Has Vulturing gone the way of the dodo
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20 members have voted
There was a lot more meat left on the bone a decade ago.
People are now taking plays below breakeven like a 85% Regal below 60 and hoping to get lucky!
At one casino, a guy is there 24x7. he sleeps in his car when it's warm. during winter, he sleeps at machine locations without much foot traffic.
The problem with running cards is that you're going to run out of friends to get new cards from
Quote: 100xOddsYup, lots more vultures near me.
People are now taking plays below breakeven like a 85% Regal below 60 and hoping to get lucky!
At one casino, a guy is there 24x7. he sleeps in his car when it's warm. during winter, he sleeps at machine locations without much foot traffic.
The problem with running cards is that you're going to run out of friends to get new cards from
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You can always round up a few patsies at any AA meeting.
Quote: McSweeneyThere is yet to be a truly big expose, for example there has not yet been some huge, obnoxious YouTuber with tens of millions of subscribers come out and say HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT I FOUND OUT! I'M GONNA TEACH YOU EXACTLY HOW TO MAKE MONEY OFF SLOT MACHINES AND WHICH GAMES TO LOOK FOR! And that video go viral and get 20 million views. I'm actually shocked it hasn't happened yet when you consider how desperate big YouTubers are for clicks.
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I think that's happening on the paid subscription side, if it is happening.
There are some very subtle cues from some creators that there is more going on, and those creators definitely have a paid-only collection of videos for their premium fans.
Why give the cow away when you can sell the milk?
For me, we've definitely been getting a lot more vultures where I'm at, on any given day I am at my local there's AT LEAST 10 people there. One person in particular literally lives at the casino, I'm not kidding, you would think for someone that takes stuff at 18$ a spin he'd have a house and a place to live instead of an old beat up truck.
It's still doable IMO, part of it is just adapting. If you are looking though to make 100k+ all to yourself though? Yea, lower your expectations, I'm happy with the money I make and so far I think I've done a good job adapting to how things have changed. It helps that a good 8/10 of these people are just gamblers and won't admit it, me and maybe 2 other people actually take decent stuff.
I will say though some places you will for sure have a harder time, for example, the casino an hour away from me has a bank of 4 machines, at all 4 machines, there is a team that each has a chair not even 3 feet behind them, and they will camp there ALL DAY long, if you are just walking around, 0% chance you will get any of those 4, they will do things like run ahead of you to get something, "accidently" shove you while they go sit down from the dude that didn't even get off a picosecond ago because he left something that is 0.01% positive and god forbid they don't get it before you do. And if you DO happen to get it they will complain loudly, try to intimidate you, try to bait you into getting into an argument so they can call security on you (I say this because I watched it happen). And that is just one group, some people will sacrifice EV/hr just to wait hours upon hours on end to wait for someone to get finished with one machine, the best part is they usually get left at a below even state, and because they HAVE to justify waiting that long for a "play" they take it anyway and mostly lose, but hey the one time they get lucky it was so worth it!
You also in this scene have a lot fakes, as in people that THINK they take good stuff but they don't, they just get lucky enough that they justify taking something they have no business in taking.
If you can't tell from that rant I do not like people doing that kind of stuff, it grinds my gears to say the least, if it ever gets like that where I'm at, I will probably move on to something else, no way im sitting in a chair 8 hours a day doing that kind of thing. There's plenty of more stuff to do.
So he just plays +ev slots?Quote: Roberto21He may hold the record for having the highest RTP in the slot community. He is arguably the most disciplined slot player on YouTube too. If anyone knows any other advantage slot channels on YouTube (that consistently upload) I would love to hear it!
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Does he says it's an AP slot or keeps quiet about that part?
Looks like many of the same games as SlotsofOpportunities.
They started running to 51 Regals at one point. Like WTF. It gets in your head, "Wait, do they know something I don't. Was there a machine update?" It's just a big merge together of unprofitable + profitable with no separation. 14 hours a day at the casino without the discipline to not gamble.
At many casinos in Atlantic City/region, there are teams who either camp all day or monitor all day. In the busiest casinos in AC, the teams have very well defined shifts and they keep 100% coverage even during the night.
Can you find plays? Sure. You will always be able to find some plays. They can not profitably have 100% coverage. It is simply a question of hourly EV.
What surprises me is that even in rural casinos that have a handful of weak AP games, there are regular groups of what seems like retired people who sit around all day and pick up occasional plays. I guess this is better than sitting in front of TV at home... but they are making peanuts.
Yup, at one of my casinos, a weekend AP got his parents (grandparents?) in the act.Quote: NYCAPWhat surprises me is that even in rural casinos that have a handful of weak AP games, there are regular groups of what seems like retired people who sit around all day and pick up occasional plays. I guess this is better than sitting in front of TV at home... but they are making peanuts.
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Then all of a sudden weeks later ALOT of old people are camping out at all the vulturable banks making +EV plays impossible.
Now you're taking it at slightly -EV for comps. :(
Bus hustling is the lowest IMHO.
Don't get me wrong. I did the bus hustling myself years ago. There are necessary starting points given someone isn't being trained and I have respect for both vultures and bus hustlers.
But on the totem pole they are low. Some of my workers who were trained by me and never did vulturing really despise them as below contempt and will do anything to avoid or hamper them including turning around mid-play to just stare at camped vultures behind them (which they have reported sometimes does work although it may be because if not playing the vultures have no reason to watch).
One of my workers wanted to report them to security but I absolutely put my foot down. Not only Don't I agree with ever reporting an AP to security (not for AP reasons, if they are acting violent or threatening that's different) but I had to ask my crew who would be more scrutinized in the end, a patron who sits all day behind players or a patron switching players cards with multiple names.
They got my point.
Anyway vulturing is certainly way too bottom feeder for me In my current position.
Quote: McSweeneyI think the only thing stopping vulturing from truly becoming oversaturated and dead is that it's STILL to this day a thing that spreads by word of mouth. There is yet to be a truly big expose, for example there has not yet been some huge, obnoxious YouTuber with tens of millions of subscribers come out and say HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT I FOUND OUT! I'M GONNA TEACH YOU EXACTLY HOW TO MAKE MONEY OFF SLOT MACHINES AND WHICH GAMES TO LOOK FOR! And that video go viral and get 20 million views. I'm actually shocked it hasn't happened yet when you consider how desperate big YouTubers are for clicks. This has happened with other money making schemes like dropshopping, which was extremely profitable back in the day until YouTubers came out with tutorials and oversaturated the market. Even something as simple as flipping houses is too hard now.
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AP’ing slots is a lot more involved than what any video or class could expose. I’d encourage a video like that, as it would just be more people going broke on plays for me to make money on. People underestimate the bankroll and discipline requirements to be a successful AP. I’ve been involved on multiple plays that would bankrupt 99 percent of the average gamblers out there.
In particular I worry about something like a Wikia being made with every slot machine ever made on it that people can just look up, and then people start writing guidelines on every game as to when it's +EV. That would be a disaster. I personally love it when a brand new slot machine comes out and there's zero information on the Internet as to when it's +EV because I can always form a hypothesis, test it out, tweak my guidelines, and then make a bunch of money off it months before people in the casino start figuring it out and then all the profit inevitably dries up.
@darkoz I added the vulturing is small potato's voting option for you (and those with similar methods to you).
@slotenthusiast I have mixed feelings, it seems like it could go one of two ways, either like you say, or...
@mcSweeny The problem is (and I've seen it with a very close friend (the only one I've shared my stuff with)) that bankroll management is very hard for most people, as is going on tilt. I suppose BR management would be the +EV slotenthusiast is referring to, but going on tilt for my friend is taking plays early. Either way it can be hoped that those that get into this from guidelines end up not believing it based off of a streak of bad variance or are not able to come up with the required bankroll.
I have noticed that a good portion of the beginners are going off of charts on their phones or even PRINTED out papers. I do wonder at what point when too many noobs get into the mix that the casinos will have a problem with it (or if most of them are not bankrolled then the casino still gets their keep).
For a slotenthusiast + I just hit a decent handpay a couple days ago on buffalo diamond with me watching someone with a printed out sheet run out of money chasing a $2.50 play. Got the 3x like $80 in for over $2k (over 80+ starting games). I also at a casino in the middle of nowhere east coast have to deal with the fact that EVERY single buffalo ascension in the place is camped from like noon till 4am.
Quote: Talldude90@NYCAP I dont know if it's better or worse down here, but we only have 1 casino or so per 1 hour - 3 hour drive and it ranges from 1 vulture per 10 vulterable machines to at best 1/20-1/30.
@darkoz I added the vulturing is small potato's voting option for you (and those with similar methods to you).
@slotenthusiast I have mixed feelings, it seems like it could go one of two ways, either like you say, or...
@mcSweeny The problem is (and I've seen it with a very close friend (the only one I've shared my stuff with)) that bankroll management is very hard for most people, as is going on tilt. I suppose BR management would be the +EV slotenthusiast is referring to, but going on tilt for my friend is taking plays early. Either way it can be hoped that those that get into this from guidelines end up not believing it based off of a streak of bad variance or are not able to come up with the required bankroll.
I have noticed that a good portion of the beginners are going off of charts on their phones or even PRINTED out papers. I do wonder at what point when too many noobs get into the mix that the casinos will have a problem with it (or if most of them are not bankrolled then the casino still gets their keep).
For a slotenthusiast + I just hit a decent handpay a couple days ago on buffalo diamond with me watching someone with a printed out sheet run out of money chasing a $2.50 play. Got the 3x like $80 in for over $2k (over 80+ starting games). I also at a casino in the middle of nowhere east coast have to deal with the fact that EVERY single buffalo ascension in the place is camped from like noon till 4am.
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Like you said the area you check has a huge impact and likely skews your opinion.
For example, in the area I work I never check buffalo diamond. I personally feel the time commitment and volatility of that game is not worth my bankroll nor time.
Everything is relative. If I lived in your area and the only plays were buffalo diamond, I’d likely find another line of work or move.
Interesting.. never thought about shared bankroll to prevent going on tilt or play -EV because boredQuote: Talldude90@mcSweeny The problem is (and I've seen it with a very close friend (the only one I've shared my stuff with)) that bankroll management is very hard for most people, as is going on tilt. I suppose BR management would be the +EV slotenthusiast is referring to, but going on tilt for my friend is taking plays early.
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ie: always Check with partner before playing with shared $
Quote: darkozVulturing is just so low on the totem pole in the hierarchy of AP.
Bus hustling is the lowest IMHO.
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Okay, I'll ask: "bus hustling"? I assume you're talking about buses to, e.g., Atlantic City, but what's the hustle?
Quote: ThatDonGuyQuote: darkozVulturing is just so low on the totem pole in the hierarchy of AP.
Bus hustling is the lowest IMHO.
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Okay, I'll ask: "bus hustling"? I assume you're talking about buses to, e.g., Atlantic City, but what's the hustle?
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Turning it into an income. AC isn't good cause the freeplay is less than the bus ticket but some casinos the freeplay affords a profit.
Repeat trips even within the same day, selling your bus freeplay if possible and there was one hustle years ago where you didn't have to take the bus, just show up at the station when it arrived.
Very low level stuff though
Quote: Roberto21When you say ‘living at the casino’, do you mean they actually sleep on the slots floor? Or are they just there a lot during the day? Surely the casino would not allow this to happen, especially if they are not making money off of them.
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hotel comps / staying awake during off hotel days. Everyones high, btw
Quote: OKAYLast week they banned around 6+ for a year. One of them has lived there over a year. Almost all of them homeless.
The asians make takeover WoF and ascension, it's ridiculous. Now I'm just stick to poker multipliersome. I don't know how people can stay at the casino for more than 2 days straight unless your making a lot of money. The asians are the only ones making a profit. It'll get worse too with these open borders, best bet on that.
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Why doesnt the casino ban the asians as well?
Why are they the only ones making a profit?
open borders?
Quote: 100xOddsQuote: OKAYLast week they banned around 6+ for a year. One of them has lived there over a year. Almost all of them homeless.
The asians make takeover WoF and ascension, it's ridiculous. Now I'm just stick to poker multipliersome. I don't know how people can stay at the casino for more than 2 days straight unless your making a lot of money. The asians are the only ones making a profit. It'll get worse too with these open borders, best bet on that.
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Why doesnt the casino ban the asians as well?
Why are they the only ones making a profit?
open borders?
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Because the only time they're seen sitting at a game, they are playing. And they work alone. Most of them are aware when degens are being watched so as to not be caught doing business on the floor. They pretty much take all the WoF's and ascension's.. psh ..
Everyone makes money one day or another, people who are on the streets have about a 10% chance of keeping any of that money, because, well lol... they're gonna be playing something when theirs nothing to play lol. And whatevers left won't get cashed out after the play is finished LMAO
I mean he uploads videos of himself high as a kite with glazed out eyeballs and pupils. He flat out takes stabs at under performing slots in a negative ev state.Quote: SlotenthusiastJay Fructose appears to be a tweaker.
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He is very entertaining though so I'll keep watching. That latest NFL ap thing was hilarious.
Quote: ActuarialI've seen Jay Fructose play into presumably negative EV game states. I also have a suspicion that he is playing -EV slots up to the point that they become +EV, then starting his video showing how he "found" this EV state slot. Based on how positive some of his opportunities are in some known high-vulture-traffic areas, I find it hard to believe these are organic finds.
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+ev with the youtube kickback.
just like +ev with casino promos
Quote: DieterQuote: McSweeneyThere is yet to be a truly big expose, for example there has not yet been some huge, obnoxious YouTuber with tens of millions of subscribers come out and say HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT I FOUND OUT! I'M GONNA TEACH YOU EXACTLY HOW TO MAKE MONEY OFF SLOT MACHINES AND WHICH GAMES TO LOOK FOR! And that video go viral and get 20 million views. I'm actually shocked it hasn't happened yet when you consider how desperate big YouTubers are for clicks.
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I think that's happening on the paid subscription side, if it is happening.
There are some very subtle cues from some creators that there is more going on, and those creators definitely have a paid-only collection of videos for their premium fans.
Why give the cow away when you can sell the milk?
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Most youtube players are degenerates who cannot go without playing a slot machine long enough to find a +ev state. Most of the "big names" believe in "hot" machines as opposed to, you know, like math. Non-youtube people are selling the info though.
Heck, even the "professor" tried to sell "internal must hit by" amounts for slots machines based on known win for $300 per game.
I went to Great Canadian Casino Resort in Toronto, Canada, and there are literally more people checking machines than actual ploppies. I stayed there for 3 nights and made zero money.
In my 10 year old AP career I’ve come to the conclusion that 95 percent of “AP’s” are incredibly stupid and or gambling addicts suffering from alcohol or drug issues. We have one “AP” in my area who claims to have the par sheets to all the games and is an expert. Yet I’ve witnessed this person losing thousands of dollars gambling on sub marginal plays and they aren’t getting bounce back offers since they don’t use a card.
I still make money, because of discipline and intelligence. It’s just harder than it was in the past.
Quote: McSweeneyI disagree that you need a massive bankroll to make a living vulturing slots. That's actually the main reason why it's become so out of control, because even poor people can just go around finding petty little plays to make a profit. It's nothing like blackjack where you actually do need a bankroll of like 10 grand to bet big enough to make more than minimum wage. Although I do agree that the majority of people who go around vulturing slots are just glorified gambling addicts who take bad stuff. However, and unfortunately, they probably find enough good stuff to offset or at least reduce their losses, so it's difficult for them to go broke and remove themselves from the pool of players.
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Slotenthusiast said you need a large bankroll for AP. So not necessarily vulture slots. He's probably referring to must hits and other opportunities.
I guess this being a vulture thread it's easy to conflate conversations
Quote: BTLWISome Upper Midwest casinos not afraid to kick people out for checking now. Wasn't like that before.
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Can you say if that's a permanent trespass, or just a get out of here for a few days kind of kick out?
Just wandering around waiting for the evening buffet to start
If you want to live like a homeless person, staying in your car day and night, that’s your choice. The entry point for positive EV play of certain slot games is based on estimation. How can you be sure you can always play advantageously? But do you have the discipline to do it? Will you also travel through multiple casinos every day? That requires time, and there is no guarantee you will find opportunities.
If you want to play AP slots as a hobby and already have a decent job, go ahead. Are you okay with staying in the casino for 15 hours and being exposed to secondhand smoke? If you’re in contact with it every day, your health will be impacted. You can make some money and have fun, but don’t expect too much from it since the competition is already high. However, consider whether you could invest your time in other valuable activities that might be more rewarding than playing AP slots. There are many possibilities: starting a side project, investing in yourself by gaining more knowledge through reading, or focusing on your main job with the aim of getting promoted, etc. Ultimately, it all comes down to the opportunity cost. And don't forget about the risk.
People are still making good money vulturing, but it really depends on your knowledge of how and when to attack certain other games.Quote: szaThe market for slot machine vulturing is already saturated. For those new to AP, opportunity still exists, but is it worth your time? I can tell you most AP slot players do lose money and can't get ahead, especially those who focus on the Buffalo Ascension games. New slot games with meters are all designed with mutable odds, the higher the number, the lower the odds, the combined EV doesn't improve too much as the meter goes high. Do you know about that?
If you want to live like a homeless person, staying in your car day and night, that’s your choice. The entry point for positive EV play of certain slot games is based on estimation. How can you be sure you can always play advantageously? But do you have the discipline to do it? Will you also travel through multiple casinos every day? That requires time, and there is no guarantee you will find opportunities.
If you want to play AP slots as a hobby and already have a decent job, go ahead. Are you okay with staying in the casino for 15 hours and being exposed to secondhand smoke? If you’re in contact with it every day, your health will be impacted. You can make some money and have fun, but don’t expect too much from it since the competition is already high. However, consider whether you could invest your time in other valuable activities that might be more rewarding than playing AP slots. There are many possibilities: starting a side project, investing in yourself by gaining more knowledge through reading, or focusing on your main job with the aim of getting promoted, etc. Ultimately, it all comes down to the opportunity cost. And don't forget about the risk.
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The normal ABC obvious games in hustler-infested locations might not get the job done.
Slot Vulturing should be a segue into other areas of Advantage Play that are much more lucrative and require less time. One just needs to think outside the box, solve problems, and figure out other opportunities.
The best thing that could happen for AP is a big purge of the Vultures.
Quote: AxelWolf
The best thing that could happen for AP is a big purge of the Vultures.
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Is that not always the case with AP? There is only so much meat on the carcass to go around. The enemy of the AP is not the casino but other AP's (you don't use an apostrophe there Wiz!).
Quote: WizardQuote: AxelWolf
The best thing that could happen for AP is a big purge of the Vultures.
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Is that not always the case with AP? There is only so much meat on the carcass to go around. The enemy of the AP is not the casino but other AP's (you don't use an apostrophe there Wiz!).
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There's a few different ways to look at it. Traditional AP was protected by the fact that it required mentalist skills and not so many people both had them and were capable of using them in the conditions that we do. There are also many skill levels that you develop and can grow into, and once you are into that you can develop your own techniques. The downside is that we all know how quick casinos are to shut down or gimp a table game that they know can be beaten, even if the number of people actually doing that is 1 or 0. So if you have a guy doing something like double-key ace sequencing on a hand shuffled 8D game- realistically- how many people are capable of that and how much are they going to get out of the game compared to what everybody else will be leaving in it? But casino management has a psychological hangup about this, I think it's personal and comes from... shall we put it kindly... a life history of not trying to do the hard things, and they take it out on people who have done differently.
On the slot side what is required to be an AP is knowledge more than talent, and that knowledge can be imparted to a very low level of casino patron. It has also been imparted to some very sinister people and I am aware of slot teams that have done bad things to get muggles off games they wanted to play. So the potential competition for opportunities is much larger. Now the casinos can do something about that too, but being so much of their income is slot dependent, with table games an afterthought, would they really dare mess with persistent state and capped jackpot machines to get rid of the slot vultures? They don't seem to have a problem with wiseguys chasing VP jackpots. My guess is "no," and that being all of the money in those states and in those jackpots came from the patrons, and the profitable patrons seem perfectly happy to play the games and leave those things behind, I don't think there will ever be any incentive for them to do it.
I guess it'll end up as a classical economics thing, where we all kind of slide into our own niche depending on our needs and abilities, and evolve as the environment evolves.
Quote:True persistence games were all the rage in 2021. The accumulation of on-screen equity increased time on device for players who saw in real-time how the more they played, the closer they were coming to triggering bonuses. It didn’t take very long, however, for this novel perk of game play to lose its broad appeal.
Moore wrote: “We found two interesting takeaways: 1) True Persistence games hit below zone average after only five months on the floor. 2) After eight months on the floor, True Persistence games did worse than the average new core video.” (Eilers-Fantini Game Performance Database which tracks almost 400,000 slots internationally).
https://cdcgaming.com/commentary/frank-floor-talk-perceived-persistence-games-dominate-the-slots/
Casino managers have spoken on a number of podcasts about how the problem with APs is not that they win, but that they stop playing. The casino's bottom line is exactly the same whether "Ploppy" Pauline or "AP" Abner clear the board. Pauline will stay and play -EV games to lose it all back over time though. That helps the casino's bottom line.
In the end, the economics of the casino floor will do in the persistent state games. No one will want to play them in bad states. Everyone will want to play them in good states, but there will be no rubes to get them there.
