AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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March 28th, 2012 at 2:32:01 PM permalink
I would have pushed all in when you hit trips on the flop. You saw the potential for a flush and for a straight, so you have to make the player who is drawing think twice about calling an all in.

I usually go all in pre flop with KK to keep Ace-rags from playing, because whenever I get KK an ace always flops. LOL
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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March 28th, 2012 at 7:02:33 PM permalink
So the player with AJ in early bets 1200 ( 3X BB ). There is 600 blinds and $500 ante's so he bets 1200 at a chance to win 1100 in
fold equity. If called he is getting almost 2 to 1 with his AJ and can see the flop, most like heads up.

He gets called and you raise it to $3500. 1200 + 1100 + 1200 =3100 =6600. Cost him 2300 to call, getting almost 3 to 1 and he has an Ace. If you raised all in preflop, I believed he would have folded. You had a chance to pick up 3500 in fold equity and if called all in you got KK. Slow playing not the smartest move at that time, but lets overlook that for the moment.

You flop a set and there are straight and flush possibilities on the flop. You CHECK ???? If he has a straight or flush possibility, you are giving him a free card ! Instead he has both, about the only real way he figures to bet or move in. I mean after all you did raise from bb, knowing you must lead into him the next 3 betting rounds. He has 9 spades plus 2 other queens top make a big hand. And there is 8900 in pot. He will improve about 40% of the time. In other words he is 3/2 underdog.

Assuming you had between 14-15 K you have about 10K left. He goes all in. If you have jj or qq you will likely fold. Forget AA.
10K + 10K + 8.9K he is getting almost 2 to 1 plus fold equity if you fold.

When you check in that position your opponent will usually only make a bet if he has favorable odds. To say nothing of it's too early in tournament to push all your chips in on a slow play. If you must, why not preflop, when it is harder for anyone to call you??
Switch
Switch
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March 28th, 2012 at 7:25:56 PM permalink
The texture of the flop can give you some guidance as to whether trap-check or bet. On a flop of K, 10, 9 then there are a lot of scare cards as well as cards to allow the opponent to catch up too easily. If the 4th card was a 3 say then you will unlikely get any further value from the player except you have given a free card.

If the flop was K,8,4 unsuited then you could consider a check in order to try and get the player to catch up or to show weakness and encourage the player to bluff.

With K,K verses A,J suited, you are a 67% favorite pre-flop. Even on that flop you are still a 66% favorite so your odds didn't change much, you were just unfortunate to lose the 2/1 shot.
Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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March 28th, 2012 at 7:49:27 PM permalink
Quote: Switch

With K,K verses A,J suited, you are a 67% favorite pre-flop. Even on that flop you are still a 66% favorite so your odds didn't change much, you were just unfortunate to lose the 2/1 shot.



Actually, as it's been pointed out, the guy was correct to push all-in, hoping the King would scare you on the flop. Had you led out and bet, you still may have gotten a call. While the actual odds show you were a 2:1 favorite, if he thinks that an Ace gets it for him, he just added three more outs. That would make it a near 50/50 scenario.

Given what you have shared, I think it would have been foolish to push all-in preflop, but checking that flop was the biggest mistake. If he makes a bad call (in the long run), that's HIS bad. But anybody who pushes chips in is trying to buy the pot, and your misstep allowed him to make the play.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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March 28th, 2012 at 8:41:08 PM permalink
The check also gives him a chance to get a free card. Plus I am not math proficient. But using rule of 2 and 4, he has 10 outs
and 4 X10 = 40% which is 3 to 2 and not 2 to 1 ?? Pot is laying him almost 2 to 1 plus you may well fold. I can see slow playing possibly preflop, but to check and give a free flush or straight card with that flop texture. NO WAY !! You said you had just sat at the table and had no read on the player. In that position I always give the player the benefit of the doubt until he proves otherwise.

and as Tiltpoul has stated if he thinks an A might win it for him, then he has 13 outs, making him the favorite in his mind.. Plus you checked and he has to figure in some fold equity.
If he had checked also , what were you gonna do when that q fell ? Pot was too big to let him draw out for free, versus small chance he would put you all in, I should think. And if a blank hits you can check again and he will also. Or you can bet and he is gone.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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March 28th, 2012 at 9:32:03 PM permalink
my biggest worry is that a player is holding JQ which is a popular hand to play, especially when suited.

Given KK my course of action would have been.

1. push all in pre flop and take whatever there is on the table
2. push after the flop with your set and hope it deters those with a flush or straight draw and hope no one was playing JQ

To be very cautious, call pre flop, see the flop, and fold if anyone bets given the flush and straight possibilities.

It was a bad flop for a good hand.
P90
P90
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March 29th, 2012 at 12:37:24 AM permalink
Quote: FourFiveFace

Here's the situation. I was in a casino tournament, blinds are 200-400 (50 ante). Guy in early position raises to 1,200 and another in late position calls. I'm in the big blind with pocket kings and I re-raise to 3,500.


That's not quite the right info. Blinds and antes are not as important as your stack and other stacks. In other words, what's your M and Q, are you the big stack or a short stack at your table. Is it early, middle or late in the tourney, how large is the tourney.
Anyway, you did provide some of it later.

Generally KK is an all-in hand in tournament situations. It's still good, but not great post-flop: it dominates Q/J flops, but any flop with an ace destroys it. With any dry flop, you don't know where you stand, and in a tourney you rarely have the chips to spare to find out.

KT9 was a strong but draw-rich flop. Depending on your position in the tournament and your relative stacks, you should have either kept trapping or shoved right there. With Q~=1, M~=15 (down to 10 now), early position, and a pot of about your stack now... well, neither can be dismissed instantly. Pot size, straight and flush draws, pre-flop action all call for shoving, but early position doesn't. If I was in a late position there, regardless of the action before me, I'd go all-in without a second thought.

In any case, since your stack was now about 9,000, and there was 9,000 in the pot as well, taking down the pot would have been a great outcome already. Adding another 9,000 from his stack, a better outcome, but not much better. And you definitely still had the fold equity. When you are an average stack, going even a little up is enormously useful.

That said, checking was not a good trapping move, as you had shown strength pre-flop. Your actions were very consistent with a flopped set. Making a small probe-bet would have been more consistent with a strong hand (QQ etc) worried after the flop, but it would have pot-committed you. At that, making a shove would also have been consistent with queens trying to represent AK, less so with a set. So you had very good chances of being called anyway after an all-in - and that's what you were looking for.

This means that the value of trapping was very small. It gave you only a modest possible increase in the resulting stack, only a small improvement in the odds of getting it over a shove, and had to be weighted against two possible nut draws.
So it all comes down to how badly did you need that last 9,000.

Would you have become the big stack of your table with 18,000? Would you with 27,000?
If the answers to these two questions are the same - either both yes or both no - the correct decision was to shove immediately.
If the answers are different, then I think both plays were acceptable - tourneys are loose, and becoming the big stack is valuable enough to contemplate big risks.
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Triplell
Triplell
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March 29th, 2012 at 3:25:06 AM permalink
I pretty much agree with the poster above. Although getting value is important, it is also important in tournaments to take down pots when you can. Also, the time at which this event happened in the tournament is extremely important.

If you had around 13k in chips, adding another 3-4k chips to your stack would have been sufficient.

I wouldn't say you made "all the wrong moves"...You got exactly what you wanted, minus two draws out there. I'm not sure why you would ever check top set versus a straight and flush draw with a pot equivalent to your entire stack. Any guy with those draws is going to call you, as he would be getting 2 to 1 on his money.

The man said "Hey, I would have likely folded"...but I would think he was just as likely to call.

Either way, don't beat yourself up over it. You can woulda-shoulda-coulda for the rest of your life, but it won't change the outcome. Might as well as just use that experience in the future.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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March 29th, 2012 at 8:23:47 AM permalink
I beg to differ. No indication he will take a chance at pissing all his chips away with AJ suited to an all-in bet . Especially with a player who just came to the table and has shown no sign of being a maniac.
slyther
slyther
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March 29th, 2012 at 9:52:25 AM permalink
P90 beat me to it. Shove that flop. Maybe you don't maximize, but that flop is draw-heavy for the villian's probable range of hands given that he opened then called a 3-bet preflop.

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