Mathematically speaking, should a dealer prefer to keep a tip or bet it, if given the option?

As a dealer, I'm frequently asked if I prefer to take a tip or bet it. Our policy is to ask to take it, and it's a personal preference of mine to keep the personal "gambling" to a minimum while I'm at work. Is it smart to do this? Is it dependent on the bet? On one hand, it seems entirely logical to just accept the tip, as it is facing a -EV situation where my expected value is less than the $1 of the tip itself. Obviously this excludes bets such as a banker bet in baccarat sans-commission or a play-only bet in TCP. On the other hand, can I really see this $1 as having been mine to begin with? The investment is all on the tipper, not me. Is this in a way like utilizing a voucher in a casino that forces you to bet that amount, while allowing you to keep the winnings?

Sorry if this topic has been covered. I'm just curious, as a dealer looking to maximize the expected value of my tips wherever possible.

Yes, it's fine either way. Mathematically, there is a house edge on the betted toke, reduced by not vig being applied to a toke win (Pai Gow tokes have no commission, 4 & 10, etc.)
If given the option, I bet it. Players may appreciate you being in the action with them.
I do not worry about the HE on a toke, I appreciate them all.

I prefer a dealer bets it.

I'm pretty confident I would tip less if I simply gave the dealer the tip. How much less, I don't know, but even $1 less an hour ends up being more than the HE on any game/bet I place for the dealer.


If I've been on a table for a while and getting along well with the dealer, I may throw them some and then bet a little. Say I want to tip $5, I may throw them 3 and then bet 2 on the next hand. I will generally never ask if they want to bet it because I know in some casinos they aren't even allowed to say bet it and their rules say they need to take it.


I like it when the dealer is involved in the table and when they have a bet out there for themselves, it just adds to the experience in my opinion.

Mathematically?

In most cases, take it. But as you and Dan mention, bet it on +EV no commission Bacc & Pai Gow tokes, etc, and in particular, the place bets on Craps in AC.



However...

I'm not a dealer, but if I were, and I got asked that question, I would tell the player to bet it. To do otherwise, would be like a waitress responding to "What do you recommend," by saying, "I don't eat here." That being the case, it shocks me to learn that many casinos require the dealers to take it when asked, rather than play it on a -EV game.

Quote: Funbox

Our policy is to ask to take it...

Don't you mean "Our policy is when asked, to take it..."

From a pure mathematical standpoint, it doesn't matter that the investment is all on the tipper, if the alternative is giving it to you straight up. I mean, let's consider the extreme: a grateful stranger for whatever reason offers you 500 dollars or 500 Keno tickets - which do you take?

From a practical standpoint, though, my guess would be, like DJTeddyBear says, you'll be seen as friendlier if you have the players bet your tips, and that except at the real sucker games this will well outweigh your loss to the edge.

I would say that if the tips are pooled, you probably owe it to your fellow dealers to make the best EV move at all times. I suppose an exception to this would be if you think that the player will toke less if you do not bet it, because then YOUR best EV is just to get the player toking as many chips as possible, even at a -EV house game bet.

If you keep your own, then the concept is almost the same, but I think it will vary with what you're comfortable with. Depending on how tips are going for you that day/week, whatever, you might even decide you want to take a shot at four the hard way (if you deal Craps, for example) if you're either way up (against the usual) or way down on tips because the buck just doesn't matter all that much. I also think the casino would like you to throw down on the HW on Craps because it might also encourage other players at the table to do so.

It's up to you, ultimately. This has been mentioned, but I tend to do the same thing playing Roulette if I want to tip $5, I usually hand the dealer $3 and then take two corners of Black-29 at $1/apiece. The last time I did this resulted in a bit of a discussion because the dealer was on me that I had to bet $5 up top, I explained this is not so on a toke bet, she asked the floor, I was right. I thought about just pulling the toke bet because I was slightly annoyed that she wouldn't take my word on knowing WTF I'm talking about on toke bets, but, ah, honest mistake.

In BJ or Craps, I tend to tip $5 on BJ and play a $5 dealer hand. In Craps, I'll often tip $5 on direct and then spread $5 over some Prop Bets. It's the only time I really get to play one-roll bets, except I play the Field sometimes!

On a game like BJ though, wouldn't your decision to play it or not depend on the players skill too? I mean, if he's not even playing BS wouldn't you then want to just pocket and not take a chance?

Quote: Mission146

I would say that if the tips are pooled, you probably owe it to your fellow dealers to make the best EV move at all times. I suppose an exception to this would be if you think that the player will toke less if you do not bet it, because then YOUR best EV is just to get the player toking as many chips as possible, even at a -EV house game bet.

The greatest consideration should be given to the tipping player's wishes, which will produce the very best EV for the dealer.

Quote: Texasplumr

On a game like BJ though, wouldn't your decision to play it or not depend on the players skill too? I mean, if he's not even playing BS wouldn't you then want to just pocket and not take a chance?

That is a factor, true, but so is coming off as if you were implying: "Listen, Jack, I think you're a lousy player, so I'm just going to lock this one up. Thanks." The dealer never wants to do anything off-putting to the generous player.

Again, the greatest consideration should be given to the tipping player, which will produce the very best EV for the dealer.

I tend to be an over the top tipper, when the craps tables are running good. BUT, I am tipping to get the dealers pulling for table numbers too, not to just give them money. If I win, they win. If I lose, they lose too.

Here's a question:

Let's say that I wanted to tip whilst playing a BJ hand, but I literally wanted to play my bet against the dealers tip, just for (you know what) and giggles, could I play a hand for myself as well as a tip hand with the stipulation that the tip hand played for the dealer is the House's hand as opposed to mine?

Quote: Funbox

I'm just curious, as a dealer looking to maximize the expected value of my tips wherever possible.

What's the EV on tips you don't get because you don't have a job because of violating company policy? That's how I'd look at it. Where I work we're supposed to take the tip if given the choice between playing it or taking it and I explain that to the players whenever I'm asked. I also add that if they'd like to see it played that they can certainly make that call and I appreciate it either way. but there's no way I'm going to jeopardize my job over a toke.

I'm pretty sure the policy to take the tip when offered has something to do with reducing possible collusion, which, at least where I work, is a matter taken very seriously.

In most cases, the move that has the highest EV is accepting the tip directly.

Casinos offering pai gow tiles usually pay even money on winning tip bets. In this case, the value of a $1 tip bet is 99.8¢ (when the dealer is banking and the player is playing correctly).

If winning tip bets on the banker bet in baccarat pay even money as well, then a $1 tip bet on the banker is worth $1.01.

Quote: JB

In most cases, the move that has the highest EV is accepting the tip directly.

Casinos offering pai gow tiles usually pay even money on winning tip bets. In this case, the value of a $1 tip bet is 99.8¢ (when the dealer is banking and the player is playing correctly).

If winning tip bets on the banker bet in baccarat pay even money as well, then a $1 tip bet on the banker is worth $1.01.

If you are betting for the dealer in craps, and a $1 bet on the 5,6,8, or 9 pays 2:1 (and at a lot of places, it does), it is more advantageous for the dealer to bet the tip rather than accept it.

Quote: teddys

If you are betting for the dealer in craps, and a $1 bet on the 5,6,8, or 9 pays 2:1 (and at a lot of places, it does), it is more advantageous for the dealer to bet the tip rather than accept it.

How have you managed to talk them into paying 2:1 on the 6/8? I will play $6 or $12 across, player control, for the dealers.
The best I have been able to do is talk the box into paying 2:1 on the 5/9, and I will press the number $1. So $1 bet. becomes $2 and $1 in box. Next hit, they will pay $3, $1 press, $2 in box.
But the 6/8 they have ever only been willing to pay 1:1.

I did talk one box into letting me make a dealer bet on my odds, that took me over the table odds limit. If I remember correctly, I had $30 odds on a $10 4, and the box let me put $5 on top for the dealers. It hit! :-)

Quote: RaleighCraps

How have you managed to talk them into paying 2:1 on the 6/8?

It's not a matter of "talking them into it." At least not in NJ.

As I reported in this thread, I learned about this from a dealer at Revel on opening day.