Gravy
• Posts: 5
Joined: Dec 25, 2017
January 29th, 2022 at 11:23:24 AM permalink
The way that I understand RTP is that if a machine has a return of 96%, over some period of time it will eventually return \$96 for every \$100 spent.

My question is, how does "all money wagered" factor into this?

Let's say I insert \$1000 into a slot machine and play for several hours. During my time playing, I have lots of small wins that I end up putting back into the machine. When I get down to only \$10 left, I manager to hit for \$800.

So how do I calculate the RTP in this particular case?

Am I only to consider the original deposit into the machine of \$1000, or am I to include all the small wins that I got along the way which could bring my total amount wagered up to perhaps \$1400?

\$800 + \$10 = \$810 / \$1000 = .81 = 81%

OR

\$800 + \$10 = \$810 / \$1400 = .578 = 57.8%

Which one is correct or are both wrong?
Dieter
• Posts: 5710
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
January 29th, 2022 at 11:45:27 AM permalink
Quote: Gravy

The way that I understand RTP is that if a machine has a return of 96%, over some period of time it will eventually return \$96 for every \$100 spent.

My question is, how does "all money wagered" factor into this?

Let's say I insert \$1000 into a slot machine and play for several hours. During my time playing, I have lots of small wins that I end up putting back into the machine. When I get down to only \$10 left, I manager to hit for \$800.

So how do I calculate the RTP in this particular case?

Am I only to consider the original deposit into the machine of \$1000, or am I to include all the small wins that I got along the way which could bring my total amount wagered up to perhaps \$1400?

\$800 + \$10 = \$810 / \$1000 = .81 = 81%

OR

\$800 + \$10 = \$810 / \$1400 = .578 = 57.8%

Which one is correct or are both wrong?

I'm going to assume they're both wrong.

If I place 1000 \$1 bets, I expect to end up with about \$960.

If I place another 960 \$1 bets, I expect to end up with about \$921, but I've placed \$1960 into action (the common term here is coin in).

The common way to do some figuring is to use the player tracking system, know the point accumulation vs coin in rate, and do some math from how many points you've earned in the session vs how much cash you've inserted vs how much you cashed out.

I'm not very good at math, so I don't want to give you a bad formula.
May the cards fall in your favor.
OnceDear
• Posts: 7485
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
January 29th, 2022 at 11:48:45 AM permalink
Quote: Gravy

The way that I understand RTP is that if a machine has a return of 96%, over some period of time it will eventually return \$96 for every \$100 spent.

My question is, how does "all money wagered" factor into this?

Let's say I insert \$1000 into a slot machine and play for several hours. During my time playing, I have lots of small wins that I end up putting back into the machine. When I get down to only \$10 left, I manager to hit for \$800.

So how do I calculate the RTP in this particular case?

Am I only to consider the original deposit into the machine of \$1000, or am I to include all the small wins that I got along the way which could bring my total amount wagered up to perhaps \$1400?

\$800 + \$10 = \$810 / \$1000 = .81 = 81%

OR

\$800 + \$10 = \$810 / \$1400 = .578 = 57.8%

Which one is correct or are both wrong?

Both are wrong.....

Back in the day where slots simply took a coin in, played once and returned our winnings, this would have been simple
RTP is an average of (total of what is paid out by the slot) divided by (total of what is inserted into the slot) and converted to a percentage.

Since slots now maintain a credit balance until cash out, we need to re-work that

You describe a situation where you put some money in, get some winnings out ( or win some which is added to the credit balance) and play it repeatedly, exposing it repeatedly to the house edge.

If a machine costs 1 unit to play, then every time you hit 'start' the denominator goes up by 1. Every time the slot awards a win, then whatever value, in credits is credited is added to the numerator. At any time, divide numerator by denominator to give the RTP that you encountered. The TRUE Rtp would be the average of numerator/denominator over all time. RTP is set as a target return within the machine. Any player might receive better or worse. Jackpots can skew the RTP such that the typical player gets a low return while the very occasional jackpot winner gets far higher.

You do not give enough info to determine numerator or denominator.

Alternative to RTP is the 'Hold' of the machine. That is the (average) ratio of what you have when you leave the machine, to what you have when you walk up to it. It will be lower than the RTP, because of all the money you repeatedly cycled through it.
Last edited by: OnceDear on Jan 29, 2022
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Dieter
• Posts: 5710
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
January 29th, 2022 at 12:01:27 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

If I place 1000 \$1 bets, I expect to end up with about \$960.

If I place another 960 \$1 bets, I expect to end up with about \$921, but I've placed \$1960 into action (the common term here is coin in).

I should also note that off that \$1960 in coin in, we got back \$1881.

There is also the concept of variance (or volatility) that will confuse any simple approach to calculating the RTP.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Gravy
• Posts: 5
Joined: Dec 25, 2017
January 29th, 2022 at 2:16:59 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Both are wrong.....

Back in the day where slots simply took a coin in, played once and returned our winnings, this would have been simple
RTP is an average of (total of what is paid out by the slot) divided by (total of what is inserted into the slot) and converted to a percentage.

Since slots now maintain a credit balance until cash out, we need to re-work that

I thought that one way to calculate your return is to simply add up the total amount of money you've inserted into machines and then divide that by the total amount of money you've cashed out over that period.

If I've inserted \$10,000 into slot machines over a single period, and saved \$8000 in cash-outs during that period, is my return not 80%?
Dieter
• Posts: 5710
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
January 29th, 2022 at 3:26:44 PM permalink
Quote: Gravy

Quote: OnceDear

Both are wrong.....

Back in the day where slots simply took a coin in, played once and returned our winnings, this would have been simple
RTP is an average of (total of what is paid out by the slot) divided by (total of what is inserted into the slot) and converted to a percentage.

Since slots now maintain a credit balance until cash out, we need to re-work that

I thought that one way to calculate your return is to simply add up the total amount of money you've inserted into machines and then divide that by the total amount of money you've cashed out over that period.

If I've inserted \$10,000 into slot machines over a single period, and saved \$8000 in cash-outs during that period, is my return not 80%?

Inserting cash into the bill acceptor and having it credited is different than how much money you have wagered.

If I put \$100 into the machine, and play a single \$1 game with a result of \$0, I can cash out \$99, but the return of the games played is \$0.
The correct RTP is probably neither 99% nor 0%.
May the cards fall in your favor.
OnceDear
• Posts: 7485
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
January 29th, 2022 at 4:11:57 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

If I put \$100 into the machine, and play a single \$1 game with a result of \$0, I can cash out \$99, but the return of the games played is \$0.
The correct RTP is probably neither 99% nor 0%.

If you credited 100 and played 1 and debited your 99,

then the 100 and 99 are irrelevant

the 1 you wagered experienced a short term RTP of 0/1 = 0%

That's not the RTP of the machine over its lifetime though.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
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Joined: Jun 1, 2014
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January 29th, 2022 at 4:31:13 PM permalink
Quote: Gravy

If I've inserted \$10,000 into slot machines over a single period, and saved \$8000 in cash-outs during that period, is my return not 80%?

Lets say you credited \$1000 and played at \$1 per wager

As you play, the display reduces your balance by 1 and occasionally increases by some amount won.
Your credit balance ebbs and flows, tending to drift down.

After 10 hours you are still sat there, you have played 100000 wagers, your balance has dwindled to 500

You cash out.
the game has taken in total action of \$100000. It has returned, during that play session, 99500.
It has been operating at a RTP rate of 99500/100000 or 99.5% The machine doesnt care if you had started out putting 2000 in and cashed out 1500 or if you had credited 500 and cashed out nothing. RTP has to take account of the total Action, or coin in.

You had credited 1000 and got returned to you just 500. or 50% :o(
You had subjected yourself to a total return rate of 50% because you had just kept sat there churning your money through. But that's not the definition of RTP. It just isn't.

You might just as easily credited 2000, played those exact same ten hours of games and cashed out 1500 for the same net loss.
And in that instance, though you got back 75% of what you put in, that is not 75% RTP.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Gravy
• Posts: 5
Joined: Dec 25, 2017
January 29th, 2022 at 6:30:17 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Lets say you credited \$1000 and played at \$1 per wager

As you play, the display reduces your balance by 1 and occasionally increases by some amount won.
Your credit balance ebbs and flows, tending to drift down.

After 10 hours you are still sat there, you have played 100000 wagers, your balance has dwindled to 500

You cash out.
the game has taken in total action of \$100000. It has returned, during that play session, 99500.
It has been operating at a RTP rate of 99500/100000 or 99.5% The machine doesnt care if you had started out putting 2000 in and cashed out 1500 or if you had credited 500 and cashed out nothing. RTP has to take account of the total Action, or coin in.

Okay, got it. This is a very good explanation. It perfectly explains how the total amount wagered is factored into RTP.

So the example I gave where \$10,000 went in and I ended up with \$8000, what exactly is that? I guess it's just a simple profit / loss calculation? I now understand why it has nothing to do with RTP.
100xOdds
• Posts: 4398
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
January 30th, 2022 at 9:05:26 AM permalink
Quote: Gravy

Okay, got it. This is a very good explanation. It perfectly explains how the total amount wagered is factored into RTP.

So the example I gave where \$10,000 went in and I ended up with \$8000, what exactly is that? I guess it's just a simple profit / loss calculation? I now understand why it has nothing to do with RTP.

assuming 1point = \$1 coin-in:
i think it depends on how much you started with.
to me, if you started with \$10k, then (10k-8k)/10k = 80% rtp for that session.

edit:
hm.. if you started with \$5000 then (5k-8k)/10k= -30% rtp = ???% rtp for that session.
(help me Mathletes)
Last edited by: 100xOdds on Jan 30, 2022
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
OnceDear
• Posts: 7485
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
January 30th, 2022 at 11:25:36 AM permalink
Quote: Gravy

Quote: OnceDear

Lets say you credited \$1000 and played at \$1 per wager

As you play, the display reduces your balance by 1 and occasionally increases by some amount won.
Your credit balance ebbs and flows, tending to drift down.

After 10 hours you are still sat there, you have played 100000 wagers, your balance has dwindled to 500

You cash out.
the game has taken in total action of \$100000. It has returned, during that play session, 99500.
It has been operating at a RTP rate of 99500/100000 or 99.5% The machine doesnt care if you had started out putting 2000 in and cashed out 1500 or if you had credited 500 and cashed out nothing. RTP has to take account of the total Action, or coin in.

Okay, got it. This is a very good explanation. It perfectly explains how the total amount wagered is factored into RTP.

So the example I gave where \$10,000 went in and I ended up with \$8000, what exactly is that? I guess it's just a simple profit / loss calculation? I now understand why it has nothing to do with RTP.

It's not even one where division has any meaning. If you inserted \$10,000 in the machine and had another \$90,000 in your pocket, then when you left the casino you would have \$98,000
Either way it was a \$2000 loss. You can work out 8000/10000 or 98000/100000 and you will have two meaningless numbers for your RTP.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
p13man
• Posts: 32
Joined: Jul 14, 2019
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January 30th, 2022 at 4:36:04 PM permalink
The RTP is determined by the maths model baked into any given machine i.e. the composition of the reels, payout rates on line hits, the distribution of values assigned to feature elements (e.g. hold and spin coins). The model will determine how much money is returned to the player versus how much is put in. A 'return' is basically any amount that is added to the credit bank. It is pointless to calculate RTP at the player or session levels. You are unlikely to experience the actual RTP in your session. Your returns could be \$0 or \$20000. As previously mentioned, the game's volatility will influence what you experience on the day. Bottom line - the RTP is used by the operator to calculate how much they can expect to 'earn' if they operate a machine for 1 year or 10 years. You won't get near to getting returns that match the RTP unless you play the game constantly for at least a year. Probably nearer 10 years.
Gravy
• Posts: 5
Joined: Dec 25, 2017
January 30th, 2022 at 6:59:23 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

assuming 1point = \$1 coin-in:
i think it depends on how much you started with.
to me, if you started with \$10k, then (10k-8k)/10k = 80% rtp for that session.

It wouldn't be RTP though. It's explained why earlier in this thread.
Jimmy21
• Posts: 14
Joined: Nov 15, 2021
January 30th, 2022 at 10:41:04 PM permalink
Quote: Gravy

The way that I understand RTP is that if a machine has a return of 96%, over some period of time it will eventually return \$96 for every \$100 spent.

My question is, how does "all money wagered" factor into this?

Let's say I insert \$1000 into a slot machine and play for several hours. During my time playing, I have lots of small wins that I end up putting back into the machine. When I get down to only \$10 left, I manager to hit for \$800.

So how do I calculate the RTP in this particular case?

Am I only to consider the original deposit into the machine of \$1000, or am I to include all the small wins that I got along the way which could bring my total amount wagered up to perhaps \$1400?

\$800 + \$10 = \$810 / \$1000 = .81 = 81%

OR

\$800 + \$10 = \$810 / \$1400 = .578 = 57.8%

Which one is correct or are both wrong?

How much were all the small wins? You have to know that. If you played for several hours, it would be much more than \$1400. It might be like \$10,000. So, you wagered 10,000. Since you started with 1,000 and were able to wager 10,000, it means you won 9,000 of that 10,000. 9000/10000 is 90%

You have to accurately know what your coin in was to be able to calculate it
Gravy
• Posts: 5
Joined: Dec 25, 2017
January 31st, 2022 at 11:01:03 AM permalink
Quote: Jimmy21

How much were all the small wins? You have to know that. If you played for several hours, it would be much more than \$1400. It might be like \$10,000. So, you wagered 10,000. Since you started with 1,000 and were able to wager 10,000, it means you won 9,000 of that 10,000. 9000/10000 is 90%

You have to accurately know what your coin in was to be able to calculate it

None of that is important for the sake of discussion though, right?

We can just use arbitrary numbers such as \$1400 for the purpose of showing how it fits into a formula.

I'm not trying to get an exact number for a particular gambling session lol.