DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
• Posts: 7359
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August 21st, 2019 at 8:19:04 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I think this is my issue with this whole thing. It doesnt seem random at all to me. What is the differentiating factor of class ii and class iii VLT... the underlying "game"? class ii is bingo and class iii is... a RNG?

They all are still RNG. The difference is just where the RNG is. In Class II and Central Determination the RNG is at the server. In traditional Class III the RNG is at the slot machine,
Order from chaos
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
• Posts: 1425
August 21st, 2019 at 8:36:51 AM permalink
So what we are at is that there are machines that look like slot machines, but are called video lottery terminals. These video lottery terminals are technically preprogrammed for a specific amount of wins within a specified total amount of plays. These can be class 2 or class 3, which are determined by the placement of the RNG.

Lets say as of this point we focus on class 3 VLT.

are "result", aka the actual order and symbols generated utilizing a RNG? or is the RNG used for one single number correlating to an index of a "pool"

and from what i understand about the central determination is that IF a number that is winning is generated and its not in the pool of winners, they can discard the result and generate a new one until it is a valid result within the pool?
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
• Posts: 8097
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August 21st, 2019 at 8:44:24 AM permalink
Years ago I claimed to be able to predict when bonus rounds were coming.

I primarily played vlt at the time. As I branched out to other markets this ability was diminished if not non-existent.

With my current knowledge of how VLT works and my millions of slot pulls at VLT I think that is why I am able to predict with more accuracy at the VLT.

I still dont believe it can overcome house edge and never claimed that. But people on here were real angry at my assertions

To put it another way, VLTs are cyclical due to their nature. It is possible to see when you are in a cycle just based on prior experience. Enough for me to decide when to quit a vlt or keep going

(The whole seat switching notion was derided here too but again I am referring to vlt controlled by a central server using that drum notion described above)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
• Posts: 7359
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August 21st, 2019 at 9:09:18 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Lets say as of this point we focus on class 3 VLT.

are "result", aka the actual order and symbols generated utilizing a RNG? or is the RNG used for one single number correlating to an index of a "pool"

and from what i understand about the central determination is that IF a number that is winning is generated and its not in the pool of winners, they can discard the result and generate a new one until it is a valid result within the pool?

Understand that Class III VLT can be centrally determined or not. Again, the VLT designation is just meant to designate that the lottery commission is in charge of the machines.

I have never seen a central determination system where a selected outcome is thrown away. The ones I have worked with only have the possible winning amounts in the drum.
Order from chaos
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
• Posts: 1425
August 21st, 2019 at 9:37:58 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Understand that Class III VLT can be centrally determined or not. Again, the VLT designation is just meant to designate that the lottery commission is in charge of the machines.

I have never seen a central determination system where a selected outcome is thrown away. The ones I have worked with only have the possible winning amounts in the drum.

what happens when a machine generates a number or result that is not within the "drum" of results, or if that question is not possible to answer then how do you limit the outcomes of the machine to generate only the specified types of results?

If the machine is a class 3 and it has a RNG, but is still centrally determined by the lottery commission or whoever, then why do they need both RNG in machine and centrally determined results?
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
• Posts: 7359
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August 21st, 2019 at 9:54:55 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

what happens when a machine generates a number or result that is not within the "drum" of results, or if that question is not possible to answer then how do you limit the outcomes of the machine to generate only the specified types of results?

If the machine is a class 3 and it has a RNG, but is still centrally determined by the lottery commission or whoever, then why do they need both RNG in machine and centrally determined results?

The systems I worked on we only put winning values in the drum that correspond to the paytable.

If a slot machine had possible payouts of 0, 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 75, 150, and 1000 then only those numbers would be in the drum.

As far as two RNG's, most manufacturers try to make machines that will work in multiple jurisdictions. There would be an option in the software to say use central determination or local RNG. No point in making two separate machines when you can just produce one with a software option to say which to use,
Order from chaos
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
• Posts: 1425
August 21st, 2019 at 10:05:25 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

The systems I worked on we only put winning values in the drum that correspond to the paytable.

If a slot machine had possible payouts of 0, 1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 75, 150, and 1000 then only those numbers would be in the drum.

As far as two RNG's, most manufacturers try to make machines that will work in multiple jurisdictions. There would be an option in the software to say use central determination or local RNG. No point in making two separate machines when you can just produce one with a software option to say which to use,

All of this is making sense thank you so much. So in PA we have been getting these things called "PA Skill" which claim to be skill slots, yet there is also some confusion on my part about why they call them VLTs sometimes?
playr4reel
Joined: Sep 22, 2020
• Posts: 2
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September 23rd, 2020 at 2:00:38 AM permalink
I know this thread is over a year old but I thought I would chime in and give my two cents. PA slots are the same as WV slots where I live. They are Class III VLT's that are not centrally determined. The reason they are called VLT's is because the State Lottery Commission is in charge of gaming and slots. However, they are connected to a central server but only for accounting and financial reporting. I guess the question you have to ask yourself is how much you trust the "only for accounting and financial reporting". A few months ago I was playing a slot at Wheeling Island Casino and it was hitting pretty good when all of a sudden it went off line. A message came across the machine asking the technician to call Charleston, which is where the WV Gaming board is headquartered. The slot tech came over and apologized and said he had to call Charleston and have them reset the machine and it would be about 5 minutes. I moved on to another slot and didn't look back.....lol.
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
• Posts: 19249
September 23rd, 2020 at 3:09:44 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Years ago I claimed to be able to predict when bonus rounds were coming.

I primarily played vlt at the time. As I branched out to other markets this ability was diminished if not non-existent.

With my current knowledge of how VLT works and my millions of slot pulls at VLT I think that is why I am able to predict with more accuracy at the VLT.

I still don't believe it can overcome house edge and never claimed that. But people on here were real angry at my assertions

To put it another way, VLTs are cyclical due to their nature. It is possible to see when you are in a cycle just based on prior experience. Enough for me to decide when to quit a vlt or keep going

(The whole seat switching notion was derided here too but again I am referring to vlt controlled by a central server using that drum notion described above)

Nobody was angry, it just didn't/ doesn't make any sense. IF, you can predict when a bonus round is coming (AND YOU CAN'T since it still uses a RNG, unless it's some special tpe of machine with a gimmick like Scarabs) there's an opportunity to make a boatload of money even if you haven't figured out how to exploit it.

Re-read your original statement and the following conversation. You backtracked somewhat and left it ambiguous, but it was obvious what you were trying to have us think until you were questioned(this is more "I make 20k a week" BS). It's simple to prove, just tell us the name of the machines and go from there. You won't/can't because it would be debunkable at that point. You should be able to tell us exactly why it's not explotable. It's confermation bias. " Enough for me to decide when to quit a vlt or keep going" How do you know what would have happened if you would have kept going if you quit?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
• Posts: 8097
September 23rd, 2020 at 3:57:13 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Nobody was angry, it just didn't/ doesn't make any sense. IF, you can predict when a bonus round is coming (AND YOU CAN'T since it still uses a RNG, unless it's some special tpe of machine with a gimmick like Scarabs) there's an opportunity to make a boatload of money even if you haven't figured out how to exploit it.

Re-read your original statement and the following conversation. You backtracked somewhat and left it ambiguous, but it was obvious what you were trying to have us think until you were questioned(this is more "I make 20k a week" BS). It's simple to prove, just tell us the name of the machines and go from there. You won't/can't because it would be debunkable at that point. You should be able to tell us exactly why it's not explotable. It's confermation bias. " Enough for me to decide when to quit a vlt or keep going" How do you know what would have happened if you would have kept going if you quit?

Wait!

You think I was claiming to know THE VERY NEXT SPIN a bonus was coming like the 9th spin of Scarab?

I never said diddly about being able to predict THE VERY NEXT SPIN

And when I say cycles it's definitely not to within EXACTLY TEN SPINS PER SCARAB.

Stop extrapolating things people are not saying. For example when I say I make \$20,000 a week (going on twelve weeks now BTW) that I mean all 52 weeks of the year. If I made a million a year I would just say so.

Again, your extrapolation is what is making you unable to comprehend my claims.

Interestingly, you ignore what doesn't suit you. I said my bonus prediction is based on millions of spins at vlt's. You claim you can debunk that? You really are going to fly to NYC and play millions of spins to debunk something that doesn't best the house edge?

I am going to a bit of extrapolation on you now.

I make more money than you and you just can't bear the fact some guy with less than a decade of experience can do it.

Am I correct? Or did I extrapolate too much (see how that works)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee