Are symbols randomized per reel

One of my favorite slots is Invaders From The Planet Moolah.
It has something they call "Cascading Reels". When a line pays off, the symbols disappear and new symbols "cascade" down from the top. This continues as long as there are winning lines.

My question actually applies to all video slots.

Is the order of the symbols on an individual reel fixed?
Or, do/can the machine randomize the order of the symbols on the reels prior to a spin?

I know the number of and weights of the symbols must remain constant per reel, but position on the reel could change every spin.

Quote: Snapper

One of my favorite slots is Invaders From The Planet Moolah.
It has something they call "Cascading Reels". When a line pays off, the symbols disappear and new symbols "cascade" down from the top. This continues as long as there are winning lines.

My question actually applies to all video slots.

Is the order of the symbols on an individual reel fixed?
Or, do/can the machine randomize the order of the symbols on the reels prior to a spin?

I know the number of and weights of the symbols must remain constant per reel, but position on the reel could change every spin.

I play moolah a lot. I'm pretty sure symbols are not fixed by reel on that game, or most video games. They are on mechanical reels, of course, but even new "mechanical" electronic wheels have at least some symbols that change as you spin, light up as this or that. The incidence is usually proprietary to the manufacturer.

However, I'm not an expert. DRich, Crystal Math, and several.others are, and could answer your question with some authority.

Edit. Disregard my answer, and see CM below. I misunderstood you.

Quote: Snapper

One of my favorite slots is Invaders From The Planet Moolah.
It has something they call "Cascading Reels". When a line pays off, the symbols disappear and new symbols "cascade" down from the top. This continues as long as there are winning lines.

My question actually applies to all video slots.

Is the order of the symbols on an individual reel fixed?
Or, do/can the machine randomize the order of the symbols on the reels prior to a spin?

I know the number of and weights of the symbols must remain constant per reel, but position on the reel could change every spin.

Although it may be possible to randomize the reel, I've never known of or designed a game to work this way. I'm almost 100% confident that Moolah has fixed reels, and you consistently see the stacks of wilds. Especially with a cascading slot, it would be impossible to calculate with random reels, so you would need to rely on a simulation.

And, I've got to agree with you - it's one of the all time great games.

Quote: beachbumbabs

However, I'm not an expert. DRich, Crystal Math, and several.others are, and could answer your question with some authority.

Hopefully :)

Quote: CrystalMath

Hopefully :)

Glad you came along to chime in. I misunderstood the question. Thanks!

Quote: CrystalMath

Although it may be possible to randomize the reel, I've never known of or designed a game to work this way. I'm almost 100% confident that Moolah has fixed reels, and you consistently see the stacks of wilds. Especially with a cascading slot, it would be impossible to calculate with random reels, so you would need to rely on a simulation.

And, I've got to agree with you - it's one of the all time great games.

Right -- the reason you don't (or shouldn't) design cascading reels games with random symbol replacements is the small chance of a very, very large award that isn't in the par sheet. It's possible for a random cascade to go on forever, or at least a very long time, in the same way it's possible for a craps shooter to have a hand that lasts for hundreds of rolls. With fixed reels, there are only a limited number of combinations. It's not conceptually different than a nudge, just more complicated: for each initial set of reel positions you can iterate and find out the final pay. The fact that reels are exploding in the interim doesn't matter.

Thank you for the quick response.

As a computer programmer, I was wondering why it would be impossible to calculate with random reels.
As long as the number of times each symbol appears on a given reel remains fixed, the position of each symbol should be irrelevant.

But, as you metioned, you can see stacks of wilds, so there must be some purpose (or design) to the order of the symbols on the reels.

Quote: Snapper

Thank you for the quick response.

As a computer programmer, I was wondering why it would be impossible to calculate with random reels.
As long as the number of times each symbol appears on a given reel remains fixed, the position of each symbol should be irrelevant.

But, as you metioned, you can see stacks of wilds, so there must be some purpose (or design) to the order of the symbols on the reels.

The stacked wilds make the cascading more fun in this game. It builds some anticipation when you have a cascade with wilds and you are likely to get more wilds cascade in from above.

When I say impossible, I meant completely impractical due to the cascading. It's enough work to just calculate the wins from a single reel configuration.

Quote: CrystalMath

.. , I've never known of or designed a game to work this way.

+1

Quote: MathExtremist

Right -- the reason you don't (or shouldn't) design cascading reels games with random symbol replacements is the small chance of a very, very large award that isn't in the par sheet. It's possible for a random cascade to go on forever, or at least a very long time, in the same way it's possible for a craps shooter to have a hand that lasts for hundreds of rolls. With fixed reels, there are only a limited number of combinations. It's not conceptually different than a nudge, just more complicated: for each initial set of reel positions you can iterate and find out the final pay. The fact that reels are exploding in the interim doesn't matter.

So I'm guessing this also applies to all multi-line slots, not just cascading or expanding wilds. The math used to calculate a single lines probability and payout is still valid, but based on the neighboring symbols you would need to run a simulation through all possible reel stops and calculate the payout for ALL lines. If you switch the order of the symbols on fixed reels, the actual payouts at discreet positions will change.

Quote: Snapper

So I'm guessing this also applies to all multi-line slots, not just cascading or expanding wilds. The math used to calculate a single lines probability and payout is still valid, but based on the neighboring symbols you would need to run a simulation through all possible reel stops and calculate the payout for ALL lines. If you switch the order of the symbols on fixed reels, the actual payouts at discreet positions will change.

Correct, except it's not a simulation but an iteration (exact calculation). "Simulation" is usually reserved for "Monte Carlo simulation" where you can't actually get exact counts in a timely fashion because the problem space is so big.

Sometimes video slot par sheets have whole-game payout distributions, especially the ones without any paylines at all (e.g., lots of Aristocrat games). But it's usually of academic interest, neither regulators nor operators really care what's on the par sheet as long as it's accurate and fulfills the actual compliance requirements.

As an aside, it's not really technically true that you can't get exact counts anymore because server farms exist and you can use massive parallelization, but as a practical matter nobody does that and it's certainly not required. I did a table game recently where I farmed out the math to EC2, it took many hours on many processors and would have taken weeks on my single-processor home machine. When I sent it through BMM for formal approval, they used an MC sim and called it a day.

Quote: Snapper

So I'm guessing this also applies to all multi-line slots, not just cascading or expanding wilds. The math used to calculate a single lines probability and payout is still valid, but based on the neighboring symbols you would need to run a simulation through all possible reel stops and calculate the payout for ALL lines. If you switch the order of the symbols on fixed reels, the actual payouts at discreet positions will change.

Yes, the math is still valid, but the volatility is different. Also, it would be more difficult to know exactly what the operator's max liability would be. With fixed reels, I often run through the entire cycle to determine these statistics.

Quote: MathExtremist

Correct, except it's not a simulation but an iteration (exact calculation).

+1

I have a degree in math/comp science, but I is ejicated in the U.S. of A. :)

Your playing with a video slot machine so the answer would be No. Every reel you would get a randomize symbols. Computer has an algorithm that change every icon to be shown.

To the person who said the thing about Casinos not wanting infinite winning symbols or something like that, every machine has the possibility to glitch in a good way. No slot machine is perfect and 100 percent foolproof. For example, there was a report that a guy put in a $20 in a game and was betting a $1 a spin. 95 percent of his spins were huge wins, like full screens of the highest paying symbols. This has to be a 1 in a million odd or something like that. The guy apparently racked up about $8,000 or something like that(the jackpot alert didn't come up because all of the wins were under the $1200 threshold) , and said,"I'd better cash out and leave before the casino realizes that this machine is paying out way too well." He cashed out and 5 minutes later, the slot techs checked the machine out, and shut it down, putting a sign on it saying,Out of service!" LOL. I must add, I don't know how much of this is true, as a poster on a Vegas message board claimed he saw it happen. So, if this is true, machines do have positive glitches were they pay way too well.

Winning a few thousand can be normal on quarter and dollar machines at least. I've almost done that on $2 bets, doesn't seem too normal with $2 bets on penny machines, being able to soar up, up, and away. Usually the penny machines pay only to feed the last few spins.

Quote: Nathan

For example, there was a report that a guy .....

Source for this nonsense?

A poster on some Vegas message board said it. I said it was reported, I should have added "Don't know how much of this is true, as a poster CLAIMED he saw it happen." Off to the edit button if I still have time! ;)