Aristocrat Machines

I have spent many years in the past playing slits like Jacpot Party, Lucky Lemming, Hoot loot..thinkings its best for me to have control, and even being allowed to stop the spin early. Those machines pay very little in one lump sum. Hand payouts are almost non-existant. I am told that "stopping" a spin produces the same result as if you let it go(on these video games)....IS THAT TRUE??? I stopped playing those machines a fewe years ago.

also in the aristocrat machines like Buffalo, Timber wolves, 100 lions, meteors......my question is...on bonus free spins....is it like watching a movie....or is there really a "spin" going on with rng.

My feeling is that it is like a "movie". And my feeling is that the "movie" is different based on the denomination that you play.

For example I have won 300.00 playing 80 cents per spin on buffalo. But When I get the bonus on 8 dollars per spin.....I never received 3000.00(the expected equivalent). Neither myself or have i observed anyone else get that type of payout.

Does anyone else think that the set of free spins you get on one denomination would not be exactly the same had the higher denom had been played exactly at the same moment.


My last time I played jackpot party--i played 2dollars PER SPIN MAX....i got the bonus, picked the bonus multiplyer which was next pick at 10x(which is very rare)...next pick was DANCE BONUS...... the dance bonuse easily goes up above 10 dollars on small bets, above 20 dollars on medium bets.....but on max bet it went up to 6 dollars...paxying 6x10...60 dollars.

Quote: LarryS

I have spent many years in the past playing slits like Jacpot Party, Lucky Lemming, Hoot loot..thinkings its best for me to have control, and even being allowed to stop the spin early. Those machines pay very little in one lump sum. Hand payouts are almost non-existant. I am told that "stopping" a spin produces the same result as if you let it go(on these video games)....IS THAT TRUE??? I stopped playing those machines a fewe years ago.

That's correct, at the time that you press the, "Spin," or, "Repeat Bet," button, pull the handle (for those that have them) or what have you, the RNG draws the numbers which correspond to reel assignments and you get your result on the screen. Unless you are playing a Progressive machine at +ER (Expected Return), then all stopping the reels ahead of time accomplishes is you losing your money faster. That's not to say it changes the return of the machine, because it doesn't, just the faster you play a game at -ER, the faster you lose your money, over time.

Quote:

also in the aristocrat machines like Buffalo, Timber wolves, 100 lions, meteors......my question is...on bonus free spins....is it like watching a movie....or is there really a "spin" going on with rng.

I tend to believe that the RNG continues to draw numbers for each separate, "Free Game."

Quote:

My feeling is that it is like a "movie". And my feeling is that the "movie" is different based on the denomination that you play.

For example I have won 300.00 playing 80 cents per spin on buffalo. But When I get the bonus on 8 dollars per spin.....I never received 3000.00(the expected equivalent). Neither myself or have i observed anyone else get that type of payout.

Does anyone else think that the set of free spins you get on one denomination would not be exactly the same had the higher denom had been played exactly at the same moment.

The first thing that you should know is that your, "Expected equivalent," is EXTREMELY unlikely to be the Expected Return of Free Games from a $$$ standpoint. If you look at $300 on a bet of $0.80, then that is a return of 300/.80 = 375 times the initial bet, discluding the base pay. I find it very difficult to imagine that such is the expectation for Free Games. In fact, let's look at something really quick.

1.) We will assume that the machine has an overall return of 90%.

2.) We will assume that Free Games represents 20% of that return.

Okay, so for an $0.80 bet, your average return should be .8 * .9 = $0.72. If we want to say Free Games represents 20% of that return, then .72 * .2 = $0.144 of your Expected Return is wrapped up in Free Games.

If the Expected Return of the Free Games was 375 times the initial bet, or $300 on a bet of $0.80, but that was only supposed to make up $0.144 of your total return, then:

300/.144 = 2083.33 or 1:2083.33 or .000048000076 probability of hitting for Free Games.

PROOF:

.8 * 375 * .000048000076 = 0.0144000228

Conclusion

I obviously have no idea what the Expected Return of the Free Games on that game is, or the probability of Free Games, or how the Free Games ER relates to the overall ER, but I just wanted to give you a quick example of how that works and how unlikely it is that Free Games Expected Return is 375x the initial bet. The long and short of it is that a $300 hit on an $0.80 play was just a really, really good hit.

Comparing it to a machine such as QuickHits Platinum, there are only three results that pay more than 375x the total bet, which are 8 Quick Hits (1:87617), 9 Quick Hits (1:2073600) and Five Quick Hits Platinum symbols (Probability Unknown). Free Games can technically net you more than 375x your bet, in fact, my only hand pay on a QuickHits machine was hitting for 8 Quick Hits during Bonus Games which doubled for 2000x pays (On Quick Hits Flat Top machines, the base amount for 8QH symbols is generally 1000x bet instead of the 650 on the Progressives). The other thing with QH is that Free Games occurs, on average, 1 out of 96 plays, so you know that 375x bet is not the Expected Result of Free Games, or your return on the machine would be 375 * 1/96 = 3.90625 or 390.625% of all monies bet on Free Games alone.

So, you had a very unlikely result in winning $300 on an $0.80 bet and it has simply not yet been repeated on an $8.00 bet.

Quote:

My last time I played jackpot party--i played 2dollars PER SPIN MAX....i got the bonus, picked the bonus multiplyer which was next pick at 10x(which is very rare)...next pick was DANCE BONUS...... the dance bonuse easily goes up above 10 dollars on small bets, above 20 dollars on medium bets.....but on max bet it went up to 6 dollars...paxying 6x10...60 dollars.

Again, there are, "Good," sets of Free Games and there are, "Bad," ones. I whiffed on three consecutive sets of Bonus Games on Cleopatra Keno once, that's 36 CARDS without a single win. If wins start with four numbers on a Pick-10, then the probability of a single game losing is about .7881, thus the probability of 36 consecutive games (I know, technically not, because you have to win to get Bonus Games) losing is: (0.7881)^36 = 0.00018920290063519397 or 1/0.00018920290063519397 = 1:5285.33.

That's the nature of a slot machine, there are many different results of spins, and Free Games tends to multiply that because we look at Free Games as one result, but really, it's simply the culmination of the results of a bunch of individual games. If you're looking for something where the pays will always be steady for any specific result, then you should play Video Keno (without Bonus Games), Slots without Bonus Games, Video Poker, or pretty much any Table Game. If you want steadiness and predictability, slots with Bonus Games are not the way to go.

Thank you very much for the detailed reply. There reason I suspected there wasnt a normal rng response in bonus was machines like Shamans magic, 50 dragons, 100 lions...all aristocrat

For example SHAMANS MAGIC....there is a "moon" figure that is a wild symbol that appears individually here and there in regular spins. However in the bonus they appear in strips that take up an entire vertical column.
which makes me believe that i am watching a movie since the normal rng response is different when it comes to the moon figures during the regular game.

The same with diamods in 100 lions. or pearls in 50 dragons,.....there is a better chance of "strips of wilds" during the bonus

Again I appreciate your response and am not arguing with you.You have a great grasp of the math, and I am just talking about my gut feelig so I really have nothing
to show as proof in this matter.

I bought a book on cd a couple years ago by someonbe who claimed to be a slot technician at a casino who couldnt use his real ame and when I emailed him the question he answered by saying that the bonus free spins were like watching a movie. Of course he is not a programmer so I can question what he really knows as fact..

by the way,,,the 300 win on 80 cents is not usual. Sometimes I get zero. Sometimes 20 dollars, sometimes 100.00.....300 is by no means average or usual...you are right,

Quote: LarryS

Thank you very much for the detailed reply. There reason I suspected there wasnt a normal rng response in bonus was machines like Shamans magic, 50 dragons, 100 lions...all aristocrat

You're welcome!

Quote:

For example SHAMANS MAGIC....there is a "moon" figure that is a wild symbol that appears individually here and there in regular spins. However in the bonus they appear in strips that take up an entire vertical column.
which makes me believe that i am watching a movie since the normal rng response is different when it comes to the moon figures during the regular game.

The same with diamods in 100 lions. or pearls in 50 dragons,.....there is a better chance of "strips of wilds" during the bonus

Again I appreciate your response and am not arguing with you.You have a great grasp of the math, and I am just talking about my gut feelig so I really have nothing
to show as proof in this matter.

Those are all games in which the Bonus Games have what are termed, "Stacked Wilds," or, "Expanding Wilds," depending on the game, which are common on many types of $0.01/denom video slots.

The best way to view that is as Bonus Games being a different game entirely, because that is exactly what happens. It's the same way with Quick Hits Platinum, but just to a lesser extent. For one thing, on Quick Hits Platinum, there are no Quick Hits Platinum symbols during Free Games. Free Games often operate on a different premise than the Base Game, though, even for games such as Video Keno. Cleopatra Keno is a game in which all wins are doubled during Free Games, Fireball Keno draws five, "Fireballs," after the usual twenty balls have been drawn, for twenty-five total balls. There are any number of other examples.

When it comes to, "Watching a movie," it seems that what you are basically trying to assert is that when Free Games have been won, the RNG (or some other function of the machine) decides what you are to be paid and provides you with visual results in accordance to the pay. Applied to a game like Cleopatra Keno, for example, that would be like saying the RNG decides that you will win a total of 60 credits before the Free Games even start, and then shows you a, "Movie," of twelve Free Games in which the result is a win total of 60 credits.

In any event, the RNG actually functions the same way that it would any other time, based on individual games, it's just that it is playing a game different than the game that you are used to, one that involves Stacked/Expanding Wilds, or what have you.

Quote:

I bought a book on cd a couple years ago by someonbe who claimed to be a slot technician at a casino who couldnt use his real ame and when I emailed him the question he answered by saying that the bonus free spins were like watching a movie. Of course he is not a programmer so I can question what he really knows as fact..

by the way,,,the 300 win on 80 cents is not usual. Sometimes I get zero. Sometimes 20 dollars, sometimes 100.00.....300 is by no means average or usual...you are right,

I'm not sure what the author of that book is referring to.

I figured as much with the last part, and that's because Free Games almost has to come up much more frequently than the necessarily rare occurence that would come with an average result of $300 on an $0.80 bet. If Free Games doesn't appear at least somewhat frequently, then there is simply no point in a machine having Free Games because they are a huge part of the draw to the machine.

Quote: LarryS

Thank you very much for the detailed reply. There reason I suspected there wasnt a normal rng response in bonus was machines like Shamans magic, 50 dragons, 100 lions...all aristocrat

For example SHAMANS MAGIC....there is a "moon" figure that is a wild symbol that appears individually here and there in regular spins. However in the bonus they appear in strips that take up an entire vertical column.
which makes me believe that i am watching a movie since the normal rng response is different when it comes to the moon figures during the regular game.

The same with diamods in 100 lions. or pearls in 50 dragons,.....there is a better chance of "strips of wilds" during the bonus

Again I appreciate your response and am not arguing with you.You have a great grasp of the math, and I am just talking about my gut feelig so I really have nothing
to show as proof in this matter.

I bought a book on cd a couple years ago by someonbe who claimed to be a slot technician at a casino who couldnt use his real ame and when I emailed him the question he answered by saying that the bonus free spins were like watching a movie. Of course he is not a programmer so I can question what he really knows as fact..

by the way,,,the 300 win on 80 cents is not usual. Sometimes I get zero. Sometimes 20 dollars, sometimes 100.00.....300 is by no means average or usual...you are right,

Generally speaking, your "average" return in bonus rounds with "free spins" is significantly above 100% of a normal spin, 300% is very reasonable, but in the short-term near zero wins can happen...or 10000% (100X bet) wins can happen, and many other results inbetween, which average out to very roughly 300% a normal spin. But of course, these bonus spins are rare, and the rest of the normal spins pay very badly. So the base game pays ~60% of your overall money back, and the smaller amount of bonus spins pay ~30% of your overall money back, leading to a slot game that pays ~90% of your overall money back...lol

Quote: Mission146

When it comes to, "Watching a movie," it seems that what you are basically trying to assert is that when Free Games have been won, the RNG (or some other function of the machine) decides what you are to be paid and provides you with visual results in accordance to the pay. Applied to a game like Cleopatra Keno, for example, that would be like saying the RNG decides that you will win a total of 60 credits before the Free Games even start, and then shows you a, "Movie," of twelve Free Games in which the result is a win total of 60 credits.

In any event, the RNG actually functions the same way that it would any other time, based on individual games, it's just that it is playing a game different than the game that you are used to, one that involves Stacked/Expanding Wilds, or what have you.

And unfortunately, this leads to the crux of the matter. In Class III jurisdictions, I believe that machines can handle "free spin" bonus games in either of these manners: Either pre-determining your bonus win amount randomly upfront and showing a set of "free spins" to display the randomly pre-determined bonus win. OR Use a set of "bonus reels" with a higher than average payout (i.e. 300% average return per bonus spin) to randomly determine each of your bonus spins determine your bonus result. I think most games do the latter, considering bonus game variance sizes, because a pre-determined bonus win would likely have a lower variance, imo. From what I have read overall though, I believe both methods are legal in most (all?) Class III juristdictions.

what makes those BUFFALO games so appealing? i remember station casinos advertising them heavily several months back but never actually stopped to give them a try.

Quote: rudeboyoi

what makes those BUFFALO games so appealing? i remember station casinos advertising them heavily several months back but never actually stopped to give them a try.

The game is a 4x5 game that offers symbols anywhere in the column to count (1024 paylines total), and has tiled symbols which can lead to gigantic wins, I think. I have never played them though, so these reasons are just my educated guess.

There is a description below about them being online with a 94.85% return, which the article claims "is better than any land casino"...probably true, imo...lol So anyone who cares about the long-term result should stay far, far away.

http://www.sbwire.com/press-releases/aristocrats-buffalo-slot-finally-released-online-164100.htm

Quote: tringlomane

The game is a 4x5 game that offers symbols anywhere in the column to count (1024 paylines total), and has tiled symbols which can lead to gigantic wins, I think. I have never played them though, so these reasons are just my educated guess.

There is a description below about them being online with a 94.85% return, which the article claims "is better than any land casino"...probably true, imo...lol So anyone who cares about the long-term result should stay far, far away.

http://www.sbwire.com/press-releases/aristocrats-buffalo-slot-finally-released-online-164100.htm

Maryland Live has all the games set to 94.85%, but it is a giant lie because the unlimited bet size double up feature contributes most of the theoretical payback. I think without the double up, the games are about 88%.

All these other questions the OP stated, I just recommend for him to not be bothered with them. Slots are not made for any knowledge or interpretation to be important with the exception of progressive values. Play higher denoms and less flashy or gimmicky machines if you care about value.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

. Play higher denoms and less flashy or gimmicky machines if you care about value.

...and often maximum bet. Of course that turns all the "penny" machines into multi-dollar machines, but that's where some of the return value lies.

what makes those BUFFALO games so appealing? >>>


My games are sports betting and table poker with about 10 percent of my 2k bankroll each weekend going to slots.Usually the old aristocrat.
Buffalo is popular because you can get substantial wins even without a bonus.

There are alot of machines that are "fun to play" . They have bells and whistles, video, interactive bonuses,,but they eat your money. They are like video games.
Afew that comes to mind are Ghost Busters, Batman, JudgeJudy, sex in the city. These games have video clips interspersed with bonuses making them fun for the novice but you pay for that "fun value". The bonuses are more plentiful but pay very little.

WITH BUFFALO....and similar aristocrat machines. The bonuses are less frequent but have the potential to be anywhere from zero to 2k ( i have personally observed zero for myself and 1800 for myself). Buffalo and some other aristocrats like 100 lions....have the potential of large regular payouts. Playing 4 dollars once I recieved 800 on a regular spin.

I know I have a better win chance if I took that weekly 200 and placed it on black or red on roulette...you dont have to convince me that the value isnt there but it is a guilty pleasure. I appreciate all the answers.

by the way I researched the person who told me that the bonus free spins are not associated with rng.

Mark Vincent

Slot Technician

Learn the facts at EGDSecrets.com

Quote: LarryS

by the way I researched the person who told me that the bonus free spins are not associated with rng.

Mark Vincent

Slot Technician

Learn the facts at EGDSecrets.com

I would rather buy Miracle Water from the fraud on TV.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Maryland Live has all the games set to 94.85%, but it is a giant lie because the unlimited bet size double up feature contributes most of the theoretical payback. I think without the double up, the games are about 88%.

Um, "double up" doesn't change the return at all, it just increases variance. RTP x an 100% double-up feature = RTP. So if the Buffalo machines at Maryland Live are set 94.85%, then they will pay 94.85% long-term if you play double-up or not.

What's sick about MD law is that if a machine is set looser than 95%, they have to get permission of the Gaming Commission to do so. So I am guessing MD has some really, really, really bad video poker then.

Page 23: http://cdn.mdlottery.com.s3.amazonaws.com/Rules%20and%20Regulations/COMAR%2014.01.15%20-%20Video%20Lottery%20Technical%20Standards.pdf

Quote: tringlomane

Um, "double up" doesn't change the return at all, it just increases variance. RTP x an 100% double-up feature = RTP. So if the Buffalo machines at Maryland Live are set 94.85%, then they will pay 94.85% long-term if you play double-up or not.

What's sick about MD law is that if a machine is set looser than 95%, they have to get permission of the Gaming Commission to do so. So I am guessing MD has some really, really, really bad video poker then.

Page 23: http://cdn.mdlottery.com.s3.amazonaws.com/Rules%20and%20Regulations/COMAR%2014.01.15%20-%20Video%20Lottery%20Technical%20Standards.pdf

If everything won is allowed to be bet at 100% payback, 0% house edge, it has to. Isn't this the same thing as the free odds bet reducing the pass line bet edge?
Simply put. Bet $100, win 88% for $88. Bet $88 at 100% payback. Does the overall payback not exceed 88%?
The way I'm thinking I first bet $100 and win $88. I then bet the 88 and win 88. I have won $176 and gambled $188 using theoretical payback for actual paybacks for simplification purposes, getting 93.6%

Quote: onenickelmiracle

The way I'm thinking I first bet $100 and win $88. I then bet the 88 and win 88. I have won $176 and gambled $188 using theoretical payback for actual paybacks for simplification purposes, getting 93.6%

Ok, I see your point, but typically speaking, double up features are NOT factored into RTP in the video poker world at least, but then again, this slot is the only slot I have seen to have this "double up" feature, so I guess it could be either way. But considering online articles say the RTP of 94.85% is the HIGHEST available, I'd assume that doesn't consider the "double up" feature; otherwise this is a really, really bad paying slot, unlike most Aristocrat brand games, ime.

Quote: tringlomane

Ok, I see your point, but typically speaking, double up features are NOT factored into RTP in the video poker world at least, but then again, this slot is the only slot I have seen to have this "double up" feature, so I guess it could be either way. But considering online articles say the RTP of 94.85% is the HIGHEST available, I'd assume that doesn't consider the "double up" feature; otherwise this is a really, really bad paying slot, unlike most Aristocrat brand games, ime.

From what I can gather the free slots at Maryland live are not that hot to make me think they are near 95% without it or else I wouldn't have ever thought this is what they meant. Probably the wrong help file like the other place. Keep in mind these slots are only free and there is no gambling on the site.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

From what I can gather the free slots at Maryland live are not that hot to make me think they are near 95% without it or else I wouldn't have ever thought this is what they meant. Probably the wrong help file like the other place. Keep in mind these slots are only free and there is no gambling on the site.

Oh this is the play money slot available there? I would bet those are 94.85%; you're probably just running bad on the base game, and better on the double-up feature, if you are using it. On this variance cluster**** of a game, you'll need thousands upon thousands of spins to get a good realization of RTP.