In regard to "RNG" - Illinois Gaming Machines

I posted this on another forum under the betting systems - but thought I'd pop it over here under the 'slots' forum - any help appreciated!!!

Hello everyone - I'm new to these forums and my question is in regard to the ever popular RNG - Random Generator Number - here in Illinois we have seen an absolute BOOM of 'gaming cafes' in which establishements are allowed to have "5 machines" which have slots and video poker on them. The machines we have are by IGT or WMS or Illinois Pick and Play .... the games consist of Golden Goddess, Shadow Panther, Wild Wolf, Candy Bars, Dangeous Beauty, Olympus, The Wild Life, Etc Etc ..

I'm constantly overhearing fellow players about how they "STOPPED" the reels to 'get the bonus' or to 'win big' ... or 'catch a wild' ... they are ADAMANT that THAT is the key to winning ... STOPPING THE REELS at 'just the right time ...' - I usually just sit and listen to them and their tall tales as I believe that the RNG is already decided once the spin button is hit - when you 'STOP' the reels - all you are doing is ending the animation of the game and displaying the outcome whether it's a winning combo or a losing combo ...

Can anyone out there give me a concrete answer WHO IS RIGHT and WHO IS WRONG ?! I would think that if a player could develop and have enough "skill" to STOP the reels at just the right moment that there would be a LOT of rich people walking around with gamblin' winnings ..... ha ha !!!!!

Thanks for listenin' and any answers you can provide !!! :)

You are right but I can't tell you how to prove it to the disbelievers. Maybe someone can. In the meantime search this site. There is a lot here about this very subject. Oh where are my manners? Welcome to the forum!

Delete your duplicate post so we're all on the same page when responding.

You are correct. Stopping the wheels has no affect on the machine. The decision of what is going to happen on the reels is made right when you push the spin button. Everything else after that is just animation for entertainment purposes, which obviously seems to be working just as planned for those you are referring to.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

The decision of what is going to happen on the reels is made right when you push the spin button. Everything else after that is just animation for entertainment purposes.

A RNG divides a second into somewhere around 15,000 microseconds and therefore a RNG chooses 15,000 numbers per second. IF someone presses the little red button during this time, the most recently selected number is chosen. Then there is a period of bells and whistles and lights and cutesy graphics and the reel stops at a point chosen by that pre-selected random number. The bells whistles lights and graphics are meaningless and have no decisional effect.

Note: technically its not RNG its Pseudo-RNG but it seems that pseudo RNG is random enough except for purist mathematicians who can argue all night about it.

Note: technically it is ONE RNG per reel.

Welcome aboard.

Quote: FleaStiff

Note: technically it is ONE RNG per reel.

Huh???

I didn't know that but I'm no expert. When it comes to slots I'm just the opposite.

The nano second after you push the button,
your fate is sealed. When the reels and
graphics make it look like you 'almost' won,
it's an illusion. The casino wants you to push
the button again.

Imagine if there were no graphics or reels and
as soon as you pushed the button, the screen
said Win or Lose and gave the amount. No
flashing lights, no sounds, no nothing. The
results would be exactly the same as a regular
machine, but how long would you play? You're
there for the show, to get entertained and
maybe even win. Though not likely..

I posted this earlier on another post ...

"Any speculation on how the Russians could cheat an Aristocrat Mark VI slot machine and profit by it?
What happened to RNG?


My guess is they played at a minimum level and recorded outcomes and then relayed the result to the folks at home for analysis. At any rate it make one think that there may be some credibility in RNG not being so R. HMMMMM"


and it didn't get much of a response. But I have to believe that from the fact that they were arrested that there must be a flaw in the random number generator on these machines. So the thinking about the way machines work may be in question.

Quote: BobVB

I posted this earlier on another post ...

"Any speculation on how the Russians could cheat an Aristocrat Mark VI slot machine and profit by it?
What happened to RNG?

http://www.fbi.gov/stlouis/press-releases/2014/four-russian-nationals-indicted-on-fraud-charges

My guess is they played at a minimum level and recorded outcomes and then relayed the result to the folks at home for analysis. At any rate it make one think that there may be some credibility in RNG not being so R. HMMMMM"


and it didn't get much of a response. But I have to believe that from the fact that they were arrested that there must be a flaw in the random number generator on these machines. So the thinking about the way machines work may be in question.

It wasn't completely random in some way. Humans still program these machines. Sometimes they screw up. They could also have deviously programmed it that way intentionally. Unfortunately the details are a bit vague right now.

Quote: DRich

Huh???

On a five reel slot the RNG is just called five times right?

Quote: BobVB

"Any speculation on how the Russians could cheat an Aristocrat Mark VI slot machine and profit by it?

If the algorithm - the formula - is known for the machines, then someone can predict new numbers by knowing previous numbers. The "slot buster" Ron Harris was able to do this, he knew that the same algorithm he was familiar with was being used in AC for Keno.

I can see how you could do this for Keno, but slot machines seem a tougher nut to crack.

BTW a computer cannot generate a random number, it functions by obeying commands slavishly and can't be original. But it can use a list of random numbers and a method of making predictable patterns impossible. Unless you know the algorithm used.

Quote: GamblingMermaid

I posted this on another forum under the betting systems - but thought I'd pop it over here under the 'slots' forum - any help appreciated!!!

Hello everyone - I'm new to these forums and my question is in regard to the ever popular RNG - Random Generator Number - here in Illinois we have seen an absolute BOOM of 'gaming cafes' in which establishements are allowed to have "5 machines" which have slots and video poker on them. The machines we have are by IGT or WMS or Illinois Pick and Play .... the games consist of Golden Goddess, Shadow Panther, Wild Wolf, Candy Bars, Dangeous Beauty, Olympus, The Wild Life, Etc Etc ..

I'm constantly overhearing fellow players about how they "STOPPED" the reels to 'get the bonus' or to 'win big' ... or 'catch a wild' ... they are ADAMANT that THAT is the key to winning ... STOPPING THE REELS at 'just the right time ...' - I usually just sit and listen to them and their tall tales as I believe that the RNG is already decided once the spin button is hit - when you 'STOP' the reels - all you are doing is ending the animation of the game and displaying the outcome whether it's a winning combo or a losing combo ...

Can anyone out there give me a concrete answer WHO IS RIGHT and WHO IS WRONG ?! I would think that if a player could develop and have enough "skill" to STOP the reels at just the right moment that there would be a LOT of rich people walking around with gamblin' winnings ..... ha ha !!!!!

Thanks for listenin' and any answers you can provide !!! :)

That STOP THE REELS feature you are talking about is specifically designed to speed the game up for impatient players. It has no effect on the outcome. You will actually lose more money in the long run by using it in a negative expectation game simply because you are making a bigger wager per minute, hour, etc.

edit: The ones using it are hitting line pays at a faster rate simply because they are playing faster.

Quote: tringlomane

On a five reel slot the RNG is just called five times right?

Probably not - it is called once, and the results of the five reels are determined from that.

For example, if there are 100 stops on each reel, then a number from 0 to 100⁵ - 1 (which is 9,999,999,999) is generated. This is treated as:
(a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 1) x 100⁴
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100³
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100²
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 5).

The number of stops on each reel does not have to be the same. If there are N₁ stops for reel 1, N₂ stops for reel 2, and so on through N₅ stops for reel 5, then:
Generate a number R from 0 to (N₁ x N₂ x N₃ x N₄ x N₅) - 1
Divide this by (N₂ x N₃ x N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 1
Divide the remainder by (N₃ x N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 2
Divide this remainder by (N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 3
Divide this remainder by N₅ and round down; this is the stop number for reel 4, and the remainder is the stop number for reel 5.

Quote: tringlomane

On a five reel slot the RNG is just called five times right?

There are many ways to do it but I would say they is the most common.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Probably not - it is called once, and the results of the five reels are determined from that.

For example, if there are 100 stops on each reel, then a number from 0 to 100⁵ - 1 (which is 9,999,999,999) is generated. This is treated as:
(a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 1) x 100⁴
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100³
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100²
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 5).

The number of stops on each reel does not have to be the same. If there are N₁ stops for reel 1, N₂ stops for reel 2, and so on through N₅ stops for reel 5, then:
Generate a number R from 0 to (N₁ x N₂ x N₃ x N₄ x N₅) - 1
Divide this by (N₂ x N₃ x N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 1
Divide the remainder by (N₃ x N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 2
Divide this remainder by (N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 3
Divide this remainder by N₅ and round down; this is the stop number for reel 4, and the remainder is the stop number for reel 5.

Either I don't understand your logic or it is completely wrong. Please provide an example.

Quote: DRich

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Probably not - it is called once, and the results of the five reels are determined from that.

For example, if there are 100 stops on each reel, then a number from 0 to 100⁵ - 1 (which is 9,999,999,999) is generated. This is treated as:
(a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 1) x 100⁴
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100³
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100²
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 2) x 100
+ (a random number from 0 to 99, for reel 5).

The number of stops on each reel does not have to be the same. If there are N₁ stops for reel 1, N₂ stops for reel 2, and so on through N₅ stops for reel 5, then:
Generate a number R from 0 to (N₁ x N₂ x N₃ x N₄ x N₅) - 1
Divide this by (N₂ x N₃ x N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 1
Divide the remainder by (N₃ x N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 2
Divide this remainder by (N₄ x N₅) and round down; this is the stop number for reel 3
Divide this remainder by N₅ and round down; this is the stop number for reel 4, and the remainder is the stop number for reel 5.

Either I don't understand your logic or it is completely wrong. Please provide an example.

What he's saying is that suppose random number 1234567890 was the one selected, then reel 1 would use stop 12, reel 2 would use stop 34, reel 3 would use 56, reel 4 would use 78, and reel 5 would use stop 90.

Quote: DRich

Either I don't understand your logic or it is completely wrong. Please provide an example.

I'll use the 5 100-stop reels as an example.
The random number is an integer from 0 to 9,999,999,999 (i.e. 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 - 1) inclusive.
Let's say the number is 1,234,567,890.
Divide this by (100 x 100 x 100 x 100); you get 12.3456789, which rounds down to 12.
The remainder is 34,567,890.
Divide 34,567,890 by (100 x 100 x 100); you get 34.56789, which rounds down to 34.
The remainder is 567,890.
Divide 567,890 by (100 x 100); you get 56.789, which rounds down to 56.
The remainder is 7890.
Divide 7890 by 100; you get 78.9, which rounds down to 78.
The remainder is 90.
The five numbers are 12, 34, 56, 78, and 90.

You can also do this "backwards";
Start with 1,234,567,890.
Divide by N₅, which is 100; you get quotient 12,345,678 and remainder 90, so the first number is 90.
Divide 12,345,678 by N₄, which is 100; you get quotient 123,456 and remainder 78, so the second number is 78.
Divide 123,456 by N₃, which is 100; you get quotient 1234 and remainder 56, so the third number is 56.
Divide 1234 by N₂. which is 100; you get quotient 12 and remainder 34, so the fourth number is 34.
The fifth number is 12.
The five numbers - 12, 34, 56, 78, and 90 - are the same, but in reverse order.

Having the software draw 5 random numbers from 0 to 99 isn't usually possible as, while the first number is based on an "unpredictable event" - i.e. when you pushed the "spin" button - the others are generated based on a pattern of some sort, and there usually isn't a way to guarantee that each number from 0 to 99 is equally likely to appear for each of the four remaining nmbers.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

I'll use the 5 100-stop reels as an example.
The random number is an integer from 0 to 9,999,999,999 (i.e. 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 - 1) inclusive.
Let's say the number is 1,234,567,890.
Divide this by (100 x 100 x 100 x 100); you get 12.3456789, which rounds down to 12.
The remainder is 34,567,890.
Divide 34,567,890 by (100 x 100 x 100); you get 34.56789, which rounds down to 34.
The remainder is 567,890.
Divide 567,890 by (100 x 100); you get 56.789, which rounds down to 56.
The remainder is 7890.
Divide 7890 by 100; you get 78.9, which rounds down to 78.
The remainder is 90.
The five numbers are 12, 34, 56, 78, and 90.

You can also do this "backwards";
Start with 1,234,567,890.
Divide by N₅, which is 100; you get quotient 12,345,678 and remainder 90, so the first number is 90.
Divide 12,345,678 by N₄, which is 100; you get quotient 123,456 and remainder 78, so the second number is 78.
Divide 123,456 by N₃, which is 100; you get quotient 1234 and remainder 56, so the third number is 56.
Divide 1234 by N₂. which is 100; you get quotient 12 and remainder 34, so the fourth number is 34.
The fifth number is 12.
The five numbers - 12, 34, 56, 78, and 90 - are the same, but in reverse order.

Having the software draw 5 random numbers from 0 to 99 isn't usually possible as, while the first number is based on an "unpredictable event" - i.e. when you pushed the "spin" button - the others are generated based on a pattern of some sort, and there usually isn't a way to guarantee that each number from 0 to 99 is equally likely to appear for each of the four remaining nmbers.

I understand what you are doing now but i would sure hate to have to draw 20 keno numbers with that method.

I can tell you that most of the games I have done I have drawn consecutive random numbers and have never had a problem passing all of the tests that Nevada Gaming and the major testing laboratories use.

Quote: GamblingMermaid

I'm constantly overhearing fellow players about how they "STOPPED" the reels to 'get the bonus' or to 'win big' ... or 'catch a wild' ... they are ADAMANT that THAT is the key to winning ... STOPPING THE REELS at 'just the right time ...I believe that the RNG is already decided once the spin button is hit - when you 'STOP' the reels - all you are doing is ending the animation...

Can anyone out there give me a concrete answer WHO IS RIGHT and WHO IS WRONG ?!

Ok, I imagine this response isn't going to go well... but immediately after posting it, I am going to walk over to the casino and record video proof so when I get back later, I can verify if anyone is hatin or in doubt. I really like you guys and your full of wise information. I usually just read the forums and have been for years but never registered or participated until now... And that is because I must answer this question as it has been misunderstood, as it seems...

Please listen carefully... On every standard casino machine, when you stop the reels by hitting the button, yes it just stops the animation and does not impact the outcome at all... At least not in any observable or skillful way.. HOWEVER, here in Montana we have the same machine you are referring to in Illinois, it is made by IGT.... Please read further...

On this particularly unpopular machine (one of my favorites though) most casinos in MT have 0 or 1 tops, any place crazy enough to have 2 has 1 removed before too long... That is because on this particular machine and THIS MACHINE ONLY... Stopping the reels does... I repeat DOES actually cause the reel to stop at exactly that moment and will effect the outcome entirely... What I am telling you is this... If you are on alot of speed and have panther reflexes and focus really really hard and you manage to stop the reel at just the right moment, you can trigger the bonus when the bonus would have normally not triggered on its own... Equally, you can miss the bonus when the bonus would have triggered on its own...

ITS ONLY TRUE ON THIS ONE MACHINE THOUGH... and landing the hits is nearly impossible to master. Usually, you are far better off just letting the machine run on its own. But there have been a few lucky moments where I have pressed the button at just the right time and triggered huge jackpots... But its so hard to achieve that its more likely you will waste money attempting it and extremely less likely you will master it in time to gain any real profit back. I just let the machine run on its own, but just wanted to correct everyone here and let you know that on this ONE machine, this claim is actually true...

Now, I will head to the casino across the street, they have 1 of these machines, I will sit down and record a video for proof. Love you guys. <3 Nice to meet you btw.

Quote: swentz101

Ok, I imagine this response isn't going to go well... but immediately after posting it, I am going to walk over to the casino and record video proof so when I get back later, I can verify if anyone is hatin or in doubt. I really like you guys and your full of wise information. I usually just read the forums and have been for years but never registered or participated until now... And that is because I must answer this question as it has been misunderstood, as it seems...

Please listen carefully... On every standard casino machine, when you stop the reels by hitting the button, yes it just stops the animation and does not impact the outcome at all... At least not in any observable or skillful way.. HOWEVER, here in Montana we have the same machine you are referring to in Illinois, it is made by IGT.... Please read further...

On this particularly unpopular machine (one of my favorites though) most casinos in MT have 0 or 1 tops, any place crazy enough to have 2 has 1 removed before too long... That is because on this particular machine and THIS MACHINE ONLY... Stopping the reels does... I repeat DOES actually cause the reel to stop at exactly that moment and will effect the outcome entirely... What I am telling you is this... If you are on alot of speed and have panther reflexes and focus really really hard and you manage to stop the reel at just the right moment, you can trigger the bonus when the bonus would have normally not triggered on its own... Equally, you can miss the bonus when the bonus would have triggered on its own...

ITS ONLY TRUE ON THIS ONE MACHINE THOUGH... and landing the hits is nearly impossible to master. Usually, you are far better off just letting the machine run on its own. But there have been a few lucky moments where I have pressed the button at just the right time and triggered huge jackpots... But its so hard to achieve that its more likely you will waste money attempting it and extremely less likely you will master it in time to gain any real profit back. I just let the machine run on its own, but just wanted to correct everyone here and let you know that on this ONE machine, this claim is actually true...

Now, I will head to the casino across the street, they have 1 of these machines, I will sit down and record a video for proof. Love you guys. <3 Nice to meet you btw.

It's cool that you think that and enjoy the perceived challenge. Unfortunately, it's not true. I've personally seen the par sheets and game play statistics for hundreds of IGT games. Not one of them has the feature your describe.

ZCore13

You must be making a lot of bank deposits, but if you're not, your story is true, but the facts are wrong. Usually the reply is you are not at an advantage stopping reels, but losing less. Even if that's true, still winding up flat broke and losing more by playing more. You can try other things in life I say.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

I'll use the 5 100-stop reels as an example.
The random number is an integer from 0 to 9,999,999,999 (i.e. 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 x 100 - 1) inclusive.
Let's say the number is 1,234,567,890.
Divide this by (100 x 100 x 100 x 100); you get 12.3456789, which rounds down to 12.
The remainder is 34,567,890.
Divide 34,567,890 by (100 x 100 x 100); you get 34.56789, which rounds down to 34.
The remainder is 567,890.
Divide 567,890 by (100 x 100); you get 56.789, which rounds down to 56.
The remainder is 7890.
Divide 7890 by 100; you get 78.9, which rounds down to 78.
The remainder is 90.
The five numbers are 12, 34, 56, 78, and 90.

You can also do this "backwards";
Start with 1,234,567,890.
Divide by N₅, which is 100; you get quotient 12,345,678 and remainder 90, so the first number is 90.
Divide 12,345,678 by N₄, which is 100; you get quotient 123,456 and remainder 78, so the second number is 78.
Divide 123,456 by N₃, which is 100; you get quotient 1234 and remainder 56, so the third number is 56.
Divide 1234 by N₂. which is 100; you get quotient 12 and remainder 34, so the fourth number is 34.
The fifth number is 12.
The five numbers - 12, 34, 56, 78, and 90 - are the same, but in reverse order.

Having the software draw 5 random numbers from 0 to 99 isn't usually possible as, while the first number is based on an "unpredictable event" - i.e. when you pushed the "spin" button - the others are generated based on a pattern of some sort, and there usually isn't a way to guarantee that each number from 0 to 99 is equally likely to appear for each of the four remaining nmbers.

So each reel decision is not based directly off of the other reels decisions. I have heard the wizard mention this as well as you now, but both of you have mentioned this for five reel machines. I was wondering if this carries over to the standard three reel machines as well? I understand your concept fully, but for simple terms, this basically means any reel can hit any symbol at anytime regardless what the other reels have chosen?

Every game I've ever dealt with draws 5 random numbers, one for each reel.
The reels are always independent.
"Mechanical" games work the same way. They just use physical reels instead of a monitor to display the results. There is a stepper motor spinning those reels and the program just tells it where to stop.
Just like DRich, I've seen hundreds of IGT par sheets and none have a skill element based on stopping the reels.

Quote: DRich

I can tell you that most of the games I have done I have drawn consecutive random numbers and have never had a problem passing all of the tests that Nevada Gaming and the major testing laboratories use.

Pardon me for asking, but what RNG method do you use?

I admit that I don't know enough about random numbers as I would like (most of what I know comes from Knuth volume 2), but obviously you can't use the "multiply the previous number by some constant, add another constant, take the result modulo the periodicity, and take that value modulo your range of numbers" method as the order of the numbers never changes. I assume you can get the numbers from the leftmost or middle bits of the generated larger number, but I don't know how to test the randomness of that.