News at 5: Casinos Rob Customers

Not too crazy of a thread, but interesting none the less as we were discussing casino "mistakes" in another blackjack thread and they certainly extend far beyond the blackjack tables.

A friend of mine is new to playing slots and gave me this "weird" story when they went to play the other day. I get everyone's casino stories because my close friends know what I do... Anyways, my friend put $20 in to a machine, played 3 spins, and the digital machine froze up completely. Two slot techs and 30 minutes later they got the machine back up and running, but it was a complete machine reset, no credits. So my friend asks "What happened to my $20?" to which the slot tech responded "Oh sorry honey, it's gone." SADLY, I was not there with my friend or I would have ensured they got their money back and my friend didn't know what to do and ultimately did not fight it =/.

I don't care if you're new or not (plus there was more than 1 slot tech so someone must not have been that new) CLEARLY if your machine glitches and steals a patrons credits they would get those back. What if my friend had $1000 in the machine? Just gone? Obviously we here know that the proper move is to demand your money back and have the eyes in the sky confirm putting $20 in the machine and have them bring you $20.

Something similar happened to me before where I put $100 in to a slot machine and it never registered. I called a slot tech that didn't believe me, and told me the same BS about it just being "gone," but after 10 minutes he said someone upstairs confirmed I put it in the machine and he handed me $100.

Tough enough to win against the built in house edge, now you also have the casino just legitimately stealing money from patrons? Bad MGM, bad.

Feel free to share your "the casino robbed me" or "the casino tried to rob me" stories here. People don't seem to think this is a real thing, but man, it seems to happen a bit too often in my opinion. Like my friend above. On what planet does the slot tech think the customer should NOT get their $20 back? Makes me think they knew exactly what they were doing and were planning on tipping themselves $20...

Your friend was absolutely wronged.

I tend to believe that many casino employees are just naive and don't really know how things work or how they should work. Having worked in this industry for almost 30 years it is amazing what people think. I have known many slot directors and VP's of slots that have no clue how they work. It still amazes me in this day and age how superstitious these people are.

Decades ago I saw a guy rack up $600+ on an electronic table game, probably Blackjack (edit: it was a $1 crapless craps machine). Then a few suits descended on him and they shoed me away from the machine. They gave him a good talking to whatever it was. That's some serious intimidation.

I though this was going to be another house edge thread. Apparently, these customers got the wrong outcome. But, i dont think it would happen alot. Techs were compartmentalized. Got to speak to the right position to get the money back. I guess.

The casinos are probably increasing the edge to compensate for some downturns. I guess.

Quote: jjjoooggg

I though this was going to be another house edge thread. Apparently, these customers got screwed. But, i dont think it would happen alot. Techs were compartmentalized. Got to speak to the right position to get the money back. I guess.

The casinos are probably increasing the edge to compensate for some downturns. I guess.

Like most low paid employees it is hard to get people that take their job seriously and actually care to learn. The company that I worked for started slot techs at $12 an hour, There are teenagers starting fast food jobs that make more than that.

Quote: DRich

Like most low paid employees it is hard to get people that take their job seriously and actually care to learn. The company that I worked for started slot techs at $12 an hour, There are teenagers starting fast food jobs that make more than that.

Does it reward the ones that do their job?

Quote: billryan

Does it reward the ones that do their job?

Not very well by my standards.

Did your friend actually wait 30 minutes just to be told the money was "gone"?
If yes, that is a crazy story. Really, really, really poor customer service.

As you already know, machines don't eat money, well this one does:

Quote: Keeneone

machines don't eat money, well this one does:

Even then, you're buying entertainment.

Paying $20 for $3 of entertainment and a 30 minute delay seems harsh.

Quote: Romes

Anyways, my friend put $20 in to a machine, played 3 spins, and the digital machine froze up completely. Two slot techs and 30 minutes later they got the machine back up and running, but it was a complete machine reset, no credits. So my friend asks "What happened to my $20?" to which the slot tech responded "Oh sorry honey, it's gone." SADLY, I was not there with my friend or I would have ensured they got their money back and my friend didn't know what to do and ultimately did not fight it =/.

Something very similar happened to me at least as far as the machine glitch is concerned this past week in Vegas. It took a while for the Slot Tech to come over, but she was pleasant and professional. I told her I had some money still in the machine, and even though the machine was on TILT, the machine programming still knew exactly how much money I had left in the machine, she pulled it up on a little display on the screen and showed me.

I think I had a poor VP hand, and I don't even know if I had drawn to it or not, but they added $ 5 (my bet) to my remaining amount and brought that to me in cash. And I asked for a small dinner comp and they gave that to me too (like I said, I did have to wait ~20 min or so for the Slot Tech to come over). It wasn't a lot but enough for dinner and dessert.

When the waitress couldn't find the dinner comp on my player's card, I went out to the Player's Club desk and that guy came right over to the restaurant with me to make sure it was straightened out.

SO, there is a RIGHT way to deal with situations like this, and a WRONG way.

Quote: Romes

Two slot techs and 30 minutes later they got the machine back up and running, but it was a complete machine reset, no credits. So my friend asks "What happened to my $20?" to which the slot tech responded "Oh sorry honey, it's gone."

I would think that a machine that completely reset would have to be put out of service and reported to the gaming control board for, at the very least, accounting purposes. For older IGTs, a complete reset would also reset denomination and payback percentage to the machine's default settings.

It seems against procedure of a legit casino (and slot techs) to just get it fired up and carry on like nothing happened.

Nevada Gaming Board
702 486 2000
702 486 2020
This is the best way to train ignorant employees.

I don’t think casinos want Customers to be cheated they give out more comps than these incidents. It loses customers. One rogue technician decides to take on the world

I was playing Cleopatra Keno. 7 numbers picked. I was on spin 3 of the bonus (where all wins are doubled) when my machine locked up.

I waited 30 mins on a slot tech to come fix it. I was miserable and pissed. Not only because of the wait, but because I was only on SPIN 3 of a bonus.

Slot tech fixed it, and luckily my bonus resumed right where it left off. The very next draw I hit 7/7! Worth the wait!!!!!

Quote: mwalz9

...[in the middle of a feature]...machine locked up..Slot tech fixed it, and luckily my bonus resumed right where it left off....

I am surprised there aren't rules that the machine has to restore the original status (or give enough info to a slot tech).

(i) I've also had exactly the same, I think a power glitch; the machine just went back to where it was, the exact spin in the series, and carried on. I also had an issue once that the machine ran me a feature where all wins were a multiple of 5p but it somehow gave me 78p. That, and other quirks I've seen, is how I learnt the slot tech can see all the wins within a feature (I think it also keeps the reel position numbers).

(ii) In the UK there are strict regulations that any machine has to store the status (and hence outcome of spins) to a disk, so if there's a power failure or problem the machine can get back to the original position and/or the slot tech can see the recent history of plays, balances and money in/out. It also keeps history, so things like long term House Edge or Total Money In and Out can be checked.

(iii) When a machine did underpay me, although it was a documentation error and only a small difference, my local casino were very nice and gave me an ex gratia payment. I have no idea whether the company that leases the machines did change it as Covid came along.

Everyone tells me this story is either BS or a coincidence, and I'd be suspicious if it hadn't happened to me but I'll share it once again.
The old Sands casino in AC, around 1999, maybe 2000. I'm upstairs playing a wheel of fortune game that the bonus round awards a spin on a prize wheel. You can win 15-1000 credits on each spin and from experience, most spins win 40-125. So I hit the bonus and the wheel comes up but doesn't spin. I call an attendant over and he fusses with it but nothing happens. He calls a tech but it is a good twenty minutes before he comes. I'm fairly pissed about the delay but the tech seems like a nice guy and he calms me down a bit with his banter. He says it is going to take a few minutes to reset so I can go use the restroom and he'll watch the machine. I come back and the machine is all ready to go. He tells me he is sorry for the long delay but I should be happy now and leaves. I hit the button, the wheel spins and lands on 1,0000. This was my go-to machine in AC until the Sinatra machines came out and I never hit 1,000 before, or after. I'm sure it was all a coincidence.

Quote: jjjoooggg

I don’t think casinos want Customers to be cheated.....

I don't think casinos want Customers TO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE BEEN cheated.

Case in Point:

A few years ago, a local casino was giving away cars as a big promo. Straight-forward enough, earn 25 TC's and get one entry. So sure, what the heck, I'll play.

EXCEPT, buried in the fine-print of the Official Rules ( which just getting a copy of was an ordeal ) was a note that said something like "Additional promotional entries may be provided to select customers".

So I reached out and asked how many.

The response in writing was "up to 5,000" per person. I'm not a mathematician/statistician, but I know that the level playing field had just been seriously tilted in one direction AWAY from me. ( Unfortunately, I found all this out after the fact ).

State law said that all pertinent promotional information had to be included in their advertising. This bit about "stuffing the ballot box" wasn't.

State Gaming Commission didn't do anything, as far as I can tell. Except probably furnishing my name to the Casino ( I don't know if they did or not ).

I also contacted the Attorney General's office. When I followed-up, they said State Law prohibited them from telling me the result of the investigation, EVEN THOUGH I had initiated it.

Was I naive ? Maybe. But I shouldn't need to be a Lawyer to play at a Casino.

Anyway, I hope that at least this exercise in futility helped keep them slightly more honest in the future.

Of course I started asking for a written copy of the rules for their other promotions. Initially they would NOT provide them. I had to go back to the Gaming Commission to ask them to enforce STATE LAW that written rules for promotions had to be provided on request.

That seems to be the standard operating procedure. Premium cardholders earn raffle entries at a higher pace than regular players. The more value you provide to a casino, the more they give back. It sux when you go to a raffle with your seven entries and run into a VP pro who got 25,000 entries just off their card status but what the hey. Dropping ten million a year into machines has its privileges.

Quote: Romes

A friend of mine is new to playing slots and gave me this "weird" story when they went to play the other day. I get everyone's casino stories because my close friends know what I do... Anyways, my friend put $20 in to a machine, played 3 spins, and the digital machine froze up completely. Two slot techs and 30 minutes later they got the machine back up and running, but it was a complete machine reset, no credits. So my friend asks "What happened to my $20?" to which the slot tech responded "Oh sorry honey, it's gone." SADLY, I was not there with my friend or I would have ensured they got their money back and my friend didn't know what to do and ultimately did not fight it =/.

That is truly crazy a slot attendant would respond like that. Script I have found works well is along the lines of "you had no problem taking my money, but when it comes time to give me my money you won't do it, is that correct?" Something almost identical happened to me this year and there wasn't too much of an issue getting my money back. I told them about how much the ticket was for, showed them the last machine I cashed out of, and they paid, even rounding up to get a full dollar instead of coins.

A few examples I can think of:
Held on to chips too long and wasn't able to cash them in. Fortunately it was only a $15 lesson. Same thing with a slot ticket I held on to for only a few months. Again, fortunate it was only about $25.

Almost 20 years ago, first time ever playing blackjack in a casino (after playing on a computer and reading about the game for years), and the dealer hit their soft 17, which I had no idea could happen. Think it was only a $5 bet that lost because of it, and really only lost a few pennies in value, but it definitely felt like I was robbed.

A few times I have had to contact the sports book to fix a bet that was graded incorrectly. I am sure there are times I have missed it happening. This is probably one of the bigger robberies out there, especially now that sports betting is so much more widespread.

Had a place cut my points down to zero. Probably illegal to do in NV, because giving points is part of the bet so it must be honored, and I have heard there is precedence from gaming commission that agrees with that interpretation. I didn't care to fight it, because I was with other people, if I was by myself I definitely would have. Less than $100.

Quote: billryan

Premium cardholders earn raffle entries at a higher pace than regular players.

Right. And I don't care WHAT the rules are, as long as the description of the promotion is not presented fraudently. And the pertinent State Law, at least the way I read it, said that the advertising could not be misleading.

Saying entries are based on earning so many tier credits, BUT NOT saying that we ALSO stack the deck in favor of other people by not making them earn entries that way, is MORE than misleading.

Quote: ChumpChange

Decades ago I saw a guy rack up $600+ on an electronic table game, probably Blackjack (edit: it was a $1 crapless craps machine). Then a few suits descended on him and they shoed me away from the machine. They gave him a good talking to whatever it was. That's some serious intimidation.

Ha, I woulda tried to play dumb and stick around to hear what he was doing =P.

Quote: Keeneone

Did your friend actually wait 30 minutes just to be told the money was "gone"?
If yes, that is a crazy story. Really, really, really poor customer service.

Yes, because she still wanted to play and thought it would just be a reset machine then everything would go back to normal.

Quote: JohnnyQ

...SO, there is a RIGHT way to deal with situations like this, and a WRONG way...

EXACTLY, and sadly most of my own stories and the one's I've heard puts the casino yet again in the favor seat for ripping off their own customers =/.

Quote: billryan

...Premium cardholders earn raffle entries at a higher pace than regular players...

It's actually much worse than that. Sure, higher card levels earn entries faster, but I know for a FACT that casinos literally are allowed to just "give" entries and stuff the ballot box for their big players. I had a host confess to me before that one of the "huge whales" whenever he does actually come to a drawing they always give him 1,000,000 entries to try to ensure he wins. After all, the T's and C's say "we reserve to do whatever we want..." so I think they can get away with that =/. Like JQ said, they just don't want their customers to know they've been cheated.

Bleached

Quote: Romes

Yes, because she still wanted to play and thought it would just be a reset machine then everything would go back to normal.

EXACTLY, and sadly most of my own stories and the one's I've heard puts the casino yet again in the favor seat for ripping off their own customers =/.

It's actually much worse than that. Sure, higher card levels earn entries faster, but I know for a FACT that casinos literally are allowed to just "give" entries and stuff the ballot box for their big players. I had a host confess to me before that one of the "huge whales" whenever he does actually come to a drawing they always give him 1,000,000 entries to try to ensure he wins. After all, the T's and C's say "we reserve to do whatever we want..." so I think they can get away with that =/. Like JQ said, they just don't want their customers to know they've been cheated.

I don't think that is a secret as it is used as an incentive to get players to reach that status. I'd say they are guilty of puffery.

I had an incident similar to the OP.

Circa 2018 at an East Coast Casino.

For a few hours I had been roaming the slots. One of my preferred slot machines was offline with just a blue screen. I kept checking through the day.

Just after four pm (the time becomes important) I passed the slot and saw it was working finally. I assumed they had fixed it and sat down

I had a $400+ Tito in my hand so inserted it and heard the customary Doo Duh Dahhh musical notes to acknowledge the vouchers insertion when suddenly the screen went back to offline mode!

The slot attendant came over and said it was impossible I just put a voucher in as that machine had been offline all day. I said it somehow came back online long enough for me to put the voucher in.

He called the slot manager who called surveillance. Surveillance said they couldn't tell if I had inserted anything AND reiterated that the slot in question was down for hours and they doubted I had inserted anything.

I stood my ground and said I definitely put the voucher in and it was accepted. The slot manager told me to wait fifteen minutes while he summoned a higher slot tech.

The slot tech was one of those dressed in overalls guys who you only see taking the games apart or doing installs. He managed to pull up the history of the slot and pointed to the last entry.

It was for around 11:30 AM. Five hours earlier and some low amount, not my $400+ claim.

I was steeling myself for what looked like a $400+ loss and the slot manager was already entering his spiel about his hands being tied if there was no record of the transaction.

"But it doesn't make sense because I heard it registered when I inserted the voucher. It went 'Doo Duh Daah'."

I probably did a lousy musical interpretation but if you were familiar with those machines you would get it.

The slot tech then says there is one more thing he can check. The bill validator sensors record the transactions as well. But it's gonna take about twenty minutes for him to dig up that info.

The slot manager said to go ahead, he wanted to get to the bottom of it.

To his credit the slot manager stood with me conversing in small talk the whole twenty minutes. I had expected him to leave and come back later.

Finally the slot tech called us over. The screen was now black with ASCII? Text or some type of old school computer code. It wasn't human readable but it was organized into log lines.

The tech pointed to a log line where you could see a time entry (for 11:30 am) and a dollar amount.

"That's the entry we saw before"

Then he pointed to an additional log line with a time entry for around 4pm and a dollar amount of over $400. (It was exact but I can't remember now the amount and exact time)

Obviously there was the transaction I had made. But perhaps out of diligence, the slot manager asks "Is it for a Tito in or a Tito out?"

The slot tech looks for a moment at the log line and says" Well, I can't confirm what the transaction was for, just time and amount and that it occurred. However if he had cashed in and then cashed back out that would be two separate transactions and two separate loglines. I only see one here for this amount. And the prior event took place four and a half hours earlier so it seems it would only make sense that it was a Tito in."

I quickly added the information matched the amount I had been claiming all along as well.

So the slot manager walked me over to the cashier and had them pay me out. But I am quite certain had the slot tech not gone so deep into the programming I would have been out $400+!

Sanitized

Quote: TomG

Script I have found works well is along the lines of "you had no problem taking my money, but when it comes time to give me my money you won't do it, is that correct?"

DO story made me think of another line I keep in my back pocket that I've never had to take out, which is simply "I dispute this". In NV, from what I understand is that any disputes must go through gaming commission. And if there is any dispute, the casino must give the player contact information for anything under $500, and they must be the ones to contact gaming if the dispute is over $500. By making it as clear as possible that there is a dispute, either gaming commission gets involved, or the casino is not following the law.

-----

The biggest and most egregious 'robbery" I have seen has been making a bet on my account, having it go for approval, then the bet goes through at a different price. I'm pretty sure it is because the price on the line changes while waiting for approval (which can take up to 90 seconds). Happened three times to me and I am now often recording my screen, trying to catch it on film.

I'm playing single line 99.8% single line $10/hand VP on a multiplier day, have over 2k in credits on the machine. I get dealt 3 to royal and as I hold it the machine completely halts, with screen still viewable. I call service, a slot attendant comes over and writes my credits down as I explain to her I'm also in the middle of a round (and have a good hand), but she doesn't seem too interested in what I'm saying. I'm not very hopeful that they actually care that I have a good hand, and I don't care terribly much either since it's only a slightly positive hand. She comes back a few minutes later with a few techs, they shut down my machine and hand pay me the credits I have. I tell them over and over that I had an active hand for $10 that never finished (and it was a good hand) but they stonewall me and say it's just lost. I can't remember the exact nonsensical reasoning they gave but I wasn't having it. I kept insisting, they wouldn't budge, then I threatened to call the gaming commission. They had a brief huddle and then offered me $10 in free play, and I took it. Ignorant scumbags.

Darkoz:

Did the slot tech look for the paper TITO you put in?

If not, why not?

Seems to me it should be easy to find, probably on top, and in the amount you claimed.

Quote: MrV

Darkoz:

Did the slot tech look for the paper TITO you put in?

If not, why not?

Seems to me it should be easy to find, probably on top, and in the amount you claimed.

Yes, I remember asking for that solution.

They said they didn't have access to the Tito in. That was considered no different than the drop box at any slot table and only authorized security when arriving to remove the contents could examine that.

I suppose it makes sense. In all my years gambling I have never witnessed a casino employee access the actual voucher/cash in drop box in a slot. I have seen them retrieve crumpled cash that didn't make it into the slot collection but never seen them open the actual collection box itself.

Whether that's different from Casino to Casino I don't know.

I imagine if slot access to the drop boxes was that easy, the slot attendants would have a bit too much temptation for a little off the top.

Quote: TomG

DO story made me think of another line I keep in my back pocket that I've never had to take out, which is simply "I dispute this". In NV, from what I understand is that any disputes must go through gaming commission. And if there is any dispute, the casino must give the player contact information for anything under $500, and they must be the ones to contact gaming if the dispute is over $500. By making it as clear as possible that there is a dispute, either gaming commission gets involved, or the casino is not following the law.

Nevada Revised Statues 463.362 - Resolution of disputes
1. Whenever a patron and a licensee, or any person acting on behalf of or in conjunction with a licensee, have any dispute which cannot be resolved to the satisfaction of the patron and which involves:
(a) Alleged winnings, alleged losses or the award or distribution of cash, prizes, benefits, tickets or any other item or items in a game, tournament, contest, drawing, promotion or similar activity or event; or
(b) The manner in which a game, tournament, contest, drawing, promotion or similar activity or event is conducted,
the licensee is responsible for notifying the Board or patron in accordance with the provisions of subsection 2, regardless of whether the licensee is directly or indirectly involved in the dispute.
2. Whenever a dispute described in subsection 1 involves:
(a) At least $500, the licensee shall immediately notify the Board; or
(b) Less than $500, the licensee shall notify the patron of the patron’s right to request that the Board conduct an investigation.

I can tell you that I am not aware of a single casino where the slot tech has access to the cash can.

Quote: DRich

I can tell you that I am not aware of a single casino where the slot tech has access to the cash can.

The cash can requires a different key to access it. You can open the slot machine and see the cash can, but it's locked in place.

Quote: DRich

I can tell you that I am not aware of a single casino where the slot tech has access to the cash can.

Concur.
At least 3 layers of locks involved, and I expect one of those keys to be permanently chained inside the count room.