Slotenthusiast
Slotenthusiast
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March 11th, 2024 at 6:12:29 PM permalink
Mods: If the title is deemed to be inappropriate please change. Also if I put this thread in the wrong section please feel free to move.

I read an article the other day on a casino industry site I canít find the link about how casinos are losing money to advantage players by way of multi-carding.

I know this wonít be a popular thread because some of you multicard but I feel this group of people have ruined or will end up ruining ALL AP as we know it on the Las Vegas Strip, not just multicarding. Living in Las Vegas itís gotten progressively worse as the years have gone by.

That said, anyone who does AP on the Las Vegas Strip knows that the Asian Syndicates have long taken over. They run multiple player cards, and camp machines without abandon. They have limitless bankrolls because they operate as a team and use hundreds of people to multicard and camp machines. They text on their phones before, during and after the play with updates likely to the person who bankrolls them. They often use the comps from playing to live in the hotels basically risk free. In my opinion these people are a small part of the reason comps have been by and large destroyed in Las Vegas compared to years past, They camp behind people while they play essentially constantly loitering on the floor. There are teams positioned in every casino, and they rarely leave their post. They take plays way early because theyíve figured out that the comp advantage erases any negative ROI. I also wouldnít be surprised that an element of organized crime is involved since they are ruthless in the way they operate.

Hereís the question and the problem I have. Why does the casino allow these groups to continue doing this? Surely the amount of rooms, free play and other comps they are using exceed the revenue the casino is bringing in. Also if they are engaged in organized crime thatís another thing casinos would want nothing to do with. The problem is, because these groups arenít mobile they will eventually get flagged checking machines and everyone else who does this will get flagged as well. Normal APís are constantly moving not just staying put in one location.

Also for those who think this post isnít PC just know maybe
10 percent of the time Iíve seen a non Asian camping behind others on the strip. These groups also are 100 percent Asian.

Again Iím sorry for outing multicarders, but I feel if there is any group of people that will make multi carding and advantage play a thing of the past are these syndicates.
Last edited by: Slotenthusiast on Mar 11, 2024
noxor
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March 11th, 2024 at 11:42:10 PM permalink
there's an off strip casino i frequent and the one person i always see who is taking a photo before and after a play is an Asian man, i always thought it was for his personal log but proof of the play for a team makes a lot more sense than just keeping a personal log.
AZDuffman
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March 12th, 2024 at 4:30:56 AM permalink
Its this way. X coin in means Y in revenue. There is not a thing illegal about camping at a slot, feeding it, and playing it until you or it drop. Comps are set such that they do not cost more than the profit of the slot. That is, if it has all been set up correctly.

Now, one can say, "but they are not letting anyone else play those slots." I can promise you the general attitude of management is "who cares." The coins are coming in, that is what matters. Trust me, I have seen the same in other industries. Salesmen stealing leads from other salesmen. Dubious work sold to people. It just ends up being the dollars.

Here is the other thing. Vegas is not about what it once was. It has clearly decided that the well-heeled Asian traveler is more profitable than the guy who manages the Cinnabon out in Omaha. Everything new seems to be about that market. Well, that and conventions.

Can a guy still work a "route" out in Vegas, catching enough free play and other comps to make $100 a day like back in the 90s?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
darkoz
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March 12th, 2024 at 6:30:44 AM permalink
Well, I am sure everyone expects me to chime in here.

There is a lot of hard truth so get prepared.

First off, let's be clear. These are Chinese teams. I stress that because A)they are and B) other Asian AP"s get offended by being lumped in with them.

I had a few Filipino AP team members years ago who couldn't stand the Chinese syndicate actions and would vociferously correct anyone who grouped them in just because they were Asian.

I can't speak to organized crime involvement, I have no knowledge of that. Based on my personal experience they appear to be just willing to share AP secrets with their whole neighborhood. They do AP right in the open with no Care to getting caught.

I have seen someone checking up to fifty players cards at a single kiosk, even saw one printing out vouchers from one and didn't stop when an employee said he was breaking the rules. He just kept going until security arrived and hauled him off.

I have seen a few Chinese syndicates that know what they are doing and do it wisely. There's bad apples everywhere amongst the good.

When I first began multicarding everyone told me about the Chinese and I refused to consider such blatant racism. But unfortunately it's true. The Chinese have huge teams in multicarding as well as other slot AP and don't give a damn about burning out the locations. Their strategy is bombard and nuke.

AND it gets WORSE! I know for a fact they have insider help. I witnessed a team nuke a valuable multicarding play by using easily a thousand cards a day. I followed them around. I called them the 5555 team because they used the same pin.

And one day there was two different offers at the kiosk. It was one offer good until the following week. Another good only for the day. Without fail, they ONLY printed the daily offer. They left the ones good to next week.

I knew then what this team was doing. They were stealing other people's freeplay. They printed out the daily figuring the player's hadn't come in but left the weekly until the last day just in case the actual card holder came in and was looking for their offer during the week.

I knew that was trouble for my team and sure enough about Two months later the ball dropped. They arrested the employee and several of the multicarders. They rounded up two of my own people in the mess with accusations of stolen cards and pressing charges (they didn't because they discovered the cards were legit handed to us by the card users. They called and confirmed but those cards became toast for me. A big mess).

At another good but burned location they also had an insider who was printing large numbers of phoney cards. I also had an insider but it was just for information so I know what they got caught doing from the source. Printing out dozens of cards with fake addresses that didn't exist.

So yes they are a problem.

But itís just another aspect to survival in the multicarding game. They have made life hard. Welcome to AP! I try not to stress about it anymore. Trust me they aren't going anywhere. You're best bet is figuring out how to operate around them.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 12th, 2024 at 7:06:33 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz



When I first began multicarding everyone told me about the Chinese and I refused to consider such blatant racism.



This thought process is how they keep getting away with it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
darkoz
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March 12th, 2024 at 7:34:34 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz



When I first began multicarding everyone told me about the Chinese and I refused to consider such blatant racism.



This thought process is how they keep getting away with it.
link to original post



You are saying it's safer to be racist?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AZDuffman
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March 12th, 2024 at 7:37:13 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz



When I first began multicarding everyone told me about the Chinese and I refused to consider such blatant racism.



This thought process is how they keep getting away with it.
link to original post



You are saying it's safer to be racist?
link to original post



I am saying your definition of "racism" is far too broad. Just mentioning people are Chinese is not racist. Get over it and get on with your life.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Gialmere
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March 12th, 2024 at 7:58:29 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

It has clearly decided that the well-heeled Asian traveler is more profitable than the guy who manages the Cinnabon out in Omaha.
link to original post


I don't know. That Gene Takavic guy always seems to have plenty of cash stashed around.
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
darkoz
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March 12th, 2024 at 8:12:38 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz



When I first began multicarding everyone told me about the Chinese and I refused to consider such blatant racism.



This thought process is how they keep getting away with it.
link to original post



You are saying it's safer to be racist?
link to original post



I am saying your definition of "racism" is far too broad. Just mentioning people are Chinese is not racist. Get over it and get on with your life.
link to original post



I never said that just mentioning people are Chinese is racist.

I said making accusations that AP's specifically ruining AP are Chinese is racist.

Even admitting that my discovery was it's true, it still is racist. In the same vein that calling a fat person fat is still insulting them regardless of truth.

You are going to derail this thread with your outlandish outlook on being allowed to make racist statements. Let's move on and discuss AP multicarding from the Chinese teams only.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Slotenthusiast
Slotenthusiast
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March 12th, 2024 at 8:25:17 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Its this way. X coin in means Y in revenue. There is not a thing illegal about camping at a slot, feeding it, and playing it until you or it drop. Comps are set such that they do not cost more than the profit of the slot. That is, if it has all been set up correctly.

Now, one can say, "but they are not letting anyone else play those slots." I can promise you the general attitude of management is "who cares." The coins are coming in, that is what matters. Trust me, I have seen the same in other industries. Salesmen stealing leads from other salesmen. Dubious work sold to people. It just ends up being the dollars.

Here is the other thing. Vegas is not about what it once was. It has clearly decided that the well-heeled Asian traveler is more profitable than the guy who manages the Cinnabon out in Omaha. Everything new seems to be about that market. Well, that and conventions.

Can a guy still work a "route" out in Vegas, catching enough free play and other comps to make $100 a day like back in the 90s?
link to original post



These people arenít ďwell heeled, Asian travelersĒ they have no money of their own, and are likely bankrolled and used by whoever runs the operation. They do affect the casinos bottom line as they are taking more from the casino than they put in. They are also stalking the normal casino poppies, which is another issue altogether.
Slotenthusiast
Slotenthusiast
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NDnathan
March 12th, 2024 at 8:31:06 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Well, I am sure everyone expects me to chime in here.

There is a lot of hard truth so get prepared.

First off, let's be clear. These are Chinese teams. I stress that because A)they are and B) other Asian AP"s get offended by being lumped in with them.

I had a few Filipino AP team members years ago who couldn't stand the Chinese syndicate actions and would vociferously correct anyone who grouped them in just because they were Asian.

I can't speak to organized crime involvement, I have no knowledge of that. Based on my personal experience they appear to be just willing to share AP secrets with their whole neighborhood. They do AP right in the open with no Care to getting caught.

I have seen someone checking up to fifty players cards at a single kiosk, even saw one printing out vouchers from one and didn't stop when an employee said he was breaking the rules. He just kept going until security arrived and hauled him off.

I have seen a few Chinese syndicates that know what they are doing and do it wisely. There's bad apples everywhere amongst the good.

When I first began multicarding everyone told me about the Chinese and I refused to consider such blatant racism. But unfortunately it's true. The Chinese have huge teams in multicarding as well as other slot AP and don't give a damn about burning out the locations. Their strategy is bombard and nuke.

AND it gets WORSE! I know for a fact they have insider help. I witnessed a team nuke a valuable multicarding play by using easily a thousand cards a day. I followed them around. I called them the 5555 team because they used the same pin.

And one day there was two different offers at the kiosk. It was one offer good until the following week. Another good only for the day. Without fail, they ONLY printed the daily offer. They left the ones good to next week.

I knew then what this team was doing. They were stealing other people's freeplay. They printed out the daily figuring the player's hadn't come in but left the weekly until the last day just in case the actual card holder came in and was looking for their offer during the week.

I knew that was trouble for my team and sure enough about Two months later the ball dropped. They arrested the employee and several of the multicarders. They rounded up two of my own people in the mess with accusations of stolen cards and pressing charges (they didn't because they discovered the cards were legit handed to us by the card users. They called and confirmed but those cards became toast for me. A big mess).

At another good but burned location they also had an insider who was printing large numbers of phoney cards. I also had an insider but it was just for information so I know what they got caught doing from the source. Printing out dozens of cards with fake addresses that didn't exist.

So yes they are a problem.

But itís just another aspect to survival in the multicarding game. They have made life hard. Welcome to AP! I try not to stress about it anymore. Trust me they aren't going anywhere. You're best bet is figuring out how to operate around them.
link to original post



Glad you chimed in. As for the illegal aspect, I suspect human trafficking might be involved. There are so many of these people all coordinated, and the coordination so good that it seems almost impossible for there not to be some kind of criminal element. They operate at all hours. You will see teams of them on the strip covering literally every waking hour at every major casino. The only place haven't see them is resorts world.

Remember the Asian massage parlor busts? I bet these are the same people running this operation. They were also busted for EBT scams a few years ago charging $100 for a back of rice or whatever in their stores and giving the person half value in cash.

Speculation: Money Laundering their massage parlor money through the casinos, and getting comps/rooms for their ďworkersĒ in the process.
Last edited by: Slotenthusiast on Mar 12, 2024
Mental
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MukkeMathodds123
March 12th, 2024 at 8:38:48 AM permalink
My have more experience with dealing with people vulturing +EV slot play than multicarding. That said, I have had only one bad incident with a Chinese team. I have had probably 10 bad interactions with people of other ethnicities. I really hate the white frat boys who try to tell me I am playing at -EV, implying I should stop chasing and leave the machine. I must not look as stupid to the Chinese teams, because they never try that BS on me.

On my rare visits to Las Vegas, I feel that the vultures are more diverse than in some other gambling locales. My quick impression of the LV hustlers is that they are better behaved than some other places, but they are very numerous. I counted 20 people checking the same Regal Riches within 30 minutes in a strip casino.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
AZDuffman
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March 12th, 2024 at 8:40:34 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: darkoz



When I first began multicarding everyone told me about the Chinese and I refused to consider such blatant racism.



This thought process is how they keep getting away with it.
link to original post



You are saying it's safer to be racist?
link to original post



I am saying your definition of "racism" is far too broad. Just mentioning people are Chinese is not racist. Get over it and get on with your life.
link to original post



I never said that just mentioning people are Chinese is racist.

I said making accusations that AP's specifically ruining AP are Chinese is racist.

Even admitting that my discovery was it's true, it still is racist. In the same vein that calling a fat person fat is still insulting them regardless of truth.

You are going to derail this thread with your outlandish outlook on being allowed to make racist statements. Let's move on and discuss AP multicarding from the Chinese teams only.
link to original post



Calling a Chinese person Chinese is not racist. Move on, indeed.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 12th, 2024 at 8:41:11 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

Quote: AZDuffman

It has clearly decided that the well-heeled Asian traveler is more profitable than the guy who manages the Cinnabon out in Omaha.
link to original post


I don't know. That Gene Takavic guy always seems to have plenty of cash stashed around.
link to original post



Yeah, but his wife was a Karen.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
terapined
terapined
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March 12th, 2024 at 8:45:35 AM permalink
I wonder if these are Cantonese or Mandarin or Taiwanese
Big difference in culture and language
Although gambling is big among the Asians
No real gamblers in my extended family
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
Slotenthusiast
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March 12th, 2024 at 8:59:57 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

I wonder if these are Cantonese or Mandarin or Taiwanese
Big difference in culture and language
Although gambling is big among the Asians
No real gamblers in my extended family
link to original post



I would guess mostly Chinese but Iím not an expert on Asian nationalities.
darkoz
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March 12th, 2024 at 9:07:58 AM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: terapined

I wonder if these are Cantonese or Mandarin or Taiwanese
Big difference in culture and language
Although gambling is big among the Asians
No real gamblers in my extended family
link to original post



I would guess mostly Chinese but Iím not an expert on Asian nationalities.
link to original post



Cantonese, Mandarin, Hunan are all Chinese. They are different provinces.

Kind of like Southerner, Northerners, Westerner in the US identifies an American by dialect and cuisine and other choices.

Taiwan is a bit more complicated. As I understand it Taiwan is a separate semi-country fighting to be apart from China. Like if Puerto Rico suddenly wanted their independence.

I am not an expert in this either but this is my understanding of the differences.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Slotenthusiast
Slotenthusiast
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March 12th, 2024 at 9:11:27 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: terapined

I wonder if these are Cantonese or Mandarin or Taiwanese
Big difference in culture and language
Although gambling is big among the Asians
No real gamblers in my extended family
link to original post



I would guess mostly Chinese but Iím not an expert on Asian nationalities.
link to original post



Cantonese, Mandarin, Hunan are all Chinese. They are different provinces.

Kind of like Southerner, Northerners, Westerner in the US identifies an American by dialect and cuisine and other choices.

Taiwan is a bit more complicated. As I understand it Taiwan is a separate semi-country fighting to be apart from China. Like if Puerto Rico suddenly wanted their independence.

I am not an expert in this either but this is my understanding of the differences.
link to original post



Makes sense lol.
AZDuffman
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March 12th, 2024 at 9:27:00 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz



Taiwan is a bit more complicated. As I understand it Taiwan is a separate semi-country fighting to be apart from China. Like if Puerto Rico suddenly wanted their independence.

I am not an expert in this either but this is my understanding of the differences.
link to original post



Taiwan is China. It is the government in exile until the communist regime in the mainland is deposed.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
OKAY
OKAY
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March 12th, 2024 at 10:52:09 AM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: terapined

I wonder if these are Cantonese or Mandarin or Taiwanese
Big difference in culture and language
Although gambling is big among the Asians
No real gamblers in my extended family
link to original post



I would guess mostly Chinese but Iím not an expert on Asian nationalities.
link to original post



Cantonese, Mandarin, Hunan are all Chinese. They are different provinces.

Kind of like Southerner, Northerners, Westerner in the US identifies an American by dialect and cuisine and other choices.

Taiwan is a bit more complicated. As I understand it Taiwan is a separate semi-country fighting to be apart from China. Like if Puerto Rico suddenly wanted their independence.

I am not an expert in this either but this is my understanding of the differences.
link to original post



Makes sense lol.
link to original post


It's Cantonese!!!
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxYEYIUyjiTZwEVimIfFnHefnIlDxWtf7x?si=eNe8jOsZFhqz4uRI
ChallengedMilly
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March 17th, 2024 at 1:40:34 PM permalink
My only guess is that casinos believe they're generating more money from these teams than they're losing from their bad behavior in the casino, or potential lawsuits for trying to organize a way to kick them all out. Casinos have understood that AP is a thing for decades, same thing with the blackjack teams that sometimes pop up around the world and go on a spree of generating money. The blackjack teams are smaller and are more easily controlled.

From a humanitarian/compassion perspective, any patrons that clearly have an "addiction" should be banned, and with the amount of time these people spend in the casinos sometimes up to 20+ hours a day in rotations, the casino would legally and morally be within their right to start banning them one by one.
TheCapitalShip
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March 17th, 2024 at 1:53:39 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

My have more experience with dealing with people vulturing +EV slot play than multicarding. That said, I have had only one bad incident with a Chinese team. I have had probably 10 bad interactions with people of other ethnicities. I really hate the white frat boys who try to tell me I am playing at -EV, implying I should stop chasing and leave the machine. I must not look as stupid to the Chinese teams, because they never try that BS on me.



The white frat boys are the ones that actually take stuff at -EV. My favorite is the ones that try to be friendly with you, buttering you up because you're in on a play, not because you know, they want to be nice decent people. No, they want to try and convince you to leave the machine, or even better stand 0.1 inches behind you hoping you'll get off. And then as soon as you complete the play they just drop you like flies as if you never existed.

I deal with a lot more campers at mine though, probably my least favorite type of vulture to deal with, honestly the multi-carding teams aren't that bad where I'm at, I've heard it different in Vegas, but I only have experience at my locals.
mcallister3200
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March 17th, 2024 at 4:19:12 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: terapined

I wonder if these are Cantonese or Mandarin or Taiwanese
Big difference in culture and language
Although gambling is big among the Asians
No real gamblers in my extended family
link to original post



I would guess mostly Chinese but Iím not an expert on Asian nationalities.
link to original post



Cantonese, Mandarin, Hunan are all Chinese. They are different provinces.

Kind of like Southerner, Northerners, Westerner in the US identifies an American by dialect and cuisine and other choices.

Taiwan is a bit more complicated. As I understand it Taiwan is a separate semi-country fighting to be apart from China. Like if Puerto Rico suddenly wanted their independence.

I am not an expert in this either but this is my understanding of the differences.
link to original post



Regarding the Puerto Rico part, trust me nobody not receiving government assistance there wants to be a territory. Itís split between wanting independence and statehood. Itís not far from half that want independence.
Roberto21
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March 19th, 2024 at 1:00:59 AM permalink
I guess casinos could also be betting on the chance that players will give up some of their ev on negative ev plays, if there are no plays due to an over saturated market. Not everyone has the patience or the willpower to walk around casinos all day checking for plays and not playing anything if they find none. Also, itís possibly more of a money laundering thing like others have suggested.
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