Are Slot Bonus Rounds Predetermined?

Hi everyone, I live in a large gaming Canadian gaming market. Specifically, Ontario. I have been a slot player for many years. I have always believed that bonus rounds were based on my choices. Many times I would pick a lousy bonus round and become very frustrated. My friend has recently been employed by Ontario Lottery and Gaming, the owner of all the casinos in the province, which primarily is the government of Ontario. During orientation, he was told how the machines work. He questioned how the bonus rounds operate and was told that all bonus rounds are predetermined. No matter what I pick, the results would always be the same. Just wondering if anyone out there knows for sure. I would really like to be enlightened.

Thanks.

I can't answer this, because I don't know. But I have noticed on some machines that offer free spin choices for example

30 spins X1
15 spins X 2
5 spins X 6

(Iforget the exact combos) but anyway, I've noticed when you pick the 30 it will spin and spin and spin and you get not many hits. Spin the high multiplier, and amazingly you likely get one big hit out just 5 spins -- the end result seems to be the same most of the time between the options. So, on those I'd say it's predetermined

On the other hand, there are bonus rounds where you try to match identical symbols out of many choices, and until you get a matching pair, the bonus round doesn't start or award. Those, at least at the matching stage could go anywhere it seems. Although, it's almost always likely the best bonuses have the fewest matching symbols, so it's likely you won't hit the biggest one when you play.

I don't know what rules are in place in Ontario so this may or may not apply to you, but everything I've read over the past few years indicate that your selection does make a difference, provided you are playing on a "Class III" machine which is what is used in Las Vegas and most other casino's. Some districts use "Class II" machines which are more like bingo and are also referred to as "Video Lottery Terminals" in which case the results is predetermined. In this article a Williams Gaming VP said this about the "Jackpot Party" game:

Quote:

When Jackpot Party multi-tier progressive first started appearing in casinos in the Chicago area, Rob Bone, vice-president of marketing for WMS told me: "Giving players a sense of control, and allowing them to determine what progressive they qualify for is a huge attribute of the game".

"It is based purely upon what symbols and what presents the player picks to determine what progressive award they achieve," he added.

Other articles I've read have also stated this.

(Edited to add, since you state the employer is "Ontario Lottery and Gaming" I'd guess there is a pretty good chance that the games are Class II, in which case your friend is correct and your selections make no difference.)

The Wizard answered that question in a video about slot machines he did for The American Casino Guide on YouTube. In Las Vegas, your choices do indeed make a difference, but I don't know about how they are programmed in Canada.

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MathExtremist (ME) would be perfect to address this. Unlike him, I have not worked directly for a slot maker. I can only go off of PARS sheets and what I've been told. That said, it is my understanding that in bonus rounds where to pick icons on the screen the player does indeed control his destiny. The game shuffles the prizes and you pick them, like on Deal or No Deal. It also may be that the game is continuously shuffling them until you do make a choice, much like the rest of the deck while the game is waiting for the player to discard. I'd be interested to hear what ME says on that.

Even if the players win is predetermined, the PARS sheets I've seen indicate that every prize has equal odds. So, mathematically, it wouldn't matter if the player had free will or not. All this is my answer for class III games. Class II slots (bingo based) would not allow for free will, because the outcome must be determined by the draw of the bingo balls.

Here in PA, on the un-predetermined machines the other choices are revealed. So if you're playing Fireball Frenzy and pick a Fireball, after your choice is revealed the other two options are also revealed. But on the "Power-up Bonus" machines (there are several of those), whatever you pick, you never get to see what else might have happened with a different pick, leading me to believe that it wouldn't have made any difference.

I'm not sure how the OLG does it. If the slots are centrally-determined virtual pull-tabs like they are in New York racinos or Washington tribal locations, then everything (not just the bonus round) is predetermined by the central computer managing the set of tickets. One thing you can ask your friend is whether the slot game gets its results from a remote server or whether it does a random determination within the machine. On the other hand, gaming regs usually don't address whether bonus round outcomes may be fully determined at the beginning of each play or whether the player's interaction must have something to do with it. There are 3 or 4 different ways to handle it, but basically all of them are mathematically equivalent. For example, a 12-spot pick-until-pop bonus can be evaluated by the average total value before "collect" under random picking, or by a predetermined number of picks to reveal. It's actually easier from a coding standpoint to do the random method.

Based on my 13 years of answering questions from gamblers, I can tell you that most slot players are not satisfied with the "it doesn't matter," or "it can happen different ways" answer. Same as for video poker. It is true that it doesn't matter mathematically, but the players truly want to know if they are they are in control of their own destiny. Trust me, I've been asked this question for 13 years. I would love to have somebody say, "I program these games for company X and here is how we do it..." The WMS quote seems to answer the question for WMS, but I'd love to hear from IGT, Ballys, Aristrocrat, or anybody else.

Also, as was mentioned, sometimes the games show you what was behind the unchosen prizes. I would call it lying if that information was not truthful. Maybe there isn't a regulation against it, but I would call it dishonest, at the least.

I have some knowledge of OLG's operations, but more from a 30,000 foot level.

Their slots are Class III and do not operate any differently than any other Class III game. If the player isn't experiencing good bonus rounds, the player has to remember that bonus rounds are highly volatile. As well, the payouts on these games might be set in general to be low. OLG's payback on slot machines is not atypical from other jurisdictions.

Quote: boymimbo

I have some knowledge of OLG's operations, but more from a 30,000 foot level.
Their slots are Class III and do not operate any differently than any other Class III game.

I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but just to be clear, Class III is an IGRA designation that's related to what's allowed/not-allowed in tribal locations without a state-tribal compact. Class III means anything that's not Class II or Class I, so unless a gaming machine is actually bingo-based, it's Class III even if it's centrally-determined. E.g. New York racino machines would still be Class III, but it doesn't matter because the racino isn't on tribal land, and it's state statutes and not the IGRA that controls there.

There have been some interesting court decisions on what is or isn't Class II. See Cabazon v NIGC: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=14878425114969219817

Quote: Wizard

I would love to have somebody say, "I program these games for company X and here is how we do it..." The WMS quote seems to answer the question for WMS, but I'd love to hear from IGT, Ballys, Aristrocrat, or anybody else.

You should be able to tell from the par sheets you have - if the bonus sections are based on probabilities of picking each value, vs just a distribution of final values, then you have your answer. For what it's worth, the Silicon Gaming bonuses were random picks, not predetermined final totals.

I was just perusing the OLG's website and came across a fact sheet. This is what one of the facts stated:

"Slot machines are run by computers with the game program and paytable data
stored on computer memory devices. Inside the machine, a random number
generator, which is part of the game’s program, is constantly coming up with
numbers at a rate of thousands per second, even when no one is playing. All of
these numbers have an equal likelihood of being selected at any one time to
determine game outcome. It is impossible to predict which number might be
generated at any one time. The payout percentage and actual awards are
predetermined for each game. On average, over a period of time, the payout
percentage balances out to the pre-set amount."

So this leads me to believe that all bonus rounds are predetermined. These machines are class III, and I am going to assume that ALL class III machines are all predermined world wide. I know industry insiders say that OUR CHOICES determine the bonus pay out, but I think they just want to create the illusion of control. Any thoughts?

I believe I have found my answer.

Slot bonus rounds are predetermined.

Quote: Bonita

I was just perusing the OLG's website and came across a fact sheet. This is what one of the facts stated:

"Slot machines are run by computers with the game program and paytable data
stored on computer memory devices. Inside the machine, a random number
generator, which is part of the game�s program, is constantly coming up with
numbers at a rate of thousands per second, even when no one is playing. All of
these numbers have an equal likelihood of being selected at any one time to
determine game outcome. It is impossible to predict which number might be
generated at any one time. The payout percentage and actual awards are
predetermined for each game. On average, over a period of time, the payout
percentage balances out to the pre-set amount."

So this leads me to believe that all bonus rounds are predetermined. These machines are class III, and I am going to assume that ALL class III machines are all predermined world wide. I know industry insiders say that OUR CHOICES determine the bonus pay out, but I think they just want to create the illusion of control. Any thoughts?

I don't agree that the text you posted indicates that bonus rounds are predetermined. I think it just means that the payout is set by the arrangement of the items on the reels and the way the bonus is hit and items selected, and over time the payout averages to this pre-set amount.

Quote: supergreg2

I don't agree that the text you posted indicates that bonus rounds are predetermined. I think it just means that the payout is set by the arrangement of the items on the reels and the way the bonus is hit and items selected, and over time the payout averages to this pre-set amount.

It can go either way, and there's no external way to tell unless you play for a really, really long time and gather enough samples to determine that the bonus values aren't what they would be if the pickfield values were evenly distributed. GLI-11 used to have language prohibiting predetermination of winners and losers, but removed it in version 1.1 of GLI-11:

4.3.1.c Removed the 'no predetermination of winners and losers' rule to allow for second screen/player interaction games.

This doesn't imply that all 2nd screen bonus games are predetermined (because they're not), just that predetermination is okay in a 2nd screen game. Even then, it's not clear whether they mean predetermined values behind pick field items, or predetermined total outcomes. All the games I've ever done have been based on predetermined pick field items. Doing it the other way is actually harder from an implementation standpoint, but it may be necessary if you don't have a skilled mathematician (ahem, ahem).

Gigantic bump here, but I would like a little more clarification of your opinion on this, MathExtremist. On pick-field bonuses that reveal the unpicked items at the end of the bonus, do you feel that they are generally not predetermined?

I bring this up because I have been having a discussion about bonus predeterminination on another forum regarding this game:
http://www.americangamingsystems.com/pdfs/Cut_Sheets/First_Family/Final_GoldenPanda_ClasIII_1.12.pdf

And this YouTube briefly shows the non-chosen picks revealed. Pausing in-between the 32 and 33-second mark will bring you to this fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eY-XQ9UneTA

BUT, this game is also available in Class II jurisdictions, where the bonus award MUST be predetermined, correct?
http://www.americangamingsystems.com/pdfs/Cut_Sheets/First_Family/Final_GoldenPanda_ClassII_1.12.pdf

The person playing this game is in a Class III jurisdiction. In your expert opinion, do you think the Class III version of the game would be randomly chosen for this pick-field bonus? Or since they also make the game for Class II gaming, both versions may be predetermined? And is the only way to be truly sure is to contact the company and/or magically find a PAR sheet?

In class III, when unselected amounts are revealed, you must have had an equal chance of getting that award. I this was not the case, the game could deceptively lure the player into playing more by showing large amounts that were never really available.

But, this can be done with a pre-determined outcome or a randomly selected outcome.

For instance, given three items, the game could randomly select which one you will win and then display that award regardless of where you pick, then place the remaining prizes behind the other two spots. The game could also randomly place awards behind each spot and let the player choose. Either way, the player has a 1/3 chance at each award, and has the illusion of control.

Class II is probably trickier, but I would hope that the remaining picks represent equally likely outcomes of the bonus games as a whole.

I read here about the PAR sheets...are they available to all>?

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?text=ontario+slots+payouts&language=en&searchTitle=Search+all+CanLII+Databases&path=/en/on/onipc/doc/2009/2009canlii16570/2009canlii16570.html

Also early on in Ontario Casino days somebody wanted some information on slots payouts like you can get at the Casinos for asking in the states here is what he got

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?text=ontario+slots+payouts&language=en&searchTitle=Search+all+CanLII+Databases&path=/en/on/onipc/doc/2000/2000canlii20931/2000canlii20931.html

The second link is depressing. My home state, Missouri, requires payout returns by denomination to be published online monthly by all casinos.

The first link is just the ruling that probably led to this paper.
http://www.nh.gov/gsc/calendar/documents/20091117_harrigan_dixon.pdf

To answer my particular question, I will probably be at the mercy of the company that made the slot machine. It's possible they may divulge that information voluntarily to me since it truly affects nothing, but I wouldn't count on it.

I do know of only one machine which literally says the picks for the progressive bonus round do not matter and it is predetermined. It is called Mystic Temple manufactured by Konami. I saw this at Rivers PBGH when I read the help screen, but have not checked it elsewhere. Just stating an unique exception to all the common knowledge.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I do know of only one machine which literally says the picks for the progressive bonus round do not matter and it is predetermined. It is called Mystic Temple manufactured by Konami. I saw this at Rivers PBGH when I read the help screen, but have not checked it elsewhere. Just stating an unique exception to all the common knowledge.

Interesting. Thanks for noting that. Since that statement is typically not in a rules screen, then it probably means the more common method is that they are not predetermined.

I found a problem on one machine when, for fun, I was playing 13p. The feature was a series of wins (which were all a multiple of 5p) and somehow I had won 78p. I raised this, for fun, with the casino and they found out that the feature was destined to pay me a multiple of my bet, so presumably was pre-determined once I had activated the bonus.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in previous posts, but I assumed the outcome of any spin OR feature was pre-determined by a RNG (Random Number Generator) as soon as the spin button is pressed? I read on a emulation forum (full of slot engineers and coders, so a reliable source) that there are literally hundreds of thousands of #numberID's that are generated which is then assigned a win value, irrespective if it was a line win or a feature win. So the example they provided was something like this:

#numberID	#winvalue
0000001	Nil
0000002	Nil
0000003	x3
0000004	Nil
0000005	x14
.	.
.	.
.	.
1265981	Nil
1265982	Nil
1265983	x3
1265984	x35 (feature)
1265985	Nil

Every time a player pressed the start/spin button, the machine would immediately generate an ID (from the RNG) and then display the win assigned to that ID's a #winvalue. So if the RNG chose 1265981 a no win would be displayed on the reels, similarly if 1265983 was generated then a win that equals x3 the stake would display on the reels. I know you guys are pro's so you probably knew this, but it was a big surprise for me when they also said a 'choose-em like feature' is also pre-determined in this way...no matter what icon you pick, no matter how many freespins you receive and no matter how many feature re-triggers you rejoiced to - it was all decided for you on your very first spin when you generated your ID...that the flashy features and animations are all just a graphical representation of your #winvalue.

Quote: matrix2021

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in previous posts, but I assumed the outcome of any spin OR feature was pre-determined by a RNG (Random Number Generator) as soon as the spin button is pressed? I read on a emulation forum (full of slot engineers and coders, so a reliable source) that there are literally hundreds of thousands of #numberID's that are generated which is then assigned a win value, irrespective if it was a line win or a feature win. So the example they provided was something like this:

#numberID	#winvalue
0000001	Nil
0000002	Nil
0000003	x3
0000004	Nil
0000005	x14
.	.
.	.
.	.
1265981	Nil
1265982	Nil
1265983	x3
1265984	x35 (feature)
1265985	Nil

Every time a player pressed the start/spin button, the machine would immediately generate an ID (from the RNG) and then display the win assigned to that ID's a #winvalue. So if the RNG chose 1265981 a no win would be displayed on the reels, similarly if 1265983 was generated then a win that equals x3 the stake would display on the reels. I know you guys are pro's so you probably knew this, but it was a big surprise for me when they also said a 'choose-em like feature' is also pre-determined in this way...no matter what icon you pick, no matter how many freespins you receive and no matter how many feature re-triggers you rejoiced to - it was all decided for you on your very first spin when you generated your ID...that the flashy features and animations are all just a graphical representation of your #winvalue.

This is generally incorrect. I don't have time now, so I'll expand on this later.

If, however, you are in Washington State, this is quite accurate.

Quote: matrix2021

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in previous posts, but I assumed the outcome of any spin OR feature was pre-determined by a RNG (Random Number Generator) as soon as the spin button is pressed? I read on a emulation forum (full of slot engineers and coders, so a reliable source) that there are literally hundreds of thousands of #numberID's that are generated which is then assigned a win value, irrespective if it was a line win or a feature win. So the example they provided was something like this:

#numberID	#winvalue
0000001	Nil
0000002	Nil
0000003	x3
0000004	Nil
0000005	x14
.	.
.	.
.	.
1265981	Nil
1265982	Nil
1265983	x3
1265984	x35 (feature)
1265985	Nil

Every time a player pressed the start/spin button, the machine would immediately generate an ID (from the RNG) and then display the win assigned to that ID's a #winvalue. So if the RNG chose 1265981 a no win would be displayed on the reels, similarly if 1265983 was generated then a win that equals x3 the stake would display on the reels. I know you guys are pro's so you probably knew this, but it was a big surprise for me when they also said a 'choose-em like feature' is also pre-determined in this way...no matter what icon you pick, no matter how many freespins you receive and no matter how many feature re-triggers you rejoiced to - it was all decided for you on your very first spin when you generated your ID...that the flashy features and animations are all just a graphical representation of your #winvalue.

I have worked on some games that do behave in this manner in Class III markets. The details tend to depend on the jurisidiction. There are definitely some clear advantages in implementing a base slot machine in this manner.