Women wins 8.5 mil jackpot. Casino claims malfunction

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November 5th, 2015 at 6:24:36 PM permalink

Quote: terapined
I think she has a strong case
She has a picture
These slot machine are no longer mechanical
Its all computer
Computer gives her 8.5 mil, I consider it fairly won.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Over-8-million-jackpot-was-slot-machine-malfunction-casino-says-340207762.html

http://www.onlinepoker.net/poker-news/casino-news/85-million-jackpot-winner-told-slot-malfunctioning/27862

I'm not so confident in her chances of having a case. Now, I'm not too familiar with that machine, but I do know that all slots have a warning on them "All malfunctions void payouts" or something similar on them. If the casino forked out some cash for the "jackpot", then it may be a pitiful consolidation payment, but I can't say for sure.

The machine is certainly not mechanical, you're correct. They should be able to go into the machine history and see what happened, and whether or not a legitimate win had occurred.

On a related note, I have seen "ghost jackpots" hit before in my experience, and they were fictitious jackpots of $1,000,000+.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

rsactuary

rsactuary

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November 5th, 2015 at 6:47:45 PM permalink

where is said video?

Dodsferd

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November 5th, 2015 at 6:49:52 PM permalink

Quote: rsactuary
where is said video?

What video? The articles in the OP indicate that she wasn't able to record anything beyond a picture, which is understandable. We have the same practices here, no pictures or videos allowed.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

rsactuary

rsactuary

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November 5th, 2015 at 7:13:46 PM permalink

Quote: Dodsferd
What video? The articles in the OP indicate that she wasn't able to record anything beyond a picture, which is understandable. We have the same practices here, no pictures or videos allowed.

"She recorded the machine on her phone". Do you say you "record a picture"?

Dodsferd

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November 5th, 2015 at 7:19:21 PM permalink

Quote: rsactuary
"She recorded the machine on her phone". Do you say you "record a picture"?

Ah, right. I misread the article, I was under the impression that she just snapped a shot of the machine. Regardless, video proof won't really do much for her case if the machine history says otherwise.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

rsactuary

rsactuary

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November 5th, 2015 at 7:28:08 PM permalink

I would simply like to see the winning combination that gave such a prize... it's a clue to how easy it would be to say it was a malfunction or not.

ontariodealer

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November 5th, 2015 at 8:16:21 PM permalink

does that pic not say 8.5 million nickels

get second you pig

rxwine

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November 5th, 2015 at 8:24:18 PM permalink

Quote: ontariodealer
does that pic not say 8.5 million nickels

171,774,993 credits in nickels recorded on machine

On the other readout is dollars.

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AxelWolf

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November 5th, 2015 at 9:08:44 PM permalink

Quote: Dodsferd
What video? The articles in the OP indicate that she wasn't able to record anything beyond a picture, which is understandable. We have the same practices here, no pictures or videos allowed.

Why is that understandable? What possible bad can come from someone recording a machine?

It's only protecting the casinos ass in case someone has a legitimate jackpot and the casino wants to cry foul.

There was some video recently at a NY casino where machines were stealing credits from people.
They got pissed she was recording as well.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

MrV

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November 5th, 2015 at 9:10:36 PM permalink

This should be simple to solve.

What is the paytable for this game?

Does it in fact provide for that payout, for those symbols in that position?

Bet not.

"What, me worry?"

Dodsferd

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November 5th, 2015 at 9:23:51 PM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Why is that understandable? What possible bad can come from someone recording a machine?

It's only protecting the casinos ass in case someone has a legitimate jackpot and the casino wants to cry foul.

There was some video recently at a NY casino where machines were stealing credits from people.
They got pissed she was recording as well.

Typically speaking, they're more concerned with staff, camera locations, exits, and other aspects of the casino coming into frame and being recorded. Doesn't have much to do with the machines themselves. We've had photographers come into the casino for promotional purposes come into the building after hours to take photos, etc.

It's a pretty common rule among casinos, and it's more just superstition than validity.

In my professional opinion, it arises suspicion for me, and causes an interest in the individual and their motives for wanting to record on the gaming floor.
In my personal opinion, it's harmless 99.9% of the time, and I really don't think it's a big deal.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

AxelWolf

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November 5th, 2015 at 9:30:27 PM permalink

Quote: Dodsferd
Typically speaking, they're more concerned with staff, camera locations, exits, and other aspects of the casino coming into frame and being recorded. Doesn't have much to do with the machines themselves. We've had photographers come into the casino for promotional purposes come into the building after hours to take photos, etc.

It's a pretty common rule among casinos, and it's more just superstition than validity.

In my professional opinion, it arises suspicion for me, and causes an interest in the individual and their motives for wanting to record on the gaming floor.
In my personal opinion, it's harmless 99.9% of the time, and I really don't think it's a big deal.

Exactly and by not letting someone record an event like this makes it seem suspicious.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

Dodsferd

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November 5th, 2015 at 9:40:11 PM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Exactly and by not letting someone record an event like this makes it seem suspicious.

Which, unfortunately, goes both ways. There is a lot of superstition and suspicion when it comes to this industry (no surprise), and the house tends to win in that tug-of-war, being that it's their house that people play in.

Again, I understand reasons for and against photographing or recording machines during play, but when I'm on shift, I'm there for the company.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

AxelWolf

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November 5th, 2015 at 10:11:23 PM permalink

Quote: Dodsferd
Quote: AxelWolf
Exactly and by not letting someone record an event like this makes it seem suspicious.

Which, unfortunately, goes both ways. There is a lot of superstition and suspicion when it comes to this industry (no surprise), and the house tends to win in that tug-of-war, being that it's their house that people play in.

Again, I understand reasons for and against photographing or recording machines during play, but when I'm on shift, I'm there for the company.

There's no legitimate argument for not letting people record their own play.

I can understand that they don't want people recording exits and certain procedures. If someone wanted to secretly record that stuff they could EASILY do so and never be noticed. It's the people secretly recording they need to worry about not little old ladies recording JP wins. That's just dumb.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

Dodsferd

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November 5th, 2015 at 10:25:39 PM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
There's no legitimate argument for not letting people record their own play.

I can understand that they don't want people recording exits and certain procedures. If someone wanted to secretly record that stuff they could EASILY do so and never be noticed. It's the people secretly recording they need to worry about not little old ladies recording JP wins. That's just dumb.

It's private property, just as you have the right to say what does and doesn't happen within the confines of your own home.

Quote: AxelWolf
their own play.

The scary thing is, it's not their own play. All of the machines are owned by the gaming commission, and are being used for entertainment purposes. Their credits and play can be voided at any time.

Now, I've checked over our Terms and Conditions to double check, and it does indicate that pictures or recording of any type is strictly prohibited by any volunteer staff or charity workers in the vault / cash out cages. I realize that that doesn't apply here, though it is the only regulation related documentation I can find which speaks to any sort of non-casino recording.

This again leads me to believe that the prohibition of recording is entirely in-house related, and falls under the ownness of each casino to make a final call on that topic.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

Kentry

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November 6th, 2015 at 2:03:12 AM permalink

Man, that is jank! I would raise hell if the machine told me that I won over 8 million dollars and the Casino wouldn't pay me!

AxelWolf

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November 6th, 2015 at 2:14:15 AM permalink

Quote: Kentry
Man, that is jank! I would raise hell if the machine told me that I won over 8 million dollars and the Casino wouldn't pay me!

First they have to determine if a 8 million dollar JP was even possible.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

Dodsferd

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November 6th, 2015 at 2:38:17 AM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
First they have to determine if a 8 million dollar JP was even possible.

Aye. I mentioned previously that I am not familiar with that particular machine. The intricacies of the different machines isn't usually something we're supposed to know in our department, though I find it odd that a 5 cent machine would have a jackpot of $8m.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

beachbumbabs

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November 6th, 2015 at 3:17:06 AM permalink

Quote: Dodsferd
Aye. I mentioned previously that I am not familiar with that particular machine. The intricacies of the different machines isn't usually something we're supposed to know in our department, though I find it odd that a 5 cent machine would have a jackpot of $8m.

Yeah, odd doesn't cover it. I've never seen a 5 cent machine that had any possibility of hitting a JP like that.

Still, $80 is a pretty sad consolation prize. I think they could have shaken loose of some serious freeplay or something, not just stood on the letter of the malfunction clause. JMO given that the story's out there.

If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

Dodsferd

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November 6th, 2015 at 3:54:54 AM permalink

Quote: beachbumbabs
Yeah, odd doesn't cover it. I've never seen a 5 cent machine that had any possibility of hitting a JP like that.

Still, $80 is a pretty sad consolation prize. I think they could have shaken loose of some serious freeplay or something, not just stood on the letter of the malfunction clause. JMO given that the story's out there.

The unfortunate reality, is that every machine indicates "Malfunction voids all pays and plays", so by that statement, they'd be entitled to absolutely nothing. The PR call of the department or casino in question certainly could have at least extended an olive branch beyond a paltry $80.

Offer a meal or something as well. Food takes the mind off of troubles for most.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

ThatDonGuy

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November 6th, 2015 at 6:42:50 AM permalink

Quote: AxelWolf
Why is that understandable? What possible bad can come from someone recording a machine?

I always thought bans on recording/taking photos of slot machines were more to protect the IP of the slot machine manufacturer (e.g. so you don't get a video of the reels as they spin) than to protect the casino.

Mission146

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November 6th, 2015 at 9:24:16 AM permalink

Of course I wrote an Article about this:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/Machine-Malfunction-Voids-All-Pays-and-Plays-And-H/

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

Kentry

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November 6th, 2015 at 11:12:54 AM permalink

There was a controversy when a woman bought a dollar scratch off and scratched her ticket. Her number was a 2. On the Numbers part, it said 2 equals $20,000! Understandably, she was shocked and happy to be the winner of $20,000, and drove to her state's Lottery office to claim her money. The Lottery Office told her that there was a Misprint on the numbers part of the ticket that made a 5 look like a 2 or something like that) and refused to pay her. She took them to court for refusing to pay her.

rxwine

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November 6th, 2015 at 11:47:36 AM permalink

Quote: beachbumbabs
Yeah, odd doesn't cover it. I've never seen a 5 cent machine that had any possibility of hitting a JP like that.

NickelMania might be in 100k territory, but I can't think of anything else.

There was (or still is) a megabucks version which is in penny denomination that started at 10million. 300 pennies was max bet. That sort of thing. And some of the other million dollar payouts are in dollar denominations.

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Wizard
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November 6th, 2015 at 1:33:46 PM permalink

Most casinos still have a no photography policy. Before everybody carried around a smart phone with a camera, they were pretty serious about it. These days most casinos don't enforce the rule when taking a picture of say a big jackpot on your own machine. I have taken pictures of rule screens from machines I was playing lots of times and seldom have issues. However, if you try to take video wandering about the casino, they will probably ask you to stop.

However, Indian casinos I have found to be very sensitive about photography. I wrote about an incident where I was chased down by security and blocked from leaving my parking space over taking an exterior picture of the casino.

Regarding this case, I'd like to hear the casino point of view but I didn't see anything in that one image that showed anything that looked like it paid much. If nothing happened to add up to a win that big, I probably would take the casino's side.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Ncell

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November 6th, 2015 at 3:15:27 PM permalink

Working for a slot machine company, I've never seen a nickel machine that comes close to that amount, so I suspect it to be an error too. Also, a true jackpot of that size would have immediately locked the machine and lit the attendant light on top. There's no way it would pay directly to the machine, as it would require extensive paperwork for taxes.

In my opinion, deep down she knows it's a glitch and she's desperately trying to cling to the money. I have to side with the casino on this also.

Wizard
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November 6th, 2015 at 3:29:43 PM permalink

I have a feeling this might be an "unsigned integer" problem. When creating the game I think they had a variable they thought could never go negative, so declared it to be "unsigned." If said variable is zero, and you subtract 1 from it, then it goes around to the extreme maximum value.

Notice the number of credits is 171,774,993. This is in nickels, which comes to $8,588,749.65. 2^33 is 8,589,934,592. It is common for the maximum value of an integer to be some power of 2. I think the maximum value was 8,589,934,591. If this were a count of tenths of pennies, the maximum cash value would be $ 8,581,345,842. This is 1185 less than the $8,588,749.65 balance shown in the picture. Maybe I don't have the details right but I would bet it comes down to the problem of trying to store a negative number in a variable that is declared as "unsigned."

A slot machine should not have a reason for negative numbers so there is obviously some bad programming here. However, if it were my decision, I would say this falls under a "malfunction" and side with the casino.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

GWAE

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November 6th, 2015 at 4:54:19 PM permalink

Wow that post made my mind explode. Reminds me why I never became an engineer.

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miplet

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November 6th, 2015 at 5:06:31 PM permalink

Just a reminder that this is in Washington State, so it's either pull tabs or bingo. The highest progressive that I have seen in Washington was about $1 million.

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MrV

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November 6th, 2015 at 5:09:10 PM permalink

Quote: Dodsferd
Offer a meal or something as well. Food takes the mind off of troubles for most.

Not the buffet at the Lucky Eagle!

"What, me worry?"

Kentry

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November 6th, 2015 at 5:21:40 PM permalink

There was a story on the news where a woman's slot machine read "Winner of 42 million dollars!" She was understably happy and was quickly furious when the Casino said it was a malfunction and would not pay 42 million dollars. The machine itself even said the highest possible amount was $200,000. They offered her the $200,000. Her response was to be belligerent and still demand the 42 million dollars. They lowered the offer to $20 and a free breakfast. She should have just taken the $200,000 and be happy with that.

MathExtremist

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November 6th, 2015 at 5:39:54 PM permalink

I think you mean this one:
http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/supreme-court-upholds-dismissed-waterloo-casino-payout-case/article_0d0b2521-4c5c-5393-86c3-efcdd7edcadc.html

To my knowledge, the casino never offered her 200k. The Iowa Supreme Court decision has a lot of background information, including details of many other malfunction cases from around the country:

http://law.justia.com/cases/iowa/supreme-court/2015/140802.html

Notably, the courts in that cases did not even address the issue of malfunction. The player lost on other grounds in summary judgment (affirmed by the state Supreme Court).

"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

DRich

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November 6th, 2015 at 7:43:12 PM permalink

Quote: miplet
Just a reminder that this is in Washington State, so it's either pull tabs or bingo. The highest progressive that I have seen in Washington was about $1 million.

Exactly. In Washington games are not "random".

At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.

coilman

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November 7th, 2015 at 2:37:20 AM permalink

I think it that was my mother...... she would die of a heart attack.

Going from Fifth Ave NY to Fifth St Detroit in a matter of minutes at her age she wouldnt make it

GWAE

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November 7th, 2015 at 4:19:21 AM permalink

There is definitely video. It was on NBC Today show this morning. The winning game did not look very winning. No 5oaks at all.

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Dean

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November 7th, 2015 at 7:11:37 AM permalink

The woman should have known an 8.5 million jackpot was a malfunction. The only slot machines that give that much money are the Megabucks Slot progressives, and they are dollar machines, not nickel machines. The $80 the Casino sent her in a check is a joke, and not the funny kind either, as she may have played $400 in that machine before getting that dreaded 8.5 million malfunction. The right thing for the casino to have done since it's not the player's fault if the machine malfunctions on its own is give her $8,500, or $80,500, a reasonable compromise for both her and the Casino.

The Casino needs to pay her what I just suggested, or risk her bad mouthing the Casino to potential gamblers,("Hey, Tina, don't play at this Casino. Their machine told me that I won 8.5 million, and they refused to pay me all those millions because of a malfunction. All they gave me was $80." Tina "Okay, wow. Thanks for the heads up. I'm not going to be putting my money in that Casino, that's for sure!" thus, losing them money in the long run. A payment of $8,500 or $80,500 would show good faith from the Casino,($8,500 or $80,500 is really not all that much money for a Casino to give, considering that many people are losing $5,000 on a constant basis anyway, if just 20 people lose $5,000, that is already $100,000 and the Casino is still ahead by about $19,000, if they go with the $80,500, and up about $91,000 if they go with the $8,500 one and she gets happy

Really, dude, you tried to buy a flat screen TV for only $3.99? Get out of here, you scam, con arist!

Wizard
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November 7th, 2015 at 7:21:51 AM permalink

Quote: Dean
The $80 the Casino sent her in a check is a joke, and not the funny kind either, as she may have played $400 in that machine before getting that dreaded 8.5 million malfunction. The right thing for the casino to have done since it's not the player's fault if the machine malfunctions on its own is give her $8,500, or $80,500, a reasonable compromise for both her and the Casino.

I think she'll get more than that in a settlement. We'll probably never know, but I think this will settle out of court for about $100,000. I do agree the $80 is insulting. Had I been in charge, I would have offered about $5,000 if she signed a non-disclosure and release of all claims, and been willing to go higher if pushed.

There is supposed to be a piece on this on the Today Show this morning but I'm probably not going to wait around for it. Hopefully it will make the Today web site.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Dodsferd

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November 7th, 2015 at 7:43:55 AM permalink

Quote: Wizard
I think she'll get more than that in a settlement. We'll probably never know, but I think this will settle out of court for about $100,000. I do agree the $80 is insulting. Had I been in charge, I would have offered about $5,000 if she signed a non-disclosure and release of all claims, and been willing to go higher if pushed.

There is supposed to be a piece on this on the Today Show this morning but I'm probably not going to wait around for it. Hopefully it will make the Today web site.

With the publicity, it may indeed go in her favour. Given that the machine clearly indicates that all malfunctions void pays, she's entitled to nothing. The settlement at this point would be a PR call, more than any wrong doing. I agree that $80 is silly, and probably actually hurts the case, but in the end, she didn't win $8.5m, nor is she entitled to any volume of cash from that machine.

This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.

MrV

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November 7th, 2015 at 9:53:23 AM permalink

That tribe is notoriously tight.

She'll probably get little if anything more: the machine clearly malfunctioned.

The joint is always busy, what do they care about a little bad publicity?

Their clientele of drunks, farmers, retirees and meth-heads will return, regardless.

"What, me worry?"

Wizard
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November 7th, 2015 at 11:26:22 AM permalink

When I threw out the number $100,000 I forgot it was a tribal casino. Any claim she brings against the casino will probably be decided by the same tribe that owns the casino. If the tribe decides to be nice, they might offer $5,000 to shut up and go away. However, they will probably fight it on principle and she will get jack squat.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Mission146

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November 7th, 2015 at 3:27:06 PM permalink

In my Article Comments, Romes and I seem to generally agree that something along the Lines of paying her the Top Line Pay multiplied by the number of Lines paid and number of credits bet would be appropriate.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219

MrV

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November 7th, 2015 at 3:43:12 PM permalink

She should get no more than the outcome of her play, as shown by the placement of the symbols on the game screen, entitles her to.

Should be simple for the casino to compare a screen shot to the game's pay table.

"What, me worry?"

GWAE

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November 7th, 2015 at 7:18:45 PM permalink

Quote: MrV
She should get no more than the outcome of her play, as shown by the placement of the symbols on the game screen, entitles her to.

Should be simple for the casino to compare a screen shot to the game's pay table.

But if there is an error somewhere, who is to say that it was the screen symbols that are wrong and the payout is correct. As long as the payout was even a possibility.

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Wizard
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November 7th, 2015 at 8:46:39 PM permalink

Quote: GWAE
But if there is an error somewhere, who is to say that it was the screen symbols that are wrong and the payout is correct. As long as the payout was even a possibility.

Interesting point. That would be a good measure to cap any maximum award. However, the way slots work is to first draw random numbers, then assign them to positions on a reel strip, then to score where the reels stop. In other words, it is the reels that determine the win, not the other way around (except in class II slots and pull-tab games).

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

Ncell

Ncell

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Joined: Nov 2, 2013

November 8th, 2015 at 2:13:40 AM permalink

Quote: DRich
Exactly. In Washington games are not "random".

Washington recently (6-8 months ago) allowed Class III gaming for certain tribes, it appears, so it's possible this was a random machine

Wizard
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