gamer1741
gamer1741
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January 10th, 2021 at 1:42:42 PM permalink
Hi,

I apologize if this question has been addressed somewhere or if the answer is obvious to you but it wasn't to me, so I wanted to try to understand it.

The game Mega Joker (NetEnt) is a skill based slot with a super mode requiring an optimal strategy bet. The RTP is listed in the docs as 99% RTP and the optimal strategy is given in the docs. Great! I appreciate the transparency.

I'm curious though if the 99% RTP is based on $ through on the initial base bet only or the $ through both on the base bet and the super mode top mode. In other words if I spin $10 for 10 spins, and hit the base slot for $60, which then goes into the super mode up top. If I spin that $40, and $20 and come out with $0 have I put through $100 on the machine or have I put $160 through on the machine?

This is only really relevant when trying to calculate the RTP. Is my theoretical loss now $1.60 or is it $1? The difference matters of course!

I would think it would behave like a bonus round on a slot machine which is factored into the RTP, but because you can collect it at any time (even though you should not for maximum return) makes me wonder whether the spins up top are being counted by netent when calculating the RTP

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and hopefully some science/math.
CrystalMath
CrystalMath 
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gamer1741
January 10th, 2021 at 6:23:31 PM permalink
Although I don't entirely understand the betting, with slots, the RTP is the total win/total bet. In your case, total bet = $160.
I heart Crystal Math.
gamer1741
gamer1741
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January 10th, 2021 at 7:06:34 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Although I don't entirely understand the betting, with slots, the RTP is the total win/total bet. In your case, total bet = $160.



Thank you. Yeah that's the point its not a normal bet. You don't actually win the money from the top spins until you hit collect. I don't think this is really a RTP calculation question its more of what did netent use when it quotted its RTP? is it using only the base bet or the bets from the bonus reels? In practice, it's a lot of through $$ on those top reels, so they do count as through then the actual RTP of the machine is going to be more like 97% or less.

Anyone have experience with Mega Joker that may know more?
DRich
DRich
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gamer1741
January 10th, 2021 at 7:50:45 PM permalink
The RTP is all money paid divided by all money played. It doesn't matter who plays it.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
gamer1741
gamer1741
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January 10th, 2021 at 9:12:01 PM permalink
Thank you,

Yes I appreciate the formula. the question is whether the money is considered an extra bet or a bonus round play, as it isn't paid out to the player. Is it played then or is part of a special bonus round that is not played? since it is not payed.
DRich
DRich
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gamer1741
January 11th, 2021 at 7:36:39 AM permalink
Quote: gamer1741

Thank you,

Yes I appreciate the formula. the question is whether the money is considered an extra bet or a bonus round play, as it isn't paid out to the player. Is it played then or is part of a special bonus round that is not played? since it is not payed.



What do you mean when you say it is not paid? My assumption is that it is paid to some player at some point.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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gamer1741
January 11th, 2021 at 8:08:26 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

The RTP is all money paid divided by all money played. It doesn't matter who plays it.

On some fruit machines in the UK you can "gamble" your wins, simple ones allow you to double or lose regular wins. My educated guess would be the base game determines the RTP (unless it was always better to "gamble"). However the ones I've seen have a fair gamble, i.e. it really is 50/50 whether you double up or not.

I've also seen the return within a feature change so the RTP remains at certain value(s) depending on the number of lines being played.

What confuses me here is the payouts for wagering 20 and 40 aren't exactly the same, thus it might be you're better off not gambling any 20 wins, and the 40 ones are either true or slightly over 100%. There was a poker game where you were better off playing "with feature", so this might be the same.


The RTP should be how much is returned assuming the player makes the best decisions at all times. I can imagine that sometimes the best option is to gamble your wins, in which case you would be swapping your 40s (say) for the occasional larger payout.

It would be interesting to see the
Quote: gamer1741

...optimal strategy given in the docs...

.
gamer1741
gamer1741
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January 11th, 2021 at 8:43:19 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

On some fruit machines in the UK you can "gamble" your wins, simple ones allow you to double or lose regular wins. My educated guess would be the base game determines the RTP (unless it was always better to "gamble"). However the ones I've seen have a fair gamble, i.e. it really is 50/50 whether you double up or not.

I've also seen the return within a feature change so the RTP remains at certain value(s) depending on the number of lines being played.

What confuses me here is the payouts for wagering 20 and 40 aren't exactly the same, thus it might be you're better off not gambling any 20 wins, and the 40 ones are either true or slightly over 100%. There was a poker game where you were better off playing "with feature", so this might be the same.


The RTP should be how much is returned assuming the player makes the best decisions at all times. I can imagine that sometimes the best option is to gamble your wins, in which case you would be swapping your 40s (say) for the occasional larger payout.

It would be interesting to see the .



True, another good example is the double up feature of some video pokers, these are coin flips so they don't change the RTP because it is a 50/50% with no house edge. So they are easy to calculate. In many casinos they simply rate $ through as points so these are actually great to play if you are trying to grind loyalty points because you effectively lower your house edge from say 0.5% on Jacks or Better to a lower value because you can count these bets at 0% house edge (RTP 100%) towards points. However, sadly this slot is more complicated and its not really a double up and it does effect your RTP according to the docs. But again I am only wondering if the RTP is based on only the base bet or the top line super meter bonus bets too and the difference is substantial to $ I put through the machine.

The optimal strategy is given in the docs, There aren't any great webpages detailing too much, but here is one here:
edit: link above doesn't seem to be showing, you may have to google 'mega joker optimal strategy' but it will come up easily.

The problem I'm trying to solve here is whether the RTP netent lists is only based on the base bet (as it should be) because RTP is defined that way. But call me crazy I don't entirely trust them so I'm looking for other experience/verification here.

Let me give an example of gameplay I encountered the other day. The machine I'm playing is an online slot with bets between $1 and $10 maximum. You never bet <$10 because it never goes into supermeter mode if you don't bet max and hence your return is listed as <90% according to the docs for not doing so. So you always bet $10 basically.

I spun the base machine 15 times at $10 ($150 through) before I hit a $100 hit. This is NOT awarded to the player. Instead it gets put into the supermeter machine up top (see the graphic in the above link). You then have the option to collect immediately (and hence it is paid), or spin it at either $20, $40, $100 or $200 on the top machine. Optimal strategy says you should bet $100 in this situation, so I did. I got a joker, so I got another $100 in the supermeter mode (again not paid). So I spun again for $100 and did that 3 times, then I landed a larger hit I forget the amount but over $1000. In this case the optimal strategy says to bet $20 until you either fall down to $400 or play up to $1600 or more. I spun 60 times on the $20 bet up top and finally got to $1800, so I hit collect.

Now in that entire interaction above, I only spun the base machine 15 times at $10 for $150 through or $1.5 theo spent. I certainly came out ahead at this point. But I also spun the supermeter mode through $1500. So is my theo spent $1.5 or is it $16.50? Netent is unclear on this point because they don't separate the return to player for the supermeter mode vs. the regular mode except to say that if you ignore super meter mode it is >10% house edge or <90% RTP which is bad. So clearly super meter mode is advantageous.

Does this imply that the RTP should only be on the base bet? I guess given the optimal strategy which encourages a lot of 'spinning' in super meter mode it most likely wouldn't be anything but a positive expectation ? I am not sure if that argument is sound though.

Again appreciate the advice and thoughts.

Thoughts?
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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January 11th, 2021 at 9:44:22 AM permalink
Quote: gamer1741

...https://progressiveslot.info/2019/11/18/mega-joker-slot/ ...

It sounds as if you're always better off gambling on the top set of reels if you get a win on the lower ones. Also that the payback on 100 is better than 40 is better than 20, so given a choice you go for the higher values. The exception is if you have (say) 120, then you're going to spin 100 and 20, so do the 20 first (in case you win a large value). Similarly with 60, do the 20 first. I'm then guessing you keep spinning until you get to any total of 1600 or more.

The RTP of 99% will include this (elsewhere suggests if you don't gamble you're only getting about 90% return.)

EDIT: I found a game of it here and was lucky on an early spin.
gamer1741
gamer1741
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January 12th, 2021 at 8:04:28 AM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

It sounds as if you're always better off gambling on the top set of reels if you get a win on the lower ones. Also that the payback on 100 is better than 40 is better than 20, so given a choice you go for the higher values. The exception is if you have (say) 120, then you're going to spin 100 and 20, so do the 20 first (in case you win a large value). Similarly with 60, do the 20 first. I'm then guessing you keep spinning until you get to any total of 1600 or more.

The RTP of 99% will include this (elsewhere suggests if you don't gamble you're only getting about 90% return.)

EDIT: I found a game of it here and was lucky on an early spin.
g]



Thanks my friend. I agree, given the nature of the strategy and the fact that the RTP is raised by spinning on the top reels. I'm guessing that the top reels are positive expectation and therefore it must follow that the RTP of 99% is based on the bottom reels. I don't know if this logical argument makes sense yet, still mulling it over in my mind.

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