Downtown slots pay back 11.61% more than the Strip.
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 | 8 votes (20.51%) | ||
| | 3 votes (7.69%) | ||
| | 22 votes (56.41%) | ||
| | 6 votes (15.38%) |
39 members have voted
September 14th, 2013 at 4:11:34 PM
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Here is a picture of a sign I noticed downtown last week. Is it just me, or are you bothered by this use of statistics? The way I would interpret this is the return percentage on downtown slots average 11.61% more than the Strip. For example, this would hold true if the Strip slots returned 85.00%, and downtown 96.61%.
According to the Nevada Gaming Control board Gaming Revenue Report, for the 12-month period from 1/1/2010 to 12/31/21 downtown slots held 6.37% (page 8), and 7.22% (page 12) for the Strip. In other words, downtown slots paid 0.85% more.
What I think the makers of this sign are trying to say is that the ratio of the house edge of downtown slots to Strip slots is 88.39%. In other words, you can expect to lose 11.61% less money than you would on the Strip, given the same amount of play. If we look at the numbers above we would bet 1-0.0637/0.0722 = 11.77%. Perhaps they are excluding certain games, like Megabucks, or referring to the 2010 fiscal year.
The question for the poll is what do you think about the wording on the sign?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 14th, 2013 at 4:16:07 PM
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I think that this is fine wording, I have no problem with it.
Vote for Nobody 2020!
September 14th, 2013 at 4:18:57 PM
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I'm a bit bothered by it. But considering the people they are are trying to attract, they probably would think that is the correct answer. You really can't expect them to say, "you'll lose 11.77% less money by playing downtown than the strip!"
September 14th, 2013 at 4:20:36 PM
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It's deceptive, but unintentionally so. My first thought looking at that sign would be average edge 92% vs. average edge 81%, or something like that. I think that would be anyone's thought. The 11% clearly seems to refer to the handle paid out (most of it), not the juice, and only the kind of person who visits this forum would even think to think it might be otherwise. My guess would be it was originally something like "downtown slots keep 11% less," and some marketing genius who doesn't understand percentages changed it to a "more positive" lie.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
September 14th, 2013 at 4:25:14 PM
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If the correct answer is 0.85 percent then I don't see why they are advertising this 11.something percent figure.Quote: WizardGaming Revenue Report for the 12-month period from 1/1/2010 to 12/31/21 downtown slots held 6.37% (page 8), and 7.22% (page 12) for the Strip. In other words, downtown slots paid 0.85% more.
In practical terms, Downtown slots return just as much as Strip slots and if you want to go chasing rabbits decimal points, it ain't worth the cab fare or shoe leather to get from one a Strip slot to a Downtown slot. One cocktail, one meal, one fight with the wife ... and any "difference" has utterly evaporated anyway. A cramped hotel room downtown or an impressive view on the strip can be "worth" more than 0.85 percent. A sense of security for a spouse is usually going to be valued at more than 0.85 percent anyway or the marriage is toast. So why even advertise the 0.85 percent much less the misleading and deceptive eleven something percent.
Of course the likely response is: Is Vegas Baby, Vegas!!
September 14th, 2013 at 4:26:53 PM
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I have no problem with the wording, it reads to me as a very specific claim stating that they pay that percentage more in cash money. If they made a claim such as, "Our slots have an 11.6x percent lower edge," then that would be a blatant lie. I might even have a problem with, "Our slots return 11.6x% more."
To me, "Pay back," just refers to actual cash returned and makes no direct reference to the house advantage, and is thus, a true statement.
To me, "Pay back," just refers to actual cash returned and makes no direct reference to the house advantage, and is thus, a true statement.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 14th, 2013 at 4:33:02 PM
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Quote: 24BingoThe 11% clearly seems to refer to the handle paid out (most of it), not the juice, and only the kind of person who visits this forum would even think to think it might be otherwise.
Based on the figures I quoted earlier, in 2010 the return percentages were:
Downtown: 93.63%
Strip: 92.78%
I don't see where we get anything like 11.61% from those figures.
Quote: Mission146To me, "Pay back," just refers to actual cash returned and makes no direct reference to the house advantage, and is thus, a true statement.
According to the Revenue Report I linked to, the total "win amount" (for the casinos) was $371,597,000 for downtown and $2,789,753,000 for the Strip. Doing a little math, the win amount (not deducting the original wagers) for the players would be $5,461,951,000 for downtown, and $38,849,485,000 for the Strip. In other words, the actual amount paid to players was 6.56 times more on the Strip, because the Strip has much a larger handle.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 14th, 2013 at 4:33:25 PM
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Would the average gambler who reads that sign after having visited a few casinos and received several complimentary beverages have your grasp of its meaning?Quote: Mission146I have no problem with the wording, ...
September 14th, 2013 at 4:56:39 PM
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Oh! I get to rock the boat :)
I'm bothered more by your wording, really. In your example, 96.61% is not 11.61% more than 85%, but rather 11.61 percentage points more. 11.61% of 85 being 9.8685, then 11.61% more would mean: 94.8685%. In other words, if a tax was raised from 10% to 20% would you say it went up 10%, or 100%?
As to the add: anyone who plays slots deserves everything they get (NOTE: the singular "they" is added maliciously <w>)
Quote: WizardHere is a picture of a sign I noticed downtown last week. Is it just me, or are you bothered by this use of statistics? The way I would interpret this is the return percentage on downtown slots average 11.61% more than the Strip. For example, this would hold true if the Strip slots returned 85.00%, and downtown 96.61%.
I'm bothered more by your wording, really. In your example, 96.61% is not 11.61% more than 85%, but rather 11.61 percentage points more. 11.61% of 85 being 9.8685, then 11.61% more would mean: 94.8685%. In other words, if a tax was raised from 10% to 20% would you say it went up 10%, or 100%?
As to the add: anyone who plays slots deserves everything they get (NOTE: the singular "they" is added maliciously <w>)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 14th, 2013 at 5:03:13 PM
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Quote: NareedIn other words, if a tax was raised from 10% to 20% would you say it went up 10%, or 100%?
As to the add: anyone who plays slots deserves everything they get (NOTE: the singular "they" is added maliciously <w>)
Good point, and I think the advertisement could be defended if it referred to "hold," but I don't see a justification for the claim in terms of payback.
And by the way, the slot figures do include video poker, which can routinely be an advantage play.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
September 14th, 2013 at 5:09:01 PM
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What we think doesn't count, we aren't average players.
This sign is directed at the massively misinformed, to make
them think Downtown has the Strip beat by miles. I'm sure
it works, too.
This sign is directed at the massively misinformed, to make
them think Downtown has the Strip beat by miles. I'm sure
it works, too.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 14th, 2013 at 5:15:39 PM
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Quote: gpac1377Good point, and I think the advertisement could be defended if it referred to "hold," but I don't see a justification for the claim in terms of payback.
In my experience, the figure can likely be proved one way or another and is even more likely to be misleading. Kind of the way government sees an increase in expenditures from, say $2.5 trillion to $3 trillion as a 10% reduction because they wanted to spend $3.3 trillion originally.
Quote:And by the way, the slot figures do include video poker, which can routinely be an advantage play.
Very good point. I tend to consider slots as separate from VP (I think many here do as well). But Downtown does have much better VP offerings than the Strip (and some bad ones as well).
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 14th, 2013 at 5:18:45 PM
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Quote: WizardDoing a little math, the win amount (not deducting the original wagers) for the players would be $5,461,951,000 for downtown, and $38,849,485,000 for the Strip. In other words, the actual amount paid to players was 6.56 times more on the Strip, because the Strip has much a larger handle.
Quote: EvenBobWhat we think doesn't count, we aren't average players.
This sign is directed at the massively misinformed, to make
them think Downtown has the Strip beat by miles. I'm sure
it works, too.
Obviously the Strip should counterattack by claiming it pays back 656% more than Downtown :)
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
September 14th, 2013 at 6:07:03 PM
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I agree with you, I think the 11.61% is some version of 11.77%.
Assuming that, they're comparing holds, not payback, and it should say as much. But you neither eluded to, nor do I think, it verges on being illegal. I don't expect any better from casinos, as with politics, they can make any statistic say what they want it to say.
Assuming that, they're comparing holds, not payback, and it should say as much. But you neither eluded to, nor do I think, it verges on being illegal. I don't expect any better from casinos, as with politics, they can make any statistic say what they want it to say.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
September 14th, 2013 at 7:12:10 PM
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Quote: NareedIn other words, if a tax was raised from 10% to 20% would you say it went up 10%, or 100%?
Good point.
Quote: EvenBobWhat we think doesn't count, we aren't average players.
This sign is directed at the massively misinformed, to make
them think Downtown has the Strip beat by miles. I'm sure
it works, too.
In my opinion it is the role of government to regulate truth in such advertising. The sign even claims it is based on the Gaming Revenue Report, so I think if it isn't obvious how the figure was calculated it should say so in the fine print.
I'm tempted to write a letter to Gaming about this, asking for clarification.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 14th, 2013 at 7:26:04 PM
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Quote: WizardI'm tempted to write a letter to Gaming about this, asking for clarification.
If you bring it to the attention of Gaming they will more than likely make them change the sign. They have regulations about false and misleading advertising.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
September 14th, 2013 at 7:28:37 PM
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Quote: Wizard
I'm tempted to write a letter to Gaming about this, asking for clarification.
They already hate you there, remember last time this happened?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 14th, 2013 at 7:43:25 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThey already hate you there, remember last time this happened?
So I have nothing to lose.
Quote: mickeycrimmIf you bring it to the attention of Gaming they will more than likely make them change the sign. They have regulations about false and misleading advertising.
I hope they do. You may recall my complaint about the Vegas Club, and Gaming is to be applauded for doing something about it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
September 14th, 2013 at 7:48:57 PM
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Quote: WizardSo I have nothing to lose.
Lol, exactly my point. I'd go for it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 14th, 2013 at 9:41:57 PM
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I voted that it was straightforward, because I felt I understood the statistic they were citing and it compared realistically with my experience. But I do see your point in how misleading it is as well. Go get 'em.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
September 14th, 2013 at 10:51:31 PM
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In case you meant that people who play slots are dumb for doing so. I think people who think way are very uneducated about gambling.Quote: NareedOh! I get to rock the boat :)
I'm bothered more by your wording, really. In your example, 96.61% is not
As to the add: anyone who plays slots deserves everything they get (NOTE: the singular "they" is added maliciously <w>)
There are many GOOD advantage plays on slots and keno (according to gr8player money management works on baccarat to) Some of the most successful AP's started off on slots.
Even some tourist's are better off on particular slots. Example: The other night I was playing next to some nice old lady on Video poker. She quickly lost her credits(she played horribly Double DW hold 2,2,2,5c,9h *double take* "gasp"). She asked if she could watch me play. I said,Yes. She explained she didn't know how to play Video poker. I pointed to a bank of slots that were 98%+ and told her she should play them slots and why they would be better for her, if she could afford to play dollars.
She wondered off for a bit. The next thing I know, I hear music playing, ♪♪dun dun dundun da♪♪, I look up and she is waving to me with a big smile on her face waiting on a 1k jackpot. God bless her, she deserved $evrything$ she got
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 14th, 2013 at 11:59:12 PM
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I think the regulations apply to licensees and key personnel. I don't know about civic groups such as Downtown Associations or the like.Quote: mickeycrimmThey have regulations about false and misleading advertising.
September 15th, 2013 at 12:11:46 AM
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Good for you. You have a certain knowledge of mathematics and statistics and you tested the figure as to reasonableness based upon your personal experience. Marvelous. Perhaps you were even stone cold sober at the time, well rested and not particularly distracted by flashing lights and other distracting influences.Quote: beachbumbabsbecause I felt I understood the statistic they were citing and it compared realistically with my experience.
Please consider the people streaming by the sign. What is their educational level? What is their sobriety level? And has that sobriety level been induced by the casinos under discussion?
Do you think the sign's text should be compared to what would be understood by a bright and beautiful woman with a good knowledge of statistics and gambling math or by the average person who would be reading that sign in their average condition of sobriety?
My view is that treking from the Strip to a Downtown slot machine ain't worth shoe leather or one fight with the wife. Rooms downtown are smaller (that is how they built hotels in those days) and darn few people rave about downtown views versus Strip views. So if the truth is "pennies" the advertisement should not imply "dollars". When you consider cost of transportation and time involved, it ain't worth it to trek to Downtown for any particular gambling reason simply because the difference is mere pennies.
September 15th, 2013 at 1:06:54 AM
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When the casinos say SLOTS they usually mean any machine and lump them all in one. Generally if they run a promotion they will specifically include or exclude one or the other if the have a preferences. IE: 100% slot rebate up to 100k.Quote: Nareed
Very good point. I tend to consider slots as separate from VP.
IE:100% rebate on video or reel slots only.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 15th, 2013 at 1:14:07 AM
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Depends on who you are. Once you have been to vegas a few times and seen everything on the strip, you can get more bang for your buck downtown.Quote: FleaStiffSo if the truth is "pennies" the advertisement should not imply "dollars". When you consider cost of transportation and time involved, it ain't worth it to trek to Downtown for any particular gambling reason simply because the difference is mere pennies.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 15th, 2013 at 3:04:16 AM
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Oh I quite agree. On my very first trip I found downtown to be far more exciting and to provide better value to me than The Strip. I admit that Circus Circus had the largest and best advertized buffet, but I actually enjoyed the downtown spreads more even though they were smaller and more limited. Less of a zoo atmosphere, better selections and since at the time I was quite partial to milk, downtown was better for me. And the drinks were stronger downtown in those days.Quote: AxelWolfDepends on who you are. Once you have been to vegas a few times and seen everything on the strip, you can get more bang for your buck downtown.
But the principle is still "pennies" versus "dollars"... the advertisements should be helpful not hype!
Now some people are "sharpies" and see through the hype, so they don't care about fundamental honesty for all viewers. I can understand that position, I just think that the law should embrace the vast mass of viewers who are going to be less than actuaries and less than sober.
September 15th, 2013 at 6:23:35 AM
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Quote: beachbumbabsI voted that it was straightforward, because I felt I understood the statistic they were citing and it compared realistically with my experience. But I do see your point in how misleading it is as well. Go get 'em.
At this point, the voting is evenly split. Half consider the ad deceiving. The other half consider it acceptable or don't care.
The claim is excessive by a factor of at least 10. An equivalent would be South Point advertising that it will award 300 cars in October drawings, guaranteed, when in fact they only plan to give out 25. Apparently many of you would be fine with that because the point remains that they're giving away a lot of cars.
Again, I'd love to see any theory of how the data in the report can be contorted to produce an 11.61% difference in payback.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
September 15th, 2013 at 7:43:02 AM
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I can't change my vote, but if I could, Fleastiff's arguments are enough to compel me to switch to, "It is a little deceiving." He basically used the same argument that I used when I stated that I had a problem with that Oklahoma Powerball, "Simulator," though this claim is a bit less egregious. Either way, arguing against Fleastiff would be the equivalent of arguing with my own points in that thread, so...
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
September 15th, 2013 at 4:58:40 PM
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I think "sharpies" are more likely to be the ones that do care. Since they know it's total bullshit and "sharpies" generally are the types of people who want advertising to be accurate. Especially when it comes to advertising promotions or slot percentages. I can see how this advertisement may work. some uneducated gambler may pass on roomers how much better gambling downtown is 11% better paybacks. It would work on me if I didn't know better.Quote: FleaStiff
Now some people are "sharpies" and see through the hype, so they don't care about fundamental honesty for all viewers. I can understand that position, I just think that the law should embrace the vast mass of viewers who are going to be less than actuaries and less than sober.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 15th, 2013 at 5:27:33 PM
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I would strongly agree with the Wizard. What caught my eye first was the sited date (2010) of the record. Certainly, the use of old information as an incentive to increase play today is purposely deceiving and unethical. I accessed the Nevada Gaming Control Board site and found reports that are current and relevant. The current (2013) reports indicated a similar trend in “Win Percentage”. I have to wonder if this sign is old and being recycled to curb global warming. Also, I find it deceiving to generalize information from something measured into a conclusion for something that wasn’t measured.
Using the information from the same report, couldn’t the Strip make the claim that their table game “payback” is 15.85% more than Downtown table games?
Comparing the oldest available (1989-1990) Gaming Revenue Reports to the current report, I noticed that the Strip’s Twenty-One “% win to drop” has fallen precipitously. I would associate this lose to unintended consequences of the change in Black Jack rules, high table minimums and the introduction of 6:5.
I hope I didn’t embarrass myself by entering into a statistics discussion with accomplished number people. I have to note, defensively, I was forced, against my will, to take, pass and enjoy three statistics courses related to social science research.
Using the information from the same report, couldn’t the Strip make the claim that their table game “payback” is 15.85% more than Downtown table games?
Comparing the oldest available (1989-1990) Gaming Revenue Reports to the current report, I noticed that the Strip’s Twenty-One “% win to drop” has fallen precipitously. I would associate this lose to unintended consequences of the change in Black Jack rules, high table minimums and the introduction of 6:5.
I hope I didn’t embarrass myself by entering into a statistics discussion with accomplished number people. I have to note, defensively, I was forced, against my will, to take, pass and enjoy three statistics courses related to social science research.
Let down the curtain; The farce is over.
September 15th, 2013 at 5:46:42 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfIn case you meant that people who play slots are dumb for doing so.
In case you're obsessed with me, please find someone else. Or better yet, how about a hobby?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 15th, 2013 at 5:52:00 PM
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Maybe the sign was out for the garbage collection and went to the wrong curb? lol...robbie made me say it!
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
September 15th, 2013 at 6:01:03 PM
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Quote: Mission146I can't change my vote, but if I could, Fleastiff's arguments are enough to compel me to switch to, "It is a little deceiving."
A great deal of advertising is deceiving. Most advertising making comparisons is, usually, more deceiving than normal. These are the kinds of things one learns by paying a little attention, after all. Also as a rule, the more strident the ad, the more deceptive it tends to be. In this case the comparison is too vague to be of any use anyway: which slots? Penny slots, dollar slots? Does it include VP or not? Which places Downtown?
In other words, do try to think a little and don't demand more nanny state intervention.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 15th, 2013 at 6:19:07 PM
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Quote: WizardIn my opinion it is the role of government to regulate truth in such advertising.
Quote: NareedIn other words, do try to think a little and don't demand more nanny state intervention.
OK, but while the government regulatory structure exists, I believe it's reasonable to try to focus it toward my advantage.
The misleading advertising doesn't affect me directly, but more generally, it can be harmful for players when casinos believe math is flexible.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
September 15th, 2013 at 6:57:56 PM
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Quote: gpac1377OK, but while the government regulatory structure exists, I believe it's reasonable to try to focus it toward my advantage.
No, it's not. It's that kind of thinking that breeds ever more regulations, which sets up a race by big companies to pass rules favorable to them and unfavorable to the competition. This in turn means influencing politicians through campaigns. This causes campaign finance regulations. Eventually you find out if you want to blog or hold meetings in favor or against an issue, you're regulated to the point where you're silenced.
Not to mention stifling competition, making it harder to break into an existing market, driving up prices, driving up taxes, etc.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 15th, 2013 at 7:16:22 PM
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Quote: NareedNo, it's not.
I'll concede the point. Certainly I agree with your general line of thinking.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
September 16th, 2013 at 4:10:55 AM
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Really? Obsession "PAAALEASE" , Your grasping at straws. What a egotistical childish response. I have never PMed you, I have never posted on, or read your blog, I have not asked you anything personal, I have not commented to you on 99% of your threads. In this case, I merely pointed the fact that playing slots may be a better bet in some cases, even +EV, especially for people that come to Vegas for entertainment. Since you had nothing, you cry Obsession.... PatheticQuote: NareedIn case you're obsessed with me, please find someone else. Or better yet, how about a hobby?
You have posted over 11 thousand times on a forum related to gambling with seemingly no real gambling knowledge, with mostly non gambling nonsense, while taking pot shots at AP's. Certainly you stick out like a sore thumb. With your 11k posts my iteration with you has been relatively low, so don't play that card. I would have said the same thing to anyone who posted what you did. I didn't target you, I target anything I disagree or agree with. Since posting here seems to be your hobby, It just so happens you post a lot of things I disagree with.
Possibly Ignore me.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
September 16th, 2013 at 4:39:43 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfReally?
You know what is said about people who protest too much.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 18th, 2013 at 9:01:16 PM
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there is a difference between a percentage point difference and a percent difference.
For example if your salkes tax goes up from 10 percent to 11 percent...it went up one percentage point....but went up also 10 percent.
people dont know the difference between percentage point increases and percent increases. Politicians will tell you that they propose to increase your sales tax by 1 percent.....but in reality it is going up 10 percent.
For example if your salkes tax goes up from 10 percent to 11 percent...it went up one percentage point....but went up also 10 percent.
people dont know the difference between percentage point increases and percent increases. Politicians will tell you that they propose to increase your sales tax by 1 percent.....but in reality it is going up 10 percent.
September 28th, 2013 at 5:07:10 PM
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Tough call.
September 28th, 2013 at 8:35:06 PM
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It is not just misleading, but it is a flat out lie.
The payback downtown is 93.63% and the payback on the strip is 92.78%. There are only two ways to compare these numbers:
1. Downtown pays 0.85 percentage points more than the strip.
2. Downtown pays 0.92% more than the strip (0.85/92.78).
An 11% reduction in hold cannot, in any way, be construed as an 11% increase in payback.
The payback downtown is 93.63% and the payback on the strip is 92.78%. There are only two ways to compare these numbers:
1. Downtown pays 0.85 percentage points more than the strip.
2. Downtown pays 0.92% more than the strip (0.85/92.78).
An 11% reduction in hold cannot, in any way, be construed as an 11% increase in payback.
I heart Crystal Math.
September 28th, 2013 at 10:22:12 PM
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??Quote: CrystalMathAn 11% reduction in hold cannot, in any way, be construed as an 11% increase in payback.
Reduction in slot hold has to result in an increase in payback. What other variable is there?
September 28th, 2013 at 11:15:25 PM
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Quote: FleaStiff??
Reduction in slot hold has to result in an increase in payback. What other variable is there?
It does cause an increase in payback. But the payback increase vs. the Strip is not 11% by the definition of payback. To be fully truthful, the ad should have said, "You'll lose 11.61% less on Downtown slots than the Strip!"
September 29th, 2013 at 8:50:00 AM
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So it is all about the right to stupidity.
The sign is factually correct (I assume they did the math right), BUT some stupid and / or drunk person might be deceived by it. Big deal.
Plus, I think the demographic you are worried about, Wizard, ist really small. Too stupid to understand the sign as it is printed, yet educated enough to know about return percentages in general and base their play on that.
The sign is factually correct (I assume they did the math right), BUT some stupid and / or drunk person might be deceived by it. Big deal.
Plus, I think the demographic you are worried about, Wizard, ist really small. Too stupid to understand the sign as it is printed, yet educated enough to know about return percentages in general and base their play on that.
September 29th, 2013 at 11:44:18 AM
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Quote: CanyoneroSo it is all about the right to stupidity.
The sign is factually correct (I assume they did the math right), BUT some stupid and / or drunk person might be deceived by it. Big deal.
Plus, I think the demographic you are worried about, Wizard, ist really small. Too stupid to understand the sign as it is printed, yet educated enough to know about return percentages in general and base their play on that.
No the sign is factually incorrect. If it was correct, we wouldn't have this thread in the first place. It is using a statistic incorrectly and in a misleading manner.
September 29th, 2013 at 2:45:05 PM
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Some signs in Vegas are more up front I will admit.
aahigh.com
September 29th, 2013 at 3:02:46 PM
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Now that's a sign I trust! :D
November 9th, 2013 at 10:24:24 PM
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I agree with Crystal Math that no matter how you spin it, downtown slots don't *pay back* anywhere near 11.61% more. While I think I see what they meant, they need to be more careful about their wording.
That said, isn't the real issue here the ambiguity of the phrase "11.61% more?" If downtown slots returned 90% and strip casinos returned 89%, I think downtown could honestly claim that the house edge is 10% higher on the strip than in downtown. If I wasn't already knowledgable on the subject, my immediate question would be "do they mean by a factor of 10% or a sum of 10%?" I believe that statement could mean either, and actually I'd guess the average person would think in terms of a factor, because that's how lay people encounter the expression most frequently: a 5% salary increase, a 2% drop in the S&P 500, 50% higher enrollment. Only when discussing a percent change in a quantity already expressed as a percent does it become possible that the change is being expressed as a sum rather than a factor.
That said, isn't the real issue here the ambiguity of the phrase "11.61% more?" If downtown slots returned 90% and strip casinos returned 89%, I think downtown could honestly claim that the house edge is 10% higher on the strip than in downtown. If I wasn't already knowledgable on the subject, my immediate question would be "do they mean by a factor of 10% or a sum of 10%?" I believe that statement could mean either, and actually I'd guess the average person would think in terms of a factor, because that's how lay people encounter the expression most frequently: a 5% salary increase, a 2% drop in the S&P 500, 50% higher enrollment. Only when discussing a percent change in a quantity already expressed as a percent does it become possible that the change is being expressed as a sum rather than a factor.
November 10th, 2013 at 12:52:17 AM
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Its deceptive... I'm one of those that think 96.61% vs. 85%. I might believe 111.61% as a base comparison 85% = 100% and Freemont St. pays 111.61% of that or ~94.87%. The key is "pays back". Anyone notice that the sign found in late 2013 references the 2010 Calendar year? So its old news, designed to subtly persuade you that the magic still exists. Besides the signage, any new magic acts appearing on Freemont? :P
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
November 10th, 2013 at 1:02:50 AM
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Quote: 98ClubsIts deceptive... I'm one of those that think 96.61% vs. 85%. I might believe 111.61% as a base comparison 85% = 100% and Freemont St. pays 111.61% of that or ~94.87%. The key is "pays back". Anyone notice that the sign found in late 2013 references the 2010 Calendar year? So its old news, designed to subtly persuade you that the magic still exists. Besides the signage, any new magic acts appearing on Freemont? :P
Doesn't matter about the 2010 data...it's still misleading. Downtown has NEVER paid back 11.61% more than the Strip, EVER. It's bad wording and is a nice semantics argument for the likes of us.
