon enough. CSMs, I-tables, blackjack variants, and the like will close off this door. It'll become a life "game skill" about as useful as playing tiddlywinks, hopscotch or marbles.

AP players, card-counters, hole-carders, and the like are viewed as parasites to table game operations much in the same way as fare-beaters are viewed as parasites to transit operators. Loss prevention is a concern, and it is addressed, but it is neither at critical levels or unmanageable.

A player such as this, urban legend folklore, is what keeps the dream of card-counting alive, wouldn't you say? Speculations on such a player could drive people insane with fear and paranoia that such a thing could exist if you are on the other side. It's as if you are so busy examing a piece of bark on a tree that you have never actually seen the tree, Dan. Nevermind the forest surrounding the tree... Let's get realistic. How many people do you even see at a blackjack table that even know basic strategy, much less anything about counting. The casinos are not going broke anytime soon, trust me. Saturation of the market with a casino on every corner will hurt individual casinos but a very few lucky or good players aren't going to hurt things.

Dan's simple answer? "We will stop them! We will install CSM's everyplace and stop them dead in their tracks!... BOTH of them even!!!! Sure but as soon as you do some ridiculous move like that every blackjack pit across the land is going to empty out, losing billions in overall action. Oh sure, you will still have a few stopping by to "pay the fee" but which is better? 2% off a huge volume or 10% of nothing? Do the math on this and get back to me.

Those two guys that you are willing to shoot yourself in the foot over by rendering blackjack completely unplayable across the board might not be the most financially prudent move. As it is, it's truly "the principle of the thing" when it comes to what the casinos are willing to do over fear and paranoia. They are willing to have it cost them $10 to prevent an AP from getting $1, plain and simple (based on fear and paranoia over potential theoretical loss). Don't believe me? Go read a book by Bill Zender, (who is firmly planted on your side of the tracks by the way) and maybe you will gain some enlightenment and be able to see beyond that tiny piece of bark. The rule of big numbers allows you to see some of the tree.

You imply with great fervor that you are seething with hatred for AP's, willing to do anything to stop them... even to the point of it severely crippling the gaming industry financially. Who is the real worst enemy of the casino's bottom line? Erroneous management decisions or a couple of individuals that might win a hand or two?

Ivan,
I don't have hatred for AP's. They're basically wasting their time, and the casino's time, and costing everyone money and hassles. And I know who Bill Zender is.
People will play all games, newer games, AND still play Blackjack.

Gambling is not going to disappear, while being a pro will be for the most part eliminated.

Dan when the AP days are over will you take pitty on me and help me develop my BJ side bet? :)

Quote: Paigowdan

Ivan,
I don't have hatred for AP's. They're basically wasting their time,

Dan, if they're wasting their time then they're fool's
and don't deserve a second thought. But you and
the casinos act like they're doing anything BUT
wasting their time. You take them extremely seriously
in the you spend $10 on loss prevention for every
dollar you lose. Don't you find that odd for people
wasting their time?

Yes. Would love to. The days are pretty much over.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes. Would love to. The days are pretty much over.

I beg to differ on the days being numbered, but I'm dead serious about soliciting your help on my side bet so don't mess with me on that one please.

Quote: Paigowdan

Ivan,
I don't have hatred for AP's. They're basically wasting their time, and the casino's time, and costing everyone money and hassles. And I know who Bill Zender is.
People will play all games, newer games, AND still play Blackjack.

Gambling is not going to disappear, while being a pro will be for the most part eliminated.

You know who Bill Zender is as in "Yes, I have heard of that guy before" or as in "Yes, I am aware of our differing views and of how we are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum in our individual viewpoints and assessments of casino operations and management."?

Quote: Paigowdan

Knock yourself out.
There really is no AP angle on any Pai Gow poker game aside from stacking the deck, although some try to see all the cards from other players and the dead hands, too. This seldom helps, and stands out like a sore thumb, causing misdeals if blatant.
And for the AP angle on the "EZ side bet," that one is for EZ Baccarat, not on EZ Pai Gow. The cards you're dealt either contain a straight flush, or they do not.
And your hand can be verified with the I-deal screen, to see if you had mucked the cards.

The day is coming where you will have to play clean - or go home.

Not totally true. When a 'dragon' hand was offerred, the dealer always flashed the bottom card. I would play it if it was an ace or joker or king. Probably gave me a teenie weenie advantage. There are MANY times I see 35 cards on a jovial table. At my minimum betting no one cares. Periodically I'll play two pairs "stupidly" if I know the dealer has no chance for an ace. Probably not enough to give me an advantage but will certainly cut into the house edge. I also sometimes adjust my play if the dealer is likely to have aces. And you forget the targetting of weak dealers, who if they make a mistake in your favor you can remain mute, but if they err against you it can be politely pointed out. But all of the above just add to the fun, no one will make a living playing any pai gow against a 5% commission, or against a push against a Q high pai gow table.

As far as your statement "The day is coming where tou will have to play clean - or go home.", I would doubt that. People will always be seeking new ways to beat the "evil casinos", and the casinos will close those holes, or try to, and new holes will ineveitably open up.

Quote: SOOPOO

Not totally true. When a 'dragon' hand was offerred, the dealer always flashed the bottom card. I would play it if it was an ace or joker or king. Probably gave me a teenie weenie advantage. There are MANY times I see 35 cards on a jovial table. At my minimum betting no one cares. Periodically I'll play two pairs "stupidly" if I know the dealer has no chance for an ace. Probably not enough to give me an advantage but will certainly cut into the house edge. I also sometimes adjust my play if the dealer is likely to have aces. And you forget the targetting of weak dealers, who if they make a mistake in your favor you can remain mute, but if they err against you it can be politely pointed out. But all of the above just add to the fun, no one will make a living playing any pai gow against a 5% commission, or against a push against a Q high pai gow table.

As far as your statement "The day is coming where tou will have to play clean - or go home.", I would doubt that. People will always be seeking new ways to beat the "evil casinos", and the casinos will close those holes, or try to, and new holes will ineveitably open up.

Casinos are not as dumb as advertised. They will always leave the door open for some Advantage Play,to encourage those who think they are. It's all about the bottom line. Without winners, you can not appeal to losers.

Quote: SOOPOO

Not totally true. When a 'dragon' hand was offerred, the dealer always flashed the bottom card. I would play it if it was an ace or joker or king. Probably gave me a teenie weenie advantage. There are MANY times I see 35 cards on a jovial table. At my minimum betting no one cares. Periodically I'll play two pairs "stupidly" if I know the dealer has no chance for an ace. Probably not enough to give me an advantage but will certainly cut into the house edge. I also sometimes adjust my play if the dealer is likely to have aces. And you forget the targetting of weak dealers, who if they make a mistake in your favor you can remain mute, but if they err against you it can be politely pointed out. But all of the above just add to the fun, no one will make a living playing any pai gow against a 5% commission, or against a push against a Q high pai gow table.

As far as your statement "The day is coming where tou will have to play clean - or go home.", I would doubt that. People will always be seeking new ways to beat the "evil casinos", and the casinos will close those holes, or try to, and new holes will ineveitably open up.

Yes, totally true.
The days of mooching money from gaming businesses as a career are pretty much over. I remember when the New York City transit authority switched to electronic metrocards to address pilferage and theft of services. The same advances are coming to table games
One cannot make a living or a profit from peeking the bottom card of dragon hands in Pai Gow, and is more likely to cause a tap on the shoulder and the comment: "Sir, Really now?" You do not want to be on a date when this happens.

Indeed, we advise casino customers to eliminate both banking and dragon hands as outdated, cumbersome and unnecessary gimmicks of the game, and as a "shot-taking" risk. The most successful customers of EZ Pai Gow have happily eliminated both banking and dragon hand usage on a "best practices" basis.

I do not consider hole-carding dragon hands in Pai Gow Poker as "AP," I consider it embarassingly hard-up or chintzy; this kind of behavior is WAY beneath people. I have on live games called people on such amateurish hole-carding by saying, "- Sir, are you REALLY that hard up??" Never had a problem with the floor supervisors, as the dealer is supposed to flag and stop such behavior, as do the floor supervisors. Shaming someone who deserves it is a good teacher, and Stopping hole-carding IS customer service.

Deliberately Targeting and taking shots at break-in dealers can jeopordize someone's apprenticeship, and is about as low-life and utterly classless as it gets. If you see a dealer who has a weakness, it is better to politely point it out than to try to make an dirty buck off of it.

Just when I thought I was having a good day, I find myself agreeing with Dan.

" Deliberately Targeting and taking shots at break-in dealers can jeopordize someone's apprenticeship, and is about as low-life and utterly classless as it gets. If you see a dealer who has a weakness, it is better to politely point it out than to try to make an dirty buck off of it."

Paigowdan,

" Deliberately Targeting and taking shots at break-in dealers can jeopordize someone's apprenticeship, and is about as low-life and utterly classless as it gets. If you see a dealer who has a weakness, it is better to politely point it out than to try to make an dirty buck off of it."

Does this apprentice dealer, or experienced dealer, tell an inept player to hit a 12 against a dealers King in blackjack? Do Casinos make a "dirty buck"?

Your lopsided way of looking at things will get called on

Quote: bigpete88

Paigowdan,

" Deliberately Targeting and taking shots at break-in dealers can jeopordize someone's apprenticeship, and is about as low-life and utterly classless as it gets. If you see a dealer who has a weakness, it is better to politely point it out than to try to make an dirty buck off of it."

Does this apprentice dealer, or experienced dealer, tell an inept player to hit a 12 against a dealers King in blackjack? Do Casinos make a "dirty buck"?

Dealers do not play the players hands; players may hit or stand on their hands as they see fit.

Quote: bigpete88

Your lopsided way of looking at things will get called on

Fine. Call it. I stand by what I say: Deliberately Targeting and taking shots at break-in dealers can jeopordize someone's apprenticeship, and is about as low-life and utterly classless as it gets. If you see a dealer who has a weakness, it is better to politely point it out than to try to make an dirty buck off of it.

The dealer plays his hand as he or she see fit too.

Quote: bigpete88

The dealer plays his hand as he or she see fit too.

No.
1. Dealer hits until hard 17 in Blackjack.
2. Dealer uses the "house way" in Pai Gow Poker.
3. Dealer uses the official drawing rules in Baccarat.
In many games (Roulette and dice), the dealer does not even play a hand.

I meant sloppy as in the ability to hole card or other AP that us parasites use to suck blood ($$) from the bigger parasite (Casino).

I do appreciate the $$ though

If you really feel that going to a casino is feeding a parasite, then you're spending your time and money foolishly.
If you go for recreation and action, then you have a point.

I go to the casino for any reason that I want.

Quote: Paigowdan

If you really feel that going to a casino is feeding a parasite, then you're spending your time and money foolishly.
If you go for recreation and action, then you have a point.

I certainly go for recreation, but you lost me when you posted a while back something along the lines of that if a 3CP dealer accidentally flashed a king we were still morally obligated to play a queen-high if we would normally do so. I'm not going to even TRY to see the bottom card, but if I do I'm decidedly going to factor that into my decision.

Quote: FarFromVegas

I certainly go for recreation, but you lost me when you posted a while back something along the lines of that if a 3CP dealer accidentally flashed a king we were still morally obligated to play a queen-high if we would normally do so. I'm not going to even TRY to see the bottom card, but if I do I'm decidedly going to factor that into my decision.

If a dealer inadvertently flashes a card through no part of the player, that's one thing, and it isn't a capital offense in that case; it's an error. I consider it a misdeal, that such an event was not meant or intended to happen, and I fold the hand, and I tell the dealer. If the game isn't dealt or played as intended, then something IS wrong, and people use their own judgement in these cases, which is very often bad judgement. It's similar to being given change for a $20 when you paid with a $10 at a drive-thru window. You can say nothing and keep it, or you can mention it and return it. The earth isn't going to be knocked off its axis from either response. I say something and return the overpayment, and I play as if I had not seen the hole-card, THEN tell the dealer what the card in his hand is. I also do NOT seek out such dealers, or text people to "come on down to the gravy train..."

If I am in a car with someone at a drive-thru who takes wrong change, I notice it, and make a mental note that person 'x' is a bit of a low-life, a petty thief of sorts.

There is a big difference between a dealer who flashes, and a person who hole-cards, the difference being that the hole-carder takes deliberate action to see the hole card, but if someone is flashed a dealer's card through no player action at all, it's a flashed hole card.

I wonder what would happen if you asked the dealer to call the pit boss over, and explained that you had seen a King as the bottom card ? Dan, feel free to answer !!!

Sure.
It is enough to tell the dealer alone, and I do mention it. People learn from their mistakes and improve. The pit boss would be annoyed with the dealer.
If it warrants the pit boss' attention, I tell the pit boss. If it doesn't, then I don't.

Quote: Paigowdan

If a dealer inadvertently flashes a card through no part of the player, that's one thing, and it isn't a capital offense in that case; it's an error. I consider it a misdeal, that such an event was not meant or intended to happen, and I fold the hand, and I tell the dealer. If the game isn't dealt or played as intended, then something IS wrong, and people use their own judgement in these cases, which is very often bad judgement. It's similar to being given change for a $20 when you paid with a $10 at a drive-thru window. You can say nothing and keep it, or you can mention it and return it. The earth isn't going to be knocked off its axis from either response. I say something and return the overpayment, and I play as if I had not seen the hole-card, THEN tell the dealer what the card in his hand is. I also do NOT seek out such dealers, or text people to "come on down to the gravy train..."

If I am in a car with someone at a drive-thru who takes wrong change, I notice it, and make a mental note that person 'x' is a bit of a low-life, a petty thief of sorts.

There is a big difference between a dealer who flashes, and a person who hole-cards, the difference being that the hole-carder takes deliberate action to see the hole card, but if someone is flashed a dealer's card through no player action at all, it's a flashed hole card.

I've gone back to stores days later to pay for merchandise they've forgotten to charge me for. But if I see a king, I am not going to play my queen as if I hadn't seen it! I'm not talking a sloppy dealer--I'm talking a single, isolated event.

For the record, I have never seen a flashed hole card. And a dealer intentionally flashed the first card at LIR once to try to help me when I was letting it ride on a draw, but I wasn't going to pull the bet back anyway. (Yes, I tip. :D )

Quote: Paigowdan

If a dealer inadvertently flashes a card through no part of the player, that's one thing, and it isn't a capital offense in that case; it's an error. I consider it a misdeal, that such an event was not meant or intended to happen, and I fold the hand, and I tell the dealer.

Seriously, is this guy for real? Fold the hand due to a sloppy dealer?

Paigowdan- you are my favorite poster.....absolutely hilarious!