tracking best day/time to play slots

Quote: weaselman

If they wanted to attract the players, wouldn't it make more sense to advertise the generous payout rather than keep it a secret?

In general, I don't quite understand how loosening the games on low traffic days will help the casino, unless they make it known to the public. I kinda take the lack of that advertising as an indirect confirmation of Wizard's point, that they don't do this as a rule, because they either see it as too cumbersome or just not good for the business.

Sure, they could just leak the info discreetly, so that people, who hear the rumor think they'd just been let in on a huge secret, and run to the casino ... But in that case, they also don't have to actually increase the payout - they just need to allude that they are going to ...

It would be a delicate balancing act in this case. Since the foot traffic is already heavy in this area (it's a wide corridor connecting the main casino floor and the hotel towers), I would imagine they don't want the area jammed, but they evidently decided to have that area generating SOME revenue. Since a lot of the buzz generated by Monopoly machines is created by the bonus game(s), I think the idea was to have people stop and look, if only briefly, and get interested in the game in general, or possibly slots in general. Someone who stops and watches for even a few seconds will be that much more interested in slots--not even necessarily THOSE slots. I also don't think it would be all that productive to advertise that THESE slots (only twelve of them) had a high payback percentage, because that would carry with it the implication that all the other slots were worse.

Quote: Wizard

I defer to your expertise on this. So correct me where I'm wrong, but I thought that it was standard on "participation games" that the return is set close to 88%. For those who don't know, participation games are ones where the casino and the slot maker share in the revenue. They generally have some kind of branded theme and very fancy signage and machines. I'm sure the brand being promoted gets a cut too. I was quoted saying as much in a LV Sun article about a year about, on the Sex and the City slot machine, and I heard IGT got very mad. The next week the Sun ran a puff piece praising slots.

It's sometimes higher than 88%, and as you imply, that is a function of the percentage of revenues and/or up front licensing costs associated with the machine's "theme". It's also, however, a function of the casino's overall slot strategy. Fiesta Rancho and Santa Fe, before they were eaten by Stations, had very aggressive placement and marketing of their themed slots---I marveled at how much labor they would expend moving other slots around to give the new slots the most prominent positions. Arizona Charlie's had a similar approach. I remember one game there--"Jumble"--- that was a lot of fun to play, and I swear those machines were programmed to return 100% or better at first--I had eight straight winning sessions on them. Then, a month later, they were terrible. I suspect that that was when the machines got dialed back to that 88% you mentioned.

So since North Vegas and the Boulder Strip consistently report higher slot returns (lower house %) than not only the rest of Las Vegas, but the rest of the country, they might be settling for a 90% or 92% return (rather than 88%) on the participation slots---being content to make less $$$, in order to stay competitive.

Getting back on topic, I got an answer to my question to the original question from Nick Dillon, Executive Vice President/Assistant General Manager at the Barona casino in San Diego County. The emphasis added was mine. It should be noted that SBG stands for Server Based Gaming.

Quote: Nick Dillon

The concern with SBG games is that the manufacturers and most casinos are looking at it mostly from a cost savings (less slot techs/labor needed to convert games, etc) perspective. At Barona, we really only want it if it proves a true value to the player. We have approximately 80 units on the floor that we began testing a couple of years ago. We are not yet at the point where we can say there is a true benefit to the player. We have tested many aspects of these games but have never raised/lowered the hold based on time of day, day of week, etc. We have, however, tested some other things. One is changing the minimum denom based on day of week (penny during the week moved to nickel on the weekend, for example). The idea being the same as table games whereby the denom (table minimum bet) moves higher when demand is peaking. This maximizes revenue. However, we found that was not the case with our test (likely because tables are limited and full capacity during the increase, but slots generally are not, and because a “penny” player can actually be a “dollar” player regardless of what min denom he is playing). We found more dismay from guests that were used to finding their preferred game/denom and that it was now changed. We also tested changing only the default denom from penny to nickel. This is the denom that shows on screen when the game is idle. The majority of players may not be aware of multi-denom and play the default the majority of time. Again, we found no real difference in revenue.

As evidenced by our Loose Troop and Manufacturers Best programs, best blackjack rules, loosest video poker, no ATM fees, etc. we truly believe the player deserves the best gamble they can get. We feel that providing the longest play time for the dollar is the best strategy we can employ. There is no need to play with hold percentages and adjusting them 1-3 points either way for a day or two. Of course, a strip property may feel differently as they only have a limited amount of time to win the money.

We are hopeful that we can help push the manufacturers to continue to develop SBG in favor of the player. We are Hopeful that a player can put his player card in and his preferred games, denoms, etc will appear for his enjoyment at whatever device he sits. There are so many opportunities for this to be a great product for the player, which we believe will be good for our casino and the industry. If cost savings also come, great, but that should not be the main focus of a product like this.

Quote: Wizard

At Barona, we really only want it if it proves a true value to the player.

Barona's strategy is interesting. There's no denying their assertion that they provide the best gambling value in the San Diego area. However, they don't need to do much to accomplish that--most of the San Diego area casinos are horrible. Barona, because it is VERY geographically isolated and hard to get to, made the decision to offer better games, better promos, and good food values, in order to entice players out on that winding mountain road that leads there. The only other casino that has a similar approach is the even more remote and isolated Valley View--the more accessible Viejas, Sycuan, Pauma, etc. are complete and utter ripoffs. Harrah's Rincon is between Barona and Valley View, and thus the second most isolated casino in the area--but Harrah's uses the business model that says everyone wants to come to a HARRAHS property. It appears like a giant glowing mirage as you crest the mountain pass into the Rincon valley. Then you go inside and find a very very nice hotel, expensive food, and the tightest games in the universe.

I somehow doubt that Barona's business decisions are solely based on enhancing player happiness. However, they do seem to know what people like. I was there a few months ago when they were giving away $1000 every hour to players seated at machines--and the place was PACKED. Even though the EV of the promotion to any one player was about 50 cents an hour, everybody was hoping--and staying, and playing. I'll bet hourly revenue increased by $10,000 in return for that $1000 they gave away.

Barona's video poker is 90% crap, but they do have a couple of banks of good machines. Their slot club is crap-to-fair, but it's better than the other area slot clubs. I would definitely say that it is the choice you should make if you find yourself in the area and want to gamble. MY choice if I find myself in the area is to go hang out on the beach, but, hey, that's just me.

I kind of agree with Dillon's point which is,

Quote: Bill Dillon

There is no need to play with hold percentages and adjusting them 1-3 points either way for a day or two. Of course, a strip property may feel differently as they only have a limited amount of time to win the money.

You can make a rough calculation with server based gaming. Assume that 50 percent of your slot action is on the weekend, and that you, the slot operator decide to change the payouts down 3 percent across the board on the weekend, so that a machine that normally pays 95 percent now pays 92 percent.

According to the September gaming figures for the strip casinos earning over $1M (41 operators), doing this under these assumptions would bring in an addition 19.2 percent of slot gaming win (revenue), overall. That might be worth something. Even an average of a 1 percent change would increase slot revenue by 5.5 percent which is a decent jump.

If you could see Barona upping the denomination (even the default) on weekends, why not push back the payout? If you change the minimum denomination on a Las Vegas machine, does that require paperwork? Or only if you change the payout percentage?

How many more millions would they make if they kept going, and lowered all the slots from 95% to 0.1% the entire week?

Quote: Wizard

How many more millions would they make if they kept going, and lowered all the slots from 95% to 0.1% the entire week?

Me and the Mrs have sat down at some of those 0.1% machines. They're a bitch.

Quote: boymimbo

If you change the minimum denomination on a Las Vegas machine, does that require paperwork? Or only if you change the payout percentage?

As I understand it, every change to a "control program" requires documentation. That's why so many games are multi-denom. But with SBG, "paperwork" is just an electronic log message to a server somewhere.

Quote: Wizard

How many more millions would they make if they kept going, and lowered all the slots from 95% to 0.1% the entire week?

I think Nevada law states that the minimum payback on any slot is 75 percent, so I guess they'd be breaking the law. But given that I have no idea what the payback is on a slot machine when I sit down an play it, I don't know if I am sitting at a 98 percent game or a 75 percent game. Which sucks.

Quote: boymimbo

I think Nevada law states that the minimum payback on any slot is 75 percent.

That's true, but the Barona is in California. It also misses my point that maybe lowering the return gives the casino a bigger slice of a smaller pie.

I think that my point that moving the percentages a couple of points one way or another would make a difference, and it may not be noticeable to the player. Barona's players were savvy enough to recognize a denomination change for their slots (duh!). But how could they possibly recognize an RNG change?

That said, the server based software represents a large capital investment and though you can change payouts on the fly, there is no real reason to do so. You can maximize revenue in other ways - through promotions, slot placements, and more attractive machines. And to paraphrase the slot director, the server based software can be used to provide promotions to the player which hopefully will make them stay in the casino longer and spend more natually. After all, getting 5 percent more people to play your machines and in your casinos has a lot more value than a few percent on the weekend.

In addition, using the server based software to decrease revenue a few points simply cheats the consumer, and though it might not be detectable at first, it might be detectable over time.

Quote: boymimbo

I think that my point that moving the percentages a couple of points one way or another would make a difference, and it may not be noticeable to the player. Barona's players were savvy enough to recognize a denomination change for their slots (duh!). But how could they possibly recognize an RNG change?

In my experience, a frequent slot player can tell the difference between two RTP models of the same game at about 2% difference. Underneath that, it gets harder, especially if the models are done well -- but on the other hand most games don't have models so close together anyway. An infrequent slot player doesn't know or can't tell, and probably doesn't care anyway.

Quote: boymimbo

In addition, using the server based software to decrease revenue a few points simply cheats the consumer

Why? How about using the software to increase the return temporarily? Certainly, you would not call that cheating. But if so, then returning the parameters back to their original values after a while can't be cheating either.
I mean, suppose, on a Thursday, they decide to make the machines pay out more in an attempt to attract customers on a low traffic day, and then on Friday, they change it back to where it was before. I don't see anything wrong with that morally, even though, like I said before, I don't quite understand how it could be good for business, unless they advertise the "high-return Thursday" to the public as a promotion.

Maybe if a casino lowered its return by 3 points for just one day, nobody would catch on. However, when the player loses, he is less likely to return, regardless of the reason. For casinos with a lot of repeat clientele, like the Barona, it is critical to keep the customers happy. The idea is you want to gently fleece the sheep, not slaughter it. Lowering the return 3 points would be get the blade closer to the skin, and would knick some of the sheep. On other hand, raise the return, and you don't get enough wool. There is some optimal point to set the sheers at, and it doesn't matter what day of the week it is.

IMHO, the Barona has exactly the right philosophy. Offer the players a good time, competitive odds, and they will return. A valuable player is a happy player.

Quote: Wizard

There is some optimal point to set the sheers at, and it doesn't matter what day of the week it is.

I think that assumes that the sheep (per this analogy) are identical every day of the week, or at every hour of the day. We know that's not true. Electricity costs more during peak hours than off-hours, so why shouldn't casino games?

Quote: MathExtremist

Electricity costs more during peak hours than off-hours, so why shouldn't casino games?

Don't know for sure about where you live, but I suspect that the electric rates (and how they vary by hour) are published. Changing slot payouts might be OK, too, so long as the payouts were clear to those playing the game, which they are not.

Quote: Doc

Don't know for sure about where you live, but I suspect that the electric rates (and how they vary by hour) are published. Changing slot payouts might be OK, too, so long as the payouts were clear to those playing the game, which they are not.

That's a really good point. I wonder if something like that will make it into regulations...

Quote: MathExtremist

I think that assumes that the sheep (per this analogy) are identical every day of the week, or at every hour of the day. We know that's not true. Electricity costs more during peak hours than off-hours, so why shouldn't casino games?

But the machines are on 24 hours a day. They don't use much additional electricity because they are being played.

I think the guy from Barona got it "right on"...Think about most of the changes over the years in slot technology...bill validator...you don't have to shove coins into the machine...value to the customer....TITO...you don't have to lug coins around after cashing out..value to the customer...SBG has really no value to the customer and infact gives us Slot Directors the power to do what everyone always thought we could do...pull the switch and make the machine looser/tighter...
Also there isn't a pricing model out there for SBG...IGT & WMS are in one camp developing together...Bally & Aristocrat are in another...so now you have to get 2 back of the house systems..I think it'll be years before SBG is on alot of casino floors...what would have to happen is to have an "open architecture" so all manufacturers can write programs to be used on ONE SERVER ...

What timezone?

Does anyone know what the Danish bid strategy is? It is not completely clear why this rate strategy was named after Denmart, but it can be assumed that the system originated in the Danish state. Perhaps, its author simply did not want fame, because he showed patriotism.

Quote: fertooso

Does anyone know what the Danish bid strategy is? It is not completely clear why this rate strategy was named after Denmart, but it can be assumed that the system originated in the Danish state. Perhaps, its author simply did not want fame, because he showed patriotism.

The principle of the Danish betting strategy resembles the well-known strategy of Martingale, but the amount of bets in this case is not doubled every time, but grows in an arithmetic progression, which is much safer for a bankroll. But at the same time, after each losing bet, the player needs to do the next with a larger factor. Different strategies that help you play can be read on the portal about gambling. [edit] Spam link deleted by Moderator[/edit]

Well. There's a surprise. Two members joining on the same day and with the same interests and oh... the same internet connection. I was going to welcome them to the forum. Then I saw the link.

Bye Bye guys. Thank's for your input.

Never heard about this strategy before, sounds rather interesting. But I think it is just impossible to make any gambling predictions, especially when it comes to online slots, otherwise all the mathematicians would become billionaries.

Quote: fertooso

Does anyone know what the Danish bid strategy is? It is not completely clear why this rate strategy was named after Denmart, but it can be assumed that the system originated in the Danish state. Perhaps, its author simply did not want fame, because he showed patriotism.

Never heard about this strategy before, sounds rather interesting. But I think it is just impossible to make any gambling predictions, especially when it comes to online slots , otherwise all the mathematicians would become billionaries.

Quote: ninabaines5

Never heard about this strategy before, sounds rather interesting. But I think it is just impossible to make any gambling predictions, especially when it comes to online slots , otherwise all the mathematicians would become billionaries.

Not so sure, in my experience there very few mathematicians that excel at getting money from casinos. Obviously, there are some that really crush it, especially the ones that are creative.

Any sites dedicated to photos of Denmart shoppers?

Hey there,

This is a very interesting subject and something I've been tracking for a long time.

My wife and I have had over 60 trips to Vegas, and we sometimes spend 12+ hours a day playing, so I notice the changes in the casinos. I’ve also been to casinos in other states and seen similar patterns where certain times of the day are better than others.

We just returned from Vegas this past weekend. We were playing in the HL room from around 9 p.m. to 1 a.m. It was a Sunday night on a holiday weekend. The slots were hot, and there were many jackpots going out, including 4 we picked up.

Between 11 p.m. and 12 a.m., the slot attendants were running around, and people were waiting for handpays it was that busy. Around 1 a.m., it was like a light switch was flipped, and everyone started losing, so we left with the wins, knowing what we know. Read the room before you play and keep an eye on it, and you may benefit.

I believe the casino strategy is to get players drunk from 9 p.m. to 1 a.m., then turn off the winning streaks, leaving the intoxicated and ambitious players to give it back chasing the next win because you're "on a roll."

Some casinos extend this period to 2 a.m.

I mostly play in the HL rooms at this time, as that's where the action is best for me. I've also noticed during these times, that the lower denom machines outside and near a HL room are good machines. Beyond that, out on the main floor of casinos, I don't see as many jackpots. Maybe it's because a lot of those machines are penny and quarter, and don't hit as often.

As for the best times to win, I’ve noticed over many years that Thursday sucks, Friday is a little better, and Saturday night 9 p.m. to 1 a.m. is the golden goose.

If it's a holiday weekend, Sunday night can also be hot, as they consider this an extended weekend. But then, I’ve also won some large jackpots between 4 a.m. and 6 a.m. and most of those are Sunday morning after the Saturday night crowds leave. Maybe they had a lot of overage profit from the previous night's gaming that they push those jackpots out in the early morning hours.

The typical flow for most casinos, week after week, is guests roll in on Thursday or Friday and leave Sunday or Monday before they have to return home and to work.

I have another theory: casinos aim to hit their profit margins first, then pay out jackpots with the excess. During the day, they might tighten the machines to gather the take for the day, and in the evenings, they pay out the overage when more people are playing and the house is packed to create excitement and draw in more players.

I also think due to the larger crowds playing, they will have more cash to spread around. Personally, I rarely win during the day; most of my success happens in the mentioned evening hours.

While I don't have much experience playing Monday-Wednesday, I see the above patterns everywhere. In Florida, I stayed 10 days at the Tampa Hard Rock, and being there over two weekends, I saw the same pattern: 9 p.m. to 2 a.m., then the floor got quiet and there were still a lot of people playing.

You can still win during the off hours, they just don't pay out as much or as often.

I just read about someone winning $1.5 million on a progressive jackpot on a Tuesday afternoon. These jackpots are paid by the manufacturer, not the local casino, so I think those machines follow a different schedule. They pay out when they reach their profit goal, so not all machines operate on the same schedule.

Now, this might sound far-fetched to some, but I believe casinos can control payouts based on players' cards. In 2016, I hit about $95K in jackpots starting at 9:18 p.m., and it continued all night until 6 a.m. at the Venetian/Palazzo across two casinos and on more than eight slot machines. There is no way that was all "random". It didn't feel random. It felt like my player’s card was unlocking those wins. Since then, however, I’ve struggled to win anything significant at this property, despite cycling hundreds of thousands through the machines at the Venetian/Palazzo with little action, while I see lots of other people winning.

It seems like they’ve set my card to a negative payout. I know I probably should not use the card anymore, but it's been partly a test, and I've learned from it, and I also need to show my play to the host to cover comps. Btw, the above mentioned jackpots that we picked up this past weekend, didn't come from V/P, it was another property. I can't win anything at the Venetian anymore, but I think most operate on the same timeline because that's the flow that works best based on visiting patterns.

I think based on my past play patterns, they had programmed that night in 2016 to pay me all those hits, hoping that I would put it all back in and more trying to chase.

They had already made that money from me in prior years, so it was a cheap bet for them to stoke me with a night of jackpots and see if they could use that to squeeze me more.

Casinos get to know your style of play, and I think they use that to try and get more from people. I'm not saying there is some guy sitting at a desk pushing buttons. I think this is all managed by AI software on the server.

I've heard casino management have had meetings to discuss pending jackpots so they can plan for it. For example, they know ahead of time when a large win is coming up, so they can budget before it happens.

Back in 2016, I left with all those wins but they wanted it back, so they set my player’s card to reduce my wins. I think the casino has much more control than most of us think, and they can do this while still being within gaming regulations, loopholes, and legal requirements.

It would also be silly to think that Vegas regulators don’t get paid off through under-the-table deals. That kind of stuff has been happening in Vegas before I was born; why would they stop now? But they would NEVER admit to doing that and shame on me for suggesting anything like this would happen :)

After 25+ years playing and thousands of hours, I’m absolutely convinced these casinos have total control over how much and when machines pay. While the machines have an RNG-based computer inside allowing the machine to operate as a stand-alone machine, as soon as that machine is connected via Ethernet to the server, it now gets all its instructions from the server, which allows their software to manage the whole casino floor.

If you owned a casino, wouldn't you want full control of your business rather than random?

They know to the penny at any time of day how much coin-in and coin-out is happening, and they can manipulate which machines and how much they pay out based on their profit goals, or stoking a roller to benefit their profits. If the casino is planning a large remodel project, they can turn everything down for months to collect more profits.

I won't give out all my secrets, but I've learned a lot about how casinos operate with my past experiences, and it's altered how I play. For what it's worth, maybe this info will help you gain some advantages.

Cheers!

Quote: David425

Hey there,

This is a very interesting subject and something I've been tracking for a long time.

My wife and I have had over 60 trips to Vegas, and we sometimes spend 12+ hours a day playing, so I notice the changes in the casinos. I’ve also been to casinos in other states and seen similar patterns where certain times of the day are better than others.

We just returned from Vegas this past weekend. We were playing in the HL room from around 9 p.m. to 1 a.m. It was a Sunday night on a holiday weekend. The slots were hot, and there were many jackpots going out, including 4 we picked up.

Between 11 p.m. and 12 a.m., the slot attendants were running around, and people were waiting for handpays it was that busy. Around 1 a.m., it was like a light switch was flipped, and everyone started losing, so we left with the wins, knowing what we know. Read the room before you play and keep an eye on it, and you may benefit.

I believe the casino strategy is to get players drunk from 9 p.m. to 1 a.m., then turn off the winning streaks, leaving the intoxicated and ambitious players to give it back chasing the next win because you're "on a roll."

Some casinos extend this period to 2 a.m.

I mostly play in the HL rooms at this time, as that's where the action is best for me. I've also noticed during these times, that the lower denom machines outside and near a HL room are good machines. Beyond that, out on the main floor of casinos, I don't see as many jackpots. Maybe it's because a lot of those machines are penny and quarter, and don't hit as often.

As for the best times to win, I’ve noticed over many years that Thursday sucks, Friday is a little better, and Saturday night 9 p.m. to 1 a.m. is the golden goose.

If it's a holiday weekend, Sunday night can also be hot, as they consider this an extended weekend. But then, I’ve also won some large jackpots between 4 a.m. and 6 a.m. and most of those are Sunday morning after the Saturday night crowds leave. Maybe they had a lot of overage profit from the previous night's gaming that they push those jackpots out in the early morning hours.

The typical flow for most casinos, week after week, is guests roll in on Thursday or Friday and leave Sunday or Monday before they have to return home and to work.

I have another theory: casinos aim to hit their profit margins first, then pay out jackpots with the excess. During the day, they might tighten the machines to gather the take for the day, and in the evenings, they pay out the overage when more people are playing and the house is packed to create excitement and draw in more players.

I also think due to the larger crowds playing, they will have more cash to spread around. Personally, I rarely win during the day; most of my success happens in the mentioned evening hours.

While I don't have much experience playing Monday-Wednesday, I see the above patterns everywhere. In Florida, I stayed 10 days at the Tampa Hard Rock, and being there over two weekends, I saw the same pattern: 9 p.m. to 2 a.m., then the floor got quiet and there were still a lot of people playing.

You can still win during the off hours, they just don't pay out as much or as often.

I just read about someone winning $1.5 million on a progressive jackpot on a Tuesday afternoon. These jackpots are paid by the manufacturer, not the local casino, so I think those machines follow a different schedule. They pay out when they reach their profit goal, so not all machines operate on the same schedule.

Now, this might sound far-fetched to some, but I believe casinos can control payouts based on players' cards. In 2016, I hit about $95K in jackpots starting at 9:18 p.m., and it continued all night until 6 a.m. at the Venetian/Palazzo across two casinos and on more than eight slot machines. There is no way that was all "random". It didn't feel random. It felt like my player’s card was unlocking those wins. Since then, however, I’ve struggled to win anything significant at this property, despite cycling hundreds of thousands through the machines at the Venetian/Palazzo with little action, while I see lots of other people winning.

It seems like they’ve set my card to a negative payout. I know I probably should not use the card anymore, but it's been partly a test, and I've learned from it, and I also need to show my play to the host to cover comps. Btw, the above mentioned jackpots that we picked up this past weekend, didn't come from V/P, it was another property. I can't win anything at the Venetian anymore, but I think most operate on the same timeline because that's the flow that works best based on visiting patterns.

I think based on my past play patterns, they had programmed that night in 2016 to pay me all those hits, hoping that I would put it all back in and more trying to chase.

They had already made that money from me in prior years, so it was a cheap bet for them to stoke me with a night of jackpots and see if they could use that to squeeze me more.

Casinos get to know your style of play, and I think they use that to try and get more from people. I'm not saying there is some guy sitting at a desk pushing buttons. I think this is all managed by AI software on the server.

I've heard casino management have had meetings to discuss pending jackpots so they can plan for it. For example, they know ahead of time when a large win is coming up, so they can budget before it happens.

Back in 2016, I left with all those wins but they wanted it back, so they set my player’s card to reduce my wins. I think the casino has much more control than most of us think, and they can do this while still being within gaming regulations, loopholes, and legal requirements.

It would also be silly to think that Vegas regulators don’t get paid off through under-the-table deals. That kind of stuff has been happening in Vegas before I was born; why would they stop now? But they would NEVER admit to doing that and shame on me for suggesting anything like this would happen :)

After 25+ years playing and thousands of hours, I’m absolutely convinced these casinos have total control over how much and when machines pay. While the machines have an RNG-based computer inside allowing the machine to operate as a stand-alone machine, as soon as that machine is connected via Ethernet to the server, it now gets all its instructions from the server, which allows their software to manage the whole casino floor.

If you owned a casino, wouldn't you want full control of your business rather than random?

They know to the penny at any time of day how much coin-in and coin-out is happening, and they can manipulate which machines and how much they pay out based on their profit goals, or stoking a roller to benefit their profits. If the casino is planning a large remodel project, they can turn everything down for months to collect more profits.

I won't give out all my secrets, but I've learned a lot about how casinos operate with my past experiences, and it's altered how I play. For what it's worth, maybe this info will help you gain some advantages.

Cheers!
link to original post

Or, the casinos can just set their slot machines up using a legal RNG with a 5% - 25% HA and watch the money roll in without F-ing about and risking scandal, fines and whatever else bad could come of illegally rigging machines. Most people don't understand how quickly you average out (lose) playing a -14% disadvantage on the average slot machine.

Whatever the case, I'm sorry to say that what you are saying is
the opposite of how slots work in Vegas.

Quote: David425

Hey there,

This is a very interesting subject and something I've been tracking for a long time.

My wife and I have had over 60 trips to Vegas, and we sometimes spend 12+ hours a day playing, so I notice the changes in the casinos. I’ve also been to casinos in other states and seen similar patterns where certain times of the day are better than others.

We just returned from Vegas this past weekend. We were playing in the HL room from around 9 p.m. to 1 a.m. It was a Sunday night on a holiday weekend. The slots were hot, and there were many jackpots going out, including 4 we picked up.

Between 11 p.m. and 12 a.m., the slot attendants were running around, and people were waiting for handpays it was that busy. Around 1 a.m., it was like a light switch was flipped, and everyone started losing, so we left with the wins, knowing what we know. Read the room before you play and keep an eye on it, and you may benefit.

I believe the casino strategy is to get players drunk from 9 p.m. to 1 a.m., then turn off the winning streaks, leaving the intoxicated and ambitious players to give it back chasing the next win because you're "on a roll."

Some casinos extend this period to 2 a.m.

I mostly play in the HL rooms at this time, as that's where the action is best for me. I've also noticed during these times, that the lower denom machines outside and near a HL room are good machines. Beyond that, out on the main floor of casinos, I don't see as many jackpots. Maybe it's because a lot of those machines are penny and quarter, and don't hit as often.

As for the best times to win, I’ve noticed over many years that Thursday sucks, Friday is a little better, and Saturday night 9 p.m. to 1 a.m. is the golden goose.

If it's a holiday weekend, Sunday night can also be hot, as they consider this an extended weekend. But then, I’ve also won some large jackpots between 4 a.m. and 6 a.m. and most of those are Sunday morning after the Saturday night crowds leave. Maybe they had a lot of overage profit from the previous night's gaming that they push those jackpots out in the early morning hours.

The typical flow for most casinos, week after week, is guests roll in on Thursday or Friday and leave Sunday or Monday before they have to return home and to work.

I have another theory: casinos aim to hit their profit margins first, then pay out jackpots with the excess. During the day, they might tighten the machines to gather the take for the day, and in the evenings, they pay out the overage when more people are playing and the house is packed to create excitement and draw in more players.

I also think due to the larger crowds playing, they will have more cash to spread around. Personally, I rarely win during the day; most of my success happens in the mentioned evening hours.

While I don't have much experience playing Monday-Wednesday, I see the above patterns everywhere. In Florida, I stayed 10 days at the Tampa Hard Rock, and being there over two weekends, I saw the same pattern: 9 p.m. to 2 a.m., then the floor got quiet and there were still a lot of people playing.

You can still win during the off hours, they just don't pay out as much or as often.

I just read about someone winning $1.5 million on a progressive jackpot on a Tuesday afternoon. These jackpots are paid by the manufacturer, not the local casino, so I think those machines follow a different schedule. They pay out when they reach their profit goal, so not all machines operate on the same schedule.

Now, this might sound far-fetched to some, but I believe casinos can control payouts based on players' cards. In 2016, I hit about $95K in jackpots starting at 9:18 p.m., and it continued all night until 6 a.m. at the Venetian/Palazzo across two casinos and on more than eight slot machines. There is no way that was all "random". It didn't feel random. It felt like my player’s card was unlocking those wins. Since then, however, I’ve struggled to win anything significant at this property, despite cycling hundreds of thousands through the machines at the Venetian/Palazzo with little action, while I see lots of other people winning.

It seems like they’ve set my card to a negative payout. I know I probably should not use the card anymore, but it's been partly a test, and I've learned from it, and I also need to show my play to the host to cover comps. Btw, the above mentioned jackpots that we picked up this past weekend, didn't come from V/P, it was another property. I can't win anything at the Venetian anymore, but I think most operate on the same timeline because that's the flow that works best based on visiting patterns.

I think based on my past play patterns, they had programmed that night in 2016 to pay me all those hits, hoping that I would put it all back in and more trying to chase.

They had already made that money from me in prior years, so it was a cheap bet for them to stoke me with a night of jackpots and see if they could use that to squeeze me more.

Casinos get to know your style of play, and I think they use that to try and get more from people. I'm not saying there is some guy sitting at a desk pushing buttons. I think this is all managed by AI software on the server.

I've heard casino management have had meetings to discuss pending jackpots so they can plan for it. For example, they know ahead of time when a large win is coming up, so they can budget before it happens.

Back in 2016, I left with all those wins but they wanted it back, so they set my player’s card to reduce my wins. I think the casino has much more control than most of us think, and they can do this while still being within gaming regulations, loopholes, and legal requirements.

It would also be silly to think that Vegas regulators don’t get paid off through under-the-table deals. That kind of stuff has been happening in Vegas before I was born; why would they stop now? But they would NEVER admit to doing that and shame on me for suggesting anything like this would happen :)

After 25+ years playing and thousands of hours, I’m absolutely convinced these casinos have total control over how much and when machines pay. While the machines have an RNG-based computer inside allowing the machine to operate as a stand-alone machine, as soon as that machine is connected via Ethernet to the server, it now gets all its instructions from the server, which allows their software to manage the whole casino floor.

If you owned a casino, wouldn't you want full control of your business rather than random?

They know to the penny at any time of day how much coin-in and coin-out is happening, and they can manipulate which machines and how much they pay out based on their profit goals, or stoking a roller to benefit their profits. If the casino is planning a large remodel project, they can turn everything down for months to collect more profits.

I won't give out all my secrets, but I've learned a lot about how casinos operate with my past experiences, and it's altered how I play. For what it's worth, maybe this info will help you gain some advantages.

Cheers!
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As someone who has designed slot machines, worked for casinos, set up casino floors, pretty much all of your assertions are incorrect.

Quote: DRich

As someone who has designed slot machines, worked for casinos, set up casino floors, pretty much all of your assertions are incorrect.
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yeah, but you know they would come and kill you if you revealed what really went on. Same thing with the soldiers and workers who scoop up the crashed UFOs and dead aliens.

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: DRich

As someone who has designed slot machines, worked for casinos, set up casino floors, pretty much all of your assertions are incorrect.
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yeah, but you know they would come and kill you if you revealed what really went on. Same thing with the soldiers and workers who scoop up the crashed UFOs and dead aliens.
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