Has Vulturing gone the way of the dodo

So, I've only been vulturing for a little over a year now. I haven't visited enough casinos to really get a good idea of the variance of density of vultures. I have only visited about 8 different casinos in 4 different markets. Probably a little over 100 sessions at this point. But at the ones I have been at I have seen waaaaay too many people trying to vulture than the casino could support and have a reasonable EV/hr. I have only survived because I am willing to take things at slightly above even. My wants are free vacations (stays/food/experiences/flights[junkets]/free cruises). I can take things slightly positive or even, weather the variance, and get the rewards I seek. I find the occasional somewhat or very rare massively +EV play and thank my lucky stars, but it is few and far in-between. Without the freeplay earned the variance might have been too much. I did well this year, but I tend to associate that with positive variance (overall [for the year] coin-in vs return at about 7-10%). From what I am seeing with the number of vultures and how often they are there it almost seems that the best to hope for at this point is to break even and occasionally happen upon a nice play. Am I being too defeatist? Or is this just the next chapter in Jean Scott's Frugal Vegas, "Vulturing for the sake of comps". The only real AP I see at this point is the DarkOz way/VP with +EV (+FP)/table game dealer flaws/card counting. Is this just the state of gaming as we know it or is vulturing more or less truly dead thanks to youtube/tictock/social media?

If someone said vulturing is dead, you wouldn't be wrong to think that's what they want you to think.

There was a lot more meat left on the bone a decade ago.

Yup, lots more vultures near me.
People are now taking plays below breakeven like a 85% Regal below 60 and hoping to get lucky!

At one casino, a guy is there 24x7. he sleeps in his car when it's warm. during winter, he sleeps at machine locations without much foot traffic.

The problem with running cards is that you're going to run out of friends to get new cards from

Quote: 100xOdds

Yup, lots more vultures near me.
People are now taking plays below breakeven like a 85% Regal below 60 and hoping to get lucky!

At one casino, a guy is there 24x7. he sleeps in his car when it's warm. during winter, he sleeps at machine locations without much foot traffic.

The problem with running cards is that you're going to run out of friends to get new cards from
link to original post

You can always round up a few patsies at any AA meeting.

I think the only thing stopping vulturing from truly becoming oversaturated and dead is that it's STILL to this day a thing that spreads by word of mouth. There is yet to be a truly big expose, for example there has not yet been some huge, obnoxious YouTuber with tens of millions of subscribers come out and say HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT I FOUND OUT! I'M GONNA TEACH YOU EXACTLY HOW TO MAKE MONEY OFF SLOT MACHINES AND WHICH GAMES TO LOOK FOR! And that video go viral and get 20 million views. I'm actually shocked it hasn't happened yet when you consider how desperate big YouTubers are for clicks. This has happened with other money making schemes like dropshopping, which was extremely profitable back in the day until YouTubers came out with tutorials and oversaturated the market. Even something as simple as flipping houses is too hard now.

Quote: McSweeney

There is yet to be a truly big expose, for example there has not yet been some huge, obnoxious YouTuber with tens of millions of subscribers come out and say HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT I FOUND OUT! I'M GONNA TEACH YOU EXACTLY HOW TO MAKE MONEY OFF SLOT MACHINES AND WHICH GAMES TO LOOK FOR! And that video go viral and get 20 million views. I'm actually shocked it hasn't happened yet when you consider how desperate big YouTubers are for clicks.
link to original post

(trimmed)

I think that's happening on the paid subscription side, if it is happening.
There are some very subtle cues from some creators that there is more going on, and those creators definitely have a paid-only collection of videos for their premium fans.

Why give the cow away when you can sell the milk?

Probably depends on your location....

For me, we've definitely been getting a lot more vultures where I'm at, on any given day I am at my local there's AT LEAST 10 people there. One person in particular literally lives at the casino, I'm not kidding, you would think for someone that takes stuff at 18$ a spin he'd have a house and a place to live instead of an old beat up truck.

It's still doable IMO, part of it is just adapting. If you are looking though to make 100k+ all to yourself though? Yea, lower your expectations, I'm happy with the money I make and so far I think I've done a good job adapting to how things have changed. It helps that a good 8/10 of these people are just gamblers and won't admit it, me and maybe 2 other people actually take decent stuff.

I will say though some places you will for sure have a harder time, for example, the casino an hour away from me has a bank of 4 machines, at all 4 machines, there is a team that each has a chair not even 3 feet behind them, and they will camp there ALL DAY long, if you are just walking around, 0% chance you will get any of those 4, they will do things like run ahead of you to get something, "accidently" shove you while they go sit down from the dude that didn't even get off a picosecond ago because he left something that is 0.01% positive and god forbid they don't get it before you do. And if you DO happen to get it they will complain loudly, try to intimidate you, try to bait you into getting into an argument so they can call security on you (I say this because I watched it happen). And that is just one group, some people will sacrifice EV/hr just to wait hours upon hours on end to wait for someone to get finished with one machine, the best part is they usually get left at a below even state, and because they HAVE to justify waiting that long for a "play" they take it anyway and mostly lose, but hey the one time they get lucky it was so worth it!

You also in this scene have a lot fakes, as in people that THINK they take good stuff but they don't, they just get lucky enough that they justify taking something they have no business in taking.

If you can't tell from that rant I do not like people doing that kind of stuff, it grinds my gears to say the least, if it ever gets like that where I'm at, I will probably move on to something else, no way im sitting in a chair 8 hours a day doing that kind of thing. There's plenty of more stuff to do.

Was on a Carnival Cruise last week and the number of vultures compared to past cruises was exponentially higher. Regal Riches, Rich Little Piggies, Ocean Magic were all constantly bombarded with them. Sometimes, within seconds of scanning the situation on OM, another vulture would come by and do the same. I kept laughing at them.

My thoughts exactly. You’ll know the market is dead when YouTubers start giving up the game in return for Patreon support. It seems everyone’s making enough money at the moment to keep quiet about it. I watch Jay Fructose Slots and SlotsofOpportunities on the daily, and the latter is definitely a channel worth checking out. He may hold the record for having the highest RTP in the slot community. He is arguably the most disciplined slot player on YouTube too. If anyone knows any other advantage slot channels on YouTube (that consistently upload) I would love to hear it!

Quote: Roberto21

He may hold the record for having the highest RTP in the slot community. He is arguably the most disciplined slot player on YouTube too. If anyone knows any other advantage slot channels on YouTube (that consistently upload) I would love to hear it!
link to original post

So he just plays +ev slots?
Does he says it's an AP slot or keeps quiet about that part?

Neither JayFructose nor SlotsofOpportunities are serious, disciplined APs. They are very much those degens who happen to know some plays mentioned earlier in this thread. JayFructose in particular I would suggest is about one step above the homeless guy who sits on a 7 blue on $0.75/spin Regal Riches for twelve hours telling people to pay him half the profits on it if they want him to get up and insisting such an amazing play could never lose. Yes, I've actually seen this.

Both their channel descriptions mention Slot AP, they definitely know when to play whether they personally wait until that moment to play or not is a different story, although SlotsofOpportunities seems a bit more level-headed than Jay Fructose.

Gamble every day (gambleeveryday) was a Vegas guy doing only vulture games on YouTube. Stopped about 7 months ago looks like.

Looks like many of the same games as SlotsofOpportunities.

Locally, the vultures have created a race to unprofitable plays with recoupment via comps, drawings and promotions.

They started running to 51 Regals at one point. Like WTF. It gets in your head, "Wait, do they know something I don't. Was there a machine update?" It's just a big merge together of unprofitable + profitable with no separation. 14 hours a day at the casino without the discipline to not gamble.

Could be bored, could be on tilt, could just be just trying to make sure the competition gets no plays at all. If it is a promo, there are some that I could see making it interesting. One in Biloxi has a chance (swipe in on promo desk when you get there at different dates/times) of 100x reward credits for the whole day. If you got something like that, entry points would most def change.

Compared to 3 years ago, I would say there are 3x vultures/hustlers searching for the same plays.

At many casinos in Atlantic City/region, there are teams who either camp all day or monitor all day. In the busiest casinos in AC, the teams have very well defined shifts and they keep 100% coverage even during the night.

Can you find plays? Sure. You will always be able to find some plays. They can not profitably have 100% coverage. It is simply a question of hourly EV.

What surprises me is that even in rural casinos that have a handful of weak AP games, there are regular groups of what seems like retired people who sit around all day and pick up occasional plays. I guess this is better than sitting in front of TV at home... but they are making peanuts.

Quote: NYCAP

What surprises me is that even in rural casinos that have a handful of weak AP games, there are regular groups of what seems like retired people who sit around all day and pick up occasional plays. I guess this is better than sitting in front of TV at home... but they are making peanuts.
link to original post

Yup, at one of my casinos, a weekend AP got his parents (grandparents?) in the act.
Then all of a sudden weeks later ALOT of old people are camping out at all the vulturable banks making +EV plays impossible.
Now you're taking it at slightly -EV for comps. :(

Vulturing is just so low on the totem pole in the hierarchy of AP.

Bus hustling is the lowest IMHO.

Don't get me wrong. I did the bus hustling myself years ago. There are necessary starting points given someone isn't being trained and I have respect for both vultures and bus hustlers.

But on the totem pole they are low. Some of my workers who were trained by me and never did vulturing really despise them as below contempt and will do anything to avoid or hamper them including turning around mid-play to just stare at camped vultures behind them (which they have reported sometimes does work although it may be because if not playing the vultures have no reason to watch).

One of my workers wanted to report them to security but I absolutely put my foot down. Not only Don't I agree with ever reporting an AP to security (not for AP reasons, if they are acting violent or threatening that's different) but I had to ask my crew who would be more scrutinized in the end, a patron who sits all day behind players or a patron switching players cards with multiple names.

They got my point.

Anyway vulturing is certainly way too bottom feeder for me In my current position.

Quote: McSweeney

I think the only thing stopping vulturing from truly becoming oversaturated and dead is that it's STILL to this day a thing that spreads by word of mouth. There is yet to be a truly big expose, for example there has not yet been some huge, obnoxious YouTuber with tens of millions of subscribers come out and say HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT I FOUND OUT! I'M GONNA TEACH YOU EXACTLY HOW TO MAKE MONEY OFF SLOT MACHINES AND WHICH GAMES TO LOOK FOR! And that video go viral and get 20 million views. I'm actually shocked it hasn't happened yet when you consider how desperate big YouTubers are for clicks. This has happened with other money making schemes like dropshopping, which was extremely profitable back in the day until YouTubers came out with tutorials and oversaturated the market. Even something as simple as flipping houses is too hard now.
link to original post

AP’ing slots is a lot more involved than what any video or class could expose. I’d encourage a video like that, as it would just be more people going broke on plays for me to make money on. People underestimate the bankroll and discipline requirements to be a successful AP. I’ve been involved on multiple plays that would bankrupt 99 percent of the average gamblers out there.

I disagree. If a person were spoonfed the guidelines as to when a particular machine is in a profitable state, even an idiot could copy down those guidelines and use them to make money by only playing the machine when it's in that state. This is different from something like card counting that takes a tremendous amount of skill and practice to pull off live in a casino, even if a person is told exactly how card counting works. The threat of advantage slot playing is the knowledge of those +EV guidelines spreading to tons of people; once any idiot has those guidelines in his or her hands, it takes zero skill beyond pressing a button a bunch of times.

In particular I worry about something like a Wikia being made with every slot machine ever made on it that people can just look up, and then people start writing guidelines on every game as to when it's +EV. That would be a disaster. I personally love it when a brand new slot machine comes out and there's zero information on the Internet as to when it's +EV because I can always form a hypothesis, test it out, tweak my guidelines, and then make a bunch of money off it months before people in the casino start figuring it out and then all the profit inevitably dries up.

Jay Fructose appears to be a tweaker.

@NYCAP I dont know if it's better or worse down here, but we only have 1 casino or so per 1 hour - 3 hour drive and it ranges from 1 vulture per 10 vulterable machines to at best 1/20-1/30.

@darkoz I added the vulturing is small potato's voting option for you (and those with similar methods to you).

@slotenthusiast I have mixed feelings, it seems like it could go one of two ways, either like you say, or...

@mcSweeny The problem is (and I've seen it with a very close friend (the only one I've shared my stuff with)) that bankroll management is very hard for most people, as is going on tilt. I suppose BR management would be the +EV slotenthusiast is referring to, but going on tilt for my friend is taking plays early. Either way it can be hoped that those that get into this from guidelines end up not believing it based off of a streak of bad variance or are not able to come up with the required bankroll.

I have noticed that a good portion of the beginners are going off of charts on their phones or even PRINTED out papers. I do wonder at what point when too many noobs get into the mix that the casinos will have a problem with it (or if most of them are not bankrolled then the casino still gets their keep).

For a slotenthusiast + I just hit a decent handpay a couple days ago on buffalo diamond with me watching someone with a printed out sheet run out of money chasing a $2.50 play. Got the 3x like $80 in for over $2k (over 80+ starting games). I also at a casino in the middle of nowhere east coast have to deal with the fact that EVERY single buffalo ascension in the place is camped from like noon till 4am.

Quote: Talldude90

@NYCAP I dont know if it's better or worse down here, but we only have 1 casino or so per 1 hour - 3 hour drive and it ranges from 1 vulture per 10 vulterable machines to at best 1/20-1/30.

@darkoz I added the vulturing is small potato's voting option for you (and those with similar methods to you).

@slotenthusiast I have mixed feelings, it seems like it could go one of two ways, either like you say, or...

@mcSweeny The problem is (and I've seen it with a very close friend (the only one I've shared my stuff with)) that bankroll management is very hard for most people, as is going on tilt. I suppose BR management would be the +EV slotenthusiast is referring to, but going on tilt for my friend is taking plays early. Either way it can be hoped that those that get into this from guidelines end up not believing it based off of a streak of bad variance or are not able to come up with the required bankroll.

I have noticed that a good portion of the beginners are going off of charts on their phones or even PRINTED out papers. I do wonder at what point when too many noobs get into the mix that the casinos will have a problem with it (or if most of them are not bankrolled then the casino still gets their keep).

For a slotenthusiast + I just hit a decent handpay a couple days ago on buffalo diamond with me watching someone with a printed out sheet run out of money chasing a $2.50 play. Got the 3x like $80 in for over $2k (over 80+ starting games). I also at a casino in the middle of nowhere east coast have to deal with the fact that EVERY single buffalo ascension in the place is camped from like noon till 4am.
link to original post

Like you said the area you check has a huge impact and likely skews your opinion.

For example, in the area I work I never check buffalo diamond. I personally feel the time commitment and volatility of that game is not worth my bankroll nor time.

Everything is relative. If I lived in your area and the only plays were buffalo diamond, I’d likely find another line of work or move.

Quote: Talldude90

@mcSweeny The problem is (and I've seen it with a very close friend (the only one I've shared my stuff with)) that bankroll management is very hard for most people, as is going on tilt. I suppose BR management would be the +EV slotenthusiast is referring to, but going on tilt for my friend is taking plays early.
link to original post

Interesting.. never thought about shared bankroll to prevent going on tilt or play -EV because bored
ie: always Check with partner before playing with shared $

One casino has like 35 of each game: Regal Riches, Rich piggies, about 25 Ocean Magic/Golden Egypt, 6 WoF.. it becomes impossible finding plays theirs way too many people checking machines. Last week they banned around 6+ for a year. One of them has lived there over a year. Almost all of them homeless. The asians make takeover WoF and ascension, it's ridiculous. Now I'm just stick to poker multipliersome. I don't know how people can stay at the casino for more than 2 days straight unless your making a lot of money. The asians are the only ones making a profit. It'll get worse too with these open borders, best bet on that.

When you say ‘living at the casino’, do you mean they actually sleep on the slots floor? Or are they just there a lot during the day? Surely the casino would not allow this to happen, especially if they are not making money off of them.

Quote: darkoz

Vulturing is just so low on the totem pole in the hierarchy of AP.

Bus hustling is the lowest IMHO.
link to original post

Okay, I'll ask: "bus hustling"? I assume you're talking about buses to, e.g., Atlantic City, but what's the hustle?

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: darkoz

Vulturing is just so low on the totem pole in the hierarchy of AP.

Bus hustling is the lowest IMHO.
link to original post

Okay, I'll ask: "bus hustling"? I assume you're talking about buses to, e.g., Atlantic City, but what's the hustle?
link to original post

Turning it into an income. AC isn't good cause the freeplay is less than the bus ticket but some casinos the freeplay affords a profit.

Repeat trips even within the same day, selling your bus freeplay if possible and there was one hustle years ago where you didn't have to take the bus, just show up at the station when it arrived.

Very low level stuff though

Quote: Roberto21

When you say ‘living at the casino’, do you mean they actually sleep on the slots floor? Or are they just there a lot during the day? Surely the casino would not allow this to happen, especially if they are not making money off of them.
link to original post

hotel comps / staying awake during off hotel days. Everyones high, btw

Yeah well I guess it beats spending all day on the street. I always wonder how someone with a high enough IQ to do AP successfully ends up in that spot in the first place. They clearly don’t lack work ethic if they’re there 24/7 lol

Quote: OKAY

Last week they banned around 6+ for a year. One of them has lived there over a year. Almost all of them homeless.
The asians make takeover WoF and ascension, it's ridiculous. Now I'm just stick to poker multipliersome. I don't know how people can stay at the casino for more than 2 days straight unless your making a lot of money. The asians are the only ones making a profit. It'll get worse too with these open borders, best bet on that.
link to original post

Why doesnt the casino ban the asians as well?
Why are they the only ones making a profit?
open borders?

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: OKAY

Last week they banned around 6+ for a year. One of them has lived there over a year. Almost all of them homeless.
The asians make takeover WoF and ascension, it's ridiculous. Now I'm just stick to poker multipliersome. I don't know how people can stay at the casino for more than 2 days straight unless your making a lot of money. The asians are the only ones making a profit. It'll get worse too with these open borders, best bet on that.
link to original post

Why doesnt the casino ban the asians as well?
Why are they the only ones making a profit?
open borders?
link to original post

Because the only time they're seen sitting at a game, they are playing. And they work alone. Most of them are aware when degens are being watched so as to not be caught doing business on the floor. They pretty much take all the WoF's and ascension's.. psh ..

Everyone makes money one day or another, people who are on the streets have about a 10% chance of keeping any of that money, because, well lol... they're gonna be playing something when theirs nothing to play lol. And whatevers left won't get cashed out after the play is finished LMAO

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Jay Fructose appears to be a tweaker.
link to original post

I mean he uploads videos of himself high as a kite with glazed out eyeballs and pupils. He flat out takes stabs at under performing slots in a negative ev state.

He is very entertaining though so I'll keep watching. That latest NFL ap thing was hilarious.

Had not heard of slot of opportunities but have seen jay fructose. It’s nice slots doesn’t advertise services but I did notice a bunch of these ppl follow each other. Slot 2b frank, buffalo bob slots, king solo slots, slots of opportunities. Not sure if it’s intentional they are trying bombard YouTube on the daily all together but after watching a few clips it’s frustrating to see them either be blatant racist/unlikable ppl (especially buffalo bob) and trying to solicit their patreon/service as if they know all the cheat codes

I've seen Jay Fructose play into presumably negative EV game states. I also have a suspicion that he is playing -EV slots up to the point that they become +EV, then starting his video showing how he "found" this EV state slot. Based on how positive some of his opportunities are in some known high-vulture-traffic areas, I find it hard to believe these are organic finds.

Quote: Actuarial

I've seen Jay Fructose play into presumably negative EV game states. I also have a suspicion that he is playing -EV slots up to the point that they become +EV, then starting his video showing how he "found" this EV state slot. Based on how positive some of his opportunities are in some known high-vulture-traffic areas, I find it hard to believe these are organic finds.
link to original post

+ev with the youtube kickback.

just like +ev with casino promos

Quote: Dieter

Quote: McSweeney

There is yet to be a truly big expose, for example there has not yet been some huge, obnoxious YouTuber with tens of millions of subscribers come out and say HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT I FOUND OUT! I'M GONNA TEACH YOU EXACTLY HOW TO MAKE MONEY OFF SLOT MACHINES AND WHICH GAMES TO LOOK FOR! And that video go viral and get 20 million views. I'm actually shocked it hasn't happened yet when you consider how desperate big YouTubers are for clicks.
link to original post

(trimmed)

I think that's happening on the paid subscription side, if it is happening.
There are some very subtle cues from some creators that there is more going on, and those creators definitely have a paid-only collection of videos for their premium fans.

Why give the cow away when you can sell the milk?
link to original post

Most youtube players are degenerates who cannot go without playing a slot machine long enough to find a +ev state. Most of the "big names" believe in "hot" machines as opposed to, you know, like math. Non-youtube people are selling the info though.

Heck, even the "professor" tried to sell "internal must hit by" amounts for slots machines based on known win for $300 per game.

I travel around every weekend I can to advantage gamble and, in my experience, lack of competition is a more important factor for making money than size of the casino. I'm invariably disappointed every time I go to a big city with lots of big casinos because, despite the large amount of advantage machines, they are completely infested with vultures and often have full time campers on all the big banks of machines. You're better off going to a mid size city or even some small hick town.

I went to Great Canadian Casino Resort in Toronto, Canada, and there are literally more people checking machines than actual ploppies. I stayed there for 3 nights and made zero money.

AP is getting harder and harder. You are now required to have a massive bankroll to make a living doing this. Also in my market are homeless Tweaker’s, Asians who basically live off of room comps, and trust fund babies with parental support. You know they are being supported because they lose their entire bankroll then pop back up a few weeks later with massive bankrolls.

In my 10 year old AP career I’ve come to the conclusion that 95 percent of “AP’s” are incredibly stupid and or gambling addicts suffering from alcohol or drug issues. We have one “AP” in my area who claims to have the par sheets to all the games and is an expert. Yet I’ve witnessed this person losing thousands of dollars gambling on sub marginal plays and they aren’t getting bounce back offers since they don’t use a card.

I still make money, because of discipline and intelligence. It’s just harder than it was in the past.

I disagree that you need a massive bankroll to make a living vulturing slots. That's actually the main reason why it's become so out of control, because even poor people can just go around finding petty little plays to make a profit. It's nothing like blackjack where you actually do need a bankroll of like 10 grand to bet big enough to make more than minimum wage. Although I do agree that the majority of people who go around vulturing slots are just glorified gambling addicts who take bad stuff. However, and unfortunately, they probably find enough good stuff to offset or at least reduce their losses, so it's difficult for them to go broke and remove themselves from the pool of players.

Quote: McSweeney

I disagree that you need a massive bankroll to make a living vulturing slots. That's actually the main reason why it's become so out of control, because even poor people can just go around finding petty little plays to make a profit. It's nothing like blackjack where you actually do need a bankroll of like 10 grand to bet big enough to make more than minimum wage. Although I do agree that the majority of people who go around vulturing slots are just glorified gambling addicts who take bad stuff. However, and unfortunately, they probably find enough good stuff to offset or at least reduce their losses, so it's difficult for them to go broke and remove themselves from the pool of players.
link to original post

Slotenthusiast said you need a large bankroll for AP. So not necessarily vulture slots. He's probably referring to must hits and other opportunities.

I guess this being a vulture thread it's easy to conflate conversations

Was briefly watching SDGuy livestream and jay fructose was on the live stream and he went on this whole rant about Vegas Matt and how he hit jay up for tips or APs or something in the background as SDguy was waiting for a handpay… I don’t think jay realized he was being recorded but it just went on and on about his dislike for Vegas Matt and how Vegas Matt eventually didn’t want to collab with him. This livestream has now been taken down which is also very odd the next day. Did anyone else catch it? Anyone know more to this story?

Some Upper Midwest casinos not afraid to kick people out for checking now. Wasn't like that before.

Quote: BTLWI

Some Upper Midwest casinos not afraid to kick people out for checking now. Wasn't like that before.
link to original post

Can you say if that's a permanent trespass, or just a get out of here for a few days kind of kick out?

Found this in Biloxi.
Just wandering around waiting for the evening buffet to start