Cleopatra deconstructed
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20 members have voted
The question for the forum is what do you think of the new page?
For someone like me who is always trying to learn, you presented it in an easy to understand way.
Quote: BozIncredibly useful information and Thank You for your work. Only thing I noticed was the Summary says “Lionfish” instead of Cleopatra.
For someone like me who is always trying to learn, you presented it in an easy to understand way.
Thank you for the correction and especially for the kind words.
I always assumed they were worst than 95.025%, that seems generous for slots. Is there any information how many settings they have and what denomination this was?
Quote: AxelWolfI always assumed they were worst than 95.025%, that seems generous for slots. Is there any information how many settings they have and what denomination this was?
Video slots here in Vegas tend to pay anywhere from 85% to 94%. IGT has several versions of most games and the slot director can choose how stingy or tight to set them.
Quote: AxelWolfWhen "forced" to play slots(slots only promos) I tended to gravitate toward this and other similar slots. You don't seem to lose as much.
I always assumed they were worst than 95.025%, that seems generous for slots. Is there any information how many settings they have and what denomination this was?
In my experience with old IGT games, they have about 10 settings ranging from about 83 to 98.
For instance, perhaps it's known the lower return games have a certain symbol (or group of symbols) that show(s) up considerably more often or less often than a higher return setting. So after a few hundred spins and counting the necessary symbols, you can at least ballpark the return and figure it's likely within a certain range of return.
Quote: RSMore of a general slots question and not specific to cleopatra, but since the stuff about the return has been brought up -- is there any easy way to figure out or at least estimate the return of a slot (general or specific) sort'a on-the-fly without tracking reels, doing lots of math, etc.?
For instance, perhaps it's known the lower return games have a certain symbol (or group of symbols) that show(s) up considerably more often or less often than a higher return setting. So after a few hundred spins and counting the necessary symbols, you can at least ballpark the return and figure it's likely within a certain range of return.
I would say no.
Modern games tend to put a lot of the payback in the Bonus so without playing many Bonuses I don't think you could even come up with a reasonable range only playing a few games. Many of the PAR sheets I have looked at recently have more than 50% of the return in the bonus.
Quote: RSMore of a general slots question and not specific to cleopatra, but since the stuff about the return has been brought up -- is there any easy way to figure out or at least estimate the return of a slot (general or specific) sort'a on-the-fly without tracking reels, doing lots of math, etc.?
For instance, perhaps it's known the lower return games have a certain symbol (or group of symbols) that show(s) up considerably more often or less often than a higher return setting. So after a few hundred spins and counting the necessary symbols, you can at least ballpark the return and figure it's likely within a certain range of return.
I don't see any easy way looking just at the slot machine itself. However, you can tell a lot about how loose a casino with with slots by looking at their video keno, which is quantifiable. That is largely why I created my keno scouting guide.
Because Brawndo has electrolytes.Quote: djatcWas Cleopatra a bigot?
Do they lower the frequency of bonuses?
Do they lower the amount bonuses pay on average?
Do they cut down the frequency on certain line pays, if so, would they tend to cut down on the frequency of the bigger pays?
Do they go after the frequency of scatter pays?
Do they just take a little from each?
Another game I visited another casino to play, my only bonus was well over 50% less than the 100s I've had elsewhere, no need to play there.
If you're suspicious, not much to gain proving yourself wrong. Better to test optimistic beliefs.
I don't doubt a lot are a little difficult to judge, but some aren't, there are slot tells.
In that event results in a tie, I count it as an all Cleopatra win in the tables of winning combinations later on. For example, Cleopatra - Cleopatra - K - Q -J, which can be scored as 10 for either two Cleopatras or a doubled three tens, is counted as two Cleopatra win.
Did you mean Kings here ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^ ?
Quote: rsactuaryDid you mean Kings here ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------^ ?
Yes, thanks.
Quote: GWAEJust cuious what the point of deconstructing a slot is? If there was 1 setting then I could see it useful but since there can be so many and you can't tell which one you are playing then it doesn't really help. Am I missing something?
Just to show players how they work.
On an old 2010 bonus game (from detailed analysis of real-world data), the frequency of the bonus & amount did not change. Line pay return went down (as game was set tighter). Game had no scatter pays.Quote: AxelWolfFor the most part, when IGT(or others) make slots with all the different settings, where do they take and give EV from?
Do they lower the frequency of bonuses?
Do they lower the amount bonuses pay on average?
Do they cut down the frequency on certain line pays, if so, would they tend to cut down on the frequency of the bigger pays?
Do they go after the frequency of scatter pays?
Do they just take a little from each?
On one family of 2011 progressives, the frequency of bonus seems the same (no analysis). Amount of bonus may be smaller on average (big ones still happen). Line pay return plummets. The higher settings are usually, but not necessarily lower variance. The highest setting I play seems to be very Jekyll & Hyde (80% for long period, then 120-140% for awhile, etc...). It actually seems to be higher variance than slightly lower settings. - However, this is anecdotal. No real analysis of line-pays or bonus amounts over long periods.
So it seems that reducing line pays is more common than adjusting bonus frequency.
Quote: WizardI don't see any easy way looking just at the slot machine itself.
However, you can tell a lot about how loose a casino with with slots by looking at their video keno, which is quantifiable. That is largely why I created my keno scouting guide.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/keno/keno-pay-tables.pdf
keno paytables = 86.4%, 88.8%, and 92.6%.
so what can I assume if keno is set to 86% or 88%? (I think both returns are horrible.)
that the casino probably set their slots to the lowest setting possible?
Quote: 100xOddskeno paytables = 86.4%, 88.8%, and 92.6%.
so what can I assume if keno is set to 86% or 88%? (I think both returns are horrible.)
that the casino probably set their slots to the lowest setting possible?
You have to check the pay table against my scouting guide to know the return.
Quote: AxelWolfFor the most part, when IGT(or others) make slots with all the different settings, where do they take and give EV from?
Do they lower the frequency of bonuses?
Do they lower the amount bonuses pay on average?
Do they cut down the frequency on certain line pays, if so, would they tend to cut down on the frequency of the bigger pays?
Do they go after the frequency of scatter pays?
Do they just take a little from each?
This is an interesting question ... maybe the number of symbols on reels is changing?
Quote: AxelWolfFor the most part, when IGT(or others) make slots with all the different settings, where do they take and give EV from?
Do they lower the frequency of bonuses?
Do they lower the amount bonuses pay on average?
Do they cut down the frequency on certain line pays, if so, would they tend to cut down on the frequency of the bigger pays?
Do they go after the frequency of scatter pays?
Do they just take a little from each?
The cut down the probabilities of the big line pays. This is done by just changing a few symbols on the reel strips. For example, changing a wild to any specific line pay is an easy way to lower the return. They can also stagger the first three reels so that there is a shortage of certain symbols on certain reels, making it difficult to line up anything to for a win.
The return from the bonuses and scatters tend to remain constant.
Quote: WizardThe cut down the probabilities of the big line pays. This is done by just changing a few symbols on the reel strips. For example, changing a wild to any specific line pay is an easy way to lower the return. They can also stagger the first three reels so that there is a shortage of certain symbols on certain reels, making it difficult to line up anything to for a win.
The return from the bonuses and scatters tend to remain constant.
My experience is a little different. Many of the video slots I worked on we adjusted the bonus frequency and the bonus payback. We tried to keep the base game rather similar so it was more difficult to identify different pay schedules.
Quote: DRichMy experience is a little different. Many of the video slots I worked on we adjusted the bonus frequency and the bonus payback. We tried to keep the base game rather similar so it was more difficult to identify different pay schedules.
I just checked a popular video slot from the early 2000's by a major slot maker and the probability and return from both scatters and the bonus were the same on every par sheet, from 85% to 98%. Granted, a sample size of one is not very big, but I believe this was typical of the way said company did video slots at the time.
Out of respect for intellectual property, I won't reveal the game or the game maker.
Quote: WizardThe cut down the probabilities of the big line pays. This is done by just changing a few symbols on the reel strips. For example, changing a wild to any specific line pay is an easy way to lower the return. They can also stagger the first three reels so that there is a shortage of certain symbols on certain reels, making it difficult to line up anything to for a win.
The return from the bonuses and scatters tend to remain constant.
It says that models of old IGT have a real RNG : )
Quote: WizardI just checked a popular video slot from the early 2000's by a major slot maker and the probability and return from both scatters and the bonus were the same on every par sheet, from 85% to 98%. Granted, a sample size of one is not very big, but I believe this was typical of the way said company did video slots at the time.
Out of respect for intellectual property, I won't reveal the game or the game maker. If you personally want to know, under confidentiality, PM me.
You can do it either way, but Quick Hits Platinum (ALL of the info was once available online at any time, probably by accident) works the way you describe above. There are five different return settings, but the probability of 5-9 QHP as well as of Free Games never changes. Makes sense if you think about it, from casino to casino, I think that people are much less likely to notice fewer higher paying base game symbols (replaced with cherries, or whatever) than they are to notice a disparity in Free Games from one device to another. That's not to say that they are likely to notice anything either way, just that changing something other than Free Games frequency makes it less likely.
Another reason for doing it that way, particularly with Progressives, is because you often have linked Progressives with those (and other) machines. If you're going to have linked Progressives, I believe it is necessary for the players to all have the same probability of hitting it on any individual spin. If that is true and the probabilities of Progressives remain the same, you can still have the individual units set to different overall returns that way...if you want.
Quote: Mission146You can do it either way, but Quick Hits Platinum (ALL of the info was once available online at any time, probably by accident) works the way you describe above.
Can you provide a source? I'd like to write about it.
I don't remember exactly what the article said or how accurate the study was. It may have even been posted on VOV. It alluded to the fact that people could, in fact, tell when they were playing poorer paying slots.Quote: Mission146That's not to say that they are likely to notice anything either way, just that changing something other than Free Games frequency makes it less likely.
.
Quote: WizardCan you provide a source? I'd like to write about it.
Relevant thread https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/12930-quick-hits-simulator/ .
Quote: Mission146You can do it either way, but Quick Hits Platinum (ALL of the info was once available online at any time, probably by accident) works the way you describe above. There are five different return settings, but the probability of 5-9 QHP as well as of Free Games never changes.
Black & White Double Jackpot - Quick Hit:
https://www.arcade-history.com/?n=black-and-white-double-jackpot-quick-hit-feature&page=detail&id=46134
it has a range for the return settings instead of a specific #.
ie: Min/Max %: 77.42%/88.09%, Min/Max %: 89.16%/93.97%, etc
what does it mean when the return setting has a range?
Quote: 100xOddsBlack & White Double Jackpot - Quick Hit:
https://www.arcade-history.com/?n=black-and-white-double-jackpot-quick-hit-feature&page=detail&id=46134
it has a range for the return settings instead of a specific #.
ie: Min/Max %: 77.42%/88.09%, Min/Max %: 89.16%/93.97%, etc
what does it mean when the return setting has a range?
It just means that there are five different return percentages to which the casino can program the game.
The one you linked to above is not a Quick Hit Platinum machine. That's a single-line game.
Here's are a few Quick Hit Platinum:
https://www.arcade-history.com/?n=black-gold-wild-quick-hit-platinum&page=detail&id=45272
https://www.arcade-history.com/?n=black-and-white-sevens-quick-hit-platinum-model-s9-1&page=detail&id=32113
https://www.arcade-history.com/?n=triple-blazing-7s-jackpot-quick-hit-platinum&page=detail&id=45274
As you can see, the potential return settings are close to the same for each unit, though the hit rates can vary pretty dramatically. Because the probabilities of QHP and Free Games are always the same (on a particular title) it means that the returns are changed by way of what's on the lines. For instance, you could change a high-paying symbol on each reel to a lower-paying one, and that will affect the return, or vice-versa.
Quote: WizardCan you provide a source? I'd like to write about it.
In the post above this one.
There was once even more detail available on the Bally site, which I assume was by mistake. It was there for some time, actually. I suspect that what may have happened is that they simply had a few pages that were supposed to only be viewable by the industry that were made publicly viewable. Either way, the more limited information on the, "Arcade History," site, linked above, agreed completely with what WAS on the Bally site, as I recall.
Unfortunately, if that full information is still on the Bally site, I can't find it.
Also, still on Bally, you can see that the hit rate agrees with what is above:
https://www.sggaming.com/games/BALLY/class3/video/quick-hit-platinum-black--white-sevens-1311
https://www.sggaming.com/games/BALLY/class3/video/quick-hit-platinum-triple-blazing-7s-wild-jackpot-1418
https://www.sggaming.com/games/BALLY/class3/video/quick-hit-platinum-black-gold-wild-2757
But, more information used to be directly available.
Quote: Mission146There was once even more detail available on the Bally site, ...
Thanks. What was there wasn't much. I tried to get the par sheet but was rebuffed by a password request.
Quote: WizardThanks. What was there wasn't much. I tried to get the par sheet but was rebuffed by a password request.
Unfortunately, yes. Most of the information from the PAR sheet was once on the page itself, if not all of it. We're talking a few years ago now.
Quote: Mission146Unfortunately, yes. Most of the information from the PAR sheet was once on the page itself, if not all of it. We're talking a few years ago now.
You might be able to use the wayback machine to find it.
Quote: onenickelmiracleWhen I suspect a return is not as good, two things lead me to believe it. The first is a sudden repetition of symbols patterns or teases I never noticed before. The second is recognizing the general public has lost interest playing anymore. Empty seats means the casual players have been burned or disappointed too many times. You just wind up with the obsessed, the greedy and the people hoping to defy their instincts by winning on machines they really don't think they can.
Recently I became interested in poker and stumbled on the online casino Crypto FairPlay
The site writes that it is one of the few in the world with the Provably Fair built-in system, which excludes any possibility for the casino to change the game algorithm, and also provides the client with tools for checking the results of the game. Has anyone heard of this system?
There's quite a few places that uses that system now so it's not very unique.Quote: Konstantin753Recently I became interested in poker and stumbled on the online casino Crypto FairPlay https://www.CryptoFairPlay.com/7001
The site writes that it is one of the few in the world with the Provably Fair built-in system, which excludes any possibility for the casino to change the game algorithm, and also provides the client with tools for checking the results of the game. Has anyone heard of this system?
I had questions about it as well and I didn't get much of anything.
They might not be able to change the results, however, if the results are mostly all bad it doesn't really help all that much.
Crypto FairPlay looks like a casino set up for the purpose of enticing affiliates to an investment pyramid scheme.
How does the contractual relationship between casinos and slot designers work?
I believe that the hardware can be either leased or bought. What about the software? Is each individual theme licensed by the casino for the duration of its use, with different themes having different fees? Or does the casino just pay a generic licensing fee that allow it choose from all themes that work on a particular class of machine?
