Do casinos make any money on poker rooms?
Quote: desertairI've never played in one so I may be missing an obvious facet of playing Texas Hold'em, but where does the casino make money for hosting players for hours on end? Drink service? Entry fee? House commission?
They take a rate(a portion of each pot).....Like at a 3/6 table they will rate $3 from every pot.....progressively as the pot grows....for a max of $3 once the pot gets over $20...but different poker rooms have different rules as to how much the rack is and how it is progressively pulled out as the pot grows...
If you figure a poker room with 10 tables always running dealing 25 hands per hour....taking an average rake of $2.50 per hand.....that's about $63 an hour....times 10 tables 630 per hour times 24 hours a day.....$15,120 per day...NO RISK...they now doesn't have to worry about some high rolling getting hot and sticking it to them.....
On the flip side you need to keep those tables full.....and you need 15 or so dealers to service 10 tables....that's why a lot of casinos pay prop players to play so games doesn't break down...
We know that Bingo Rooms have games on the odd hours but that players tend to hit the slot machines on the even hours.
In Poker Rooms, the rake brings in some money but when you add up comps, tournaments, bad beat prizes, is it a break even situation? Poker players bring spouses who may play the slots or something.
Bingo rooms vary from plus 1.0 percent to minus 1.0 percent.
Poker rooms are ?? percent.
Quote: FleaStiffWhat I would wonder is how much poker players actually bring to the casino's other profit centers.
We know that Bingo Rooms have games on the odd hours but that players tend to hit the slot machines on the even hours.
In Poker Rooms, the rake brings in some money but when you add up comps, tournaments, bad beat prizes, is it a break even situation? Poker players bring spouses who may play the slots or something.
Bingo rooms vary from plus 1.0 percent to minus 1.0 percent.
Poker rooms are ?? percent.
the bad beat and or a monte carlo board do not come out of the casinos profits......If a casino is running any "bonuses" in there poker room they pull an additional rake every hand for this as well.....for example...the casino I play at is a 3/5 NL game max buy in $500 they progressively pull a $3 rake for the house and a $2 jackpot rake(which is high most place pull $1)...but by law whatever they pull they have to pay back out in bonuses....which just means that place has higher bad beats and monte carlo board payouts
Most poker rooms lose money off poker tournaments that's why they are so fast...like $25 buy in $3 entry fee with 20 min rounds.. and are over in about 2 hours or less...becasue the blinds get so high so fast.....they are just there to draw players in...in hopes they stick around for the "live" game after they get busted out OR take their winnings to the "live" game...or to another table game or slots.....
that's why they are normally in the morning......If you just opened up your poker tables in the morning at lets say 11am......you would probably only have 1 or 2 players and they would have to wait to they got at least 4 to start a game...and that's with a dealer sitting in....BUT if you run a tourny every morning at 11am that draws 20=30 players.....they will always get a live game going
Tournaments or any freebie are usually designed to get them in early.
I guess in a poker room its always a mixture of cutthroats and vacationers anxious to give money away.
Quote: FleaStiffI'm not at all familiar with poker rooms or poker room operations but I have seen some ads for poker room prizes that start at a certain amount and climb. I assumed that starting amount was casino seed money and that the escalation was from a rake. As I understand it some of those bad beat jackpots grow to such figures that alot of players keep playing in the hopes that they will be there to qualify for a share of some jackpot distribution.
Tournaments or any freebie are usually designed to get them in early.
I guess in a poker room its always a mixture of cutthroats and vacationers anxious to give money away.
Ya I was a prop player for years after getting out of college when I was still a broke kid LOL......And I still have good friends that are poker room managers....so I know the ins and outs of a poker room....Plus if you are gonna prop and have the casino pay you to play poker for them....its a good idea to be BEST friends with the poker room managers LOL
Quote: NicksGamingStuffThe thing about being a prop player is that you have to finance your own gaming. You get an hourly wage but you have to use your own money to gamble with.
well of course....but its good money...and it the best "job" I ever had in terms of how fun it was.....
Quote: vert1276They take a rate(a portion of each pot).....Like at a 3/6 table they will rate $3 from every pot.....progressively as the pot grows....for a max of $3 once the pot gets over $20...but different poker rooms have different rules as to how much the rack is and how it is progressively pulled out as the pot grows...
A $3 rake will be more common in Las Vegas; outside of competitive markets for poker (i.e. Vegas, California), the rake is usually at LEAST $4 (i.e. Missouri), but most places now in the Midwest are up to $5, with the highest being $6 in Detroit. That's the max rake, with 10% taken out if the pot is less than 40, 50 or 60 dollars respectively.
The other practice that gets me at some casinos is the rake before a flop. This is by law in West Virginia... what I mean is, say a player raises to $10, and another player raises to $40, the initial raiser goes all in to $200, causing the other to fold. The pot has 3+1+10+40=$54 before seeing a flop... in WV and Hollywood Casino in IN they rake $5 + $1 for the bad beat on that!!! And you didn't even see a flop.
Quote: vert1276
On the flip side you need to keep those tables full.....and you need 15 or so dealers to service 10 tables....that's why a lot of casinos pay prop players to play so games doesn't break down...
I have never heard of prop players in use in any Midwest casinos. I know the casinos in Tunica used to do that, but I think even that's been limited.
Quote: vert1276
Most poker rooms lose money off poker tournaments that's why they are so fast...like $25 buy in $3 entry fee with 20 min rounds.. and are over in about 2 hours or less...becasue the blinds get so high so fast.....they are just there to draw players in...in hopes they stick around for the "live" game after they get busted out OR take their winnings to the "live" game...or to another table game or slots.....
This is also no longer true in the Midwest. Casinos actually make a TON of money on tournaments now. Reason being, they bump the fees up to a ridiculous amount. Most tournaments here have a $10 fee for anything less than $100 buy-in, and up to $25 for more than that. Caesars properties has made an art of bilking the player for money in tournament fees. They have tournaments where players get paid less than 60% of what the true buy-in (fees + buy-ins) are.
Part of it is a public relations thing, but casinos around here can't open a poker room fast enough if they don't have one. Unfortunately, some "markets" have one or two big dogs, and the smaller ones can't be profitable. The competition goes away for a while, then the big dogs get greedy. Players demand that the smaller casinos reopen their rooms, and the competition comes back, albeit not as good as before they left.
You're probably talking about Bad Beat jackpots. Because BOTH hands must have pocket pairs for quads, or use both cards for a SF, and the minimum hand is typically quads, the jackpot sometimes doesn't hit for months and can grow quite large.Quote: FleaStiffI'm not at all familiar with poker rooms or poker room operations but I have seen some ads for poker room prizes that start at a certain amount and climb. I assumed that starting amount was casino seed money and that the escalation was from a rake. As I understand it some of those bad beat jackpots grow to such figures that alot of players keep playing in the hopes that they will be there to qualify for a share of some jackpot distribution.
Typically, the casino takes an extra $1 out of any pot over $20. Only hands where the pot is at least $20 qualify. At the end of the day, those dollars are added to the current jackpot prize.
That prize is typically divided as: Of the total prize posted, 50% goes to the "loser" of the bad beat. 25% to the winner. 25% divided amongst the other players at the table. Some casinos divide the remainder amoung all players in the room. The four Caesars properties in AC are linked so that the remainder is divided amoung all players in all 4 rooms.
Note that the prize posted is only 80% of the total collected. 20% held in reserve to reseed the Bad Beat.
When a casino initially introduces the bad beat jackpot, they will fund it with about $20,000. While that's their own money, they are not really being generous. A small portion of the daily contribution is taken to repay the casino for the initial seed, until repaid. If the 20% in reserve be below that threshold, the casino will top it off, and again take a small portion.
Some casinos have a different type of jackpot. Mohegan Sun in CT does a High Hand every 4 hours. For 3 hours, they take $1 out of pots of over $20, and record and announce the highest qualifying hand. During the 4th hour, they empty the buckets, count the chips and award the prize. The qualifier announcements generally starts as "quad __ with __ kicker." Before it's done, the qualifier is usual "SF __ high", and is often escalates to a Royal. Ties split the pot.
Last Christmas morning, with very few players in the room, and about 45 minutes to go, I qualified with quad sixes. Because there were so few players, I had high hopes. But with about 5 minutes remaining, I got beat. Sigh.
On the original subject, the casino takes, usually, 10% of the pot, for a maximum of, typically, $4. Some take $5. Some take as little as $3. If you read my review of Royal Caribbean Cruise, they take a maximum of $15. On the cruise, more than once we heard the phrase, "Don't like it? Go to the casino next door."
Quote: desertairI've never played in one so I may be missing an obvious facet of playing Texas Hold'em, but where does the casino make money for hosting players for hours on end? Drink service? Entry fee? House commission?
In Ohio, we don't have casinos (yet, they are on the horizon). However, there is a law that allows card rooms to exist as clubs. In these cases, the "house" charges a membership fee and then a "daily use fee." These are a bit higher on the front end, but then they don't rake the pot. (Most clubs are now taking a $1 or $2 out for a bad beat jackpot/jackpot hand scenario.) There were a couple clubs that did actually rake, instead of charging a fee, but that's illegal, and I think those operations get shut down by other card room owners trying to skim the competition.
It's a lot less seedy than it sounds. They are usually in strip malls near "games of skill" slot parlors or internet cafes, although a few exist in nicer venues. These are legit games, and if you play a lot, it's much cheaper in the long run than having a rake taken out. There are three or four "big" clubs that usually have at least 3 games going, then a bunch of medium sized clubs that have one or two sometimes going on. The places pop up for a while then disappear without any warning (except for the big ones; they have loyal followings and are usually the best run anyways).
The other caveat is that dealers are not considered employees, but rather volunteers. The players cannot pay them in actual money, so you buy "chocolate chips" which are brown $1 chips to be cashed by employees only. Some clubs have put those on the table for the dealer to convert, while others require you buy them at the cage. The only club employees then are security and managers, limiting overhead.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
On the original subject, the casino takes, usually, 10% of the pot, for a maximum of, typically, $4. Some take $5. Some take as little as $3. If you read my review of Royal Caribbean Cruise, they take a maximum of $15. On the cruise, more than once we heard the phrase, "Don't like it? Go to the casino next door."
I'm not a cruise person so I didn't read that particular article, sorry...
I'm guessing you had to file a police report after getting off the cruise if you were playing poker... that's an open and shut case of RAPE!!
I should point out that the phrase was jokingly said by a player, not the staff.Quote: DJTeddyBearOn the cruise, more than once we heard the phrase, "Don't like it? Go to the casino next door."
I understand completely. For what it's worth, I'm 52, and this was my first cruise. Before I sailed, I didn't think I was a cruise person either. Now I'm anxious to go again.Quote: TiltpoulI'm not a cruise person so I didn't read that particular article, sorry...
For what it's worth, I went into detail about the ship's casino in this post.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
For what it's worth, I went into detail about the ship's casino in this post.
Actually in the meantime, I did find your review of the poker room on the cruise thread. I find it hysterical that they used an empty BJ table for poker. I'm guessing the rakes REALLY got screwed up on that table, as the dealer probably wasn't thinking that far ahead.
Depending on how it was dealt, I probably would have turned over an A-Face immediately, expecting to get paid 3:2.
Example: $125 buy in + $25 fee = $150 total cost.
Of this money $125 goes to the players, the house gets zip. The house gets the entire $25 "fee" to pay for the costs of running the tourney -- bricks and mortar, dealers, refreshments (if offered), etc.
With the ring or cash games, part of the drop or rake might actually go towards a jackpot pool. But you have to check about the percentage of the "jackpot contribution" that is returned to the players when the jackpot is hit. At a few of the casinos where I play, they take HALF of the jackpot pool as an administration fee. You'd never know that if you didnt ask for the rules at the cage.
The rake or drop can vary based on the denomination of the game, and the number of players, and if the casino runs some special "low rake" promotion.
Quote: desertairI've never played in one so I may be missing an obvious facet of playing Texas Hold'em, but where does the casino make money for hosting players for hours on end? Drink service? Entry fee? House commission?
Out of 251 casinos in Nevada last year that made a minimum of $1 million in gaming revenue for the year all of them had slots, 155 had pit games, 99 had race and/or sports betting, and 94 had poker.
For smaller casinos poker only collects enough money from the rake to pay for the cost of the poker room and the dealers. The casino is hoping that these players will stick around and play more profitable games. Sometimes friends accompany the poker player and play slots or pit games. So it is basically a loss leader.
Poker brings in 1.6% of the total gaming revenue for NV, sports brings in 1.4%, and race book brings in 0.7%. So in general you can probably refer to them collectively as means to attract people into the casinos. There are some exceptions, casinos that do make a bigger profit on poker.
Ken
Quote: AlanMendelsonWith the ring or cash games, part of the drop or rake might actually go towards a jackpot pool. But you have to check about the percentage of the "jackpot contribution" that is returned to the players when the jackpot is hit. At a few of the casinos where I play, they take HALF of the jackpot pool as an administration fee. You'd never know that if you didnt ask for the rules at the cage.
50 % of the jackpot fund is highway robbery. I think most Midwest casinos take out about 10% as an Admin. fee, but some states require that any funds collected in such a manner must be paid out to players regardless. The same idea applies to Caribbean Stud... the jackpot gets funneled into some promotion or game that must be paid to the player. The jackpot still can charge and Admin fee, but it's much higher on table games than it is in a poker room.
Actually, I think ANY Admin Fee on a player-funded jackpot pool is ridiculous... in most cases, that money sits there, untouched for a long period of time. The casino is collecting interest on that money, and in many cases, it's not paid to the pool (I think there are states where even interest must be applied to the pool). The purpose of a rake the casino's portion for running the game; any promotions they choose to run shouldn't come at the cost of the player.
Quote: pacomartin
For smaller casinos poker only collects enough money from the rake to pay for the cost of the poker room and the dealers. The casino is hoping that these players will stick around and play more profitable games. Sometimes friends accompany the poker player and play slots or pit games. So it is basically a loss leader.
Poker brings in 1.6% of the total gaming revenue for NV, sports brings in 1.4%, and race book brings in 0.7%. So in general you can probably refer to them collectively as means to attract people into the casinos. There are some exceptions, casinos that do make a bigger profit on poker.
I agree that a poker room "legitimizes" a casino nowadays. It used to be a burden, now it's an asset. Smaller rooms barely make their money back, but the bigger rooms (typically run by MGM, Caesars or Hollywood) are going to be profitable. Poker is too big right now, and casinos can charge higher rakes without much backlash. The circuit tournaments, with a good turnout, are cash cows. This is why the bigger casinos run 4 of them year...
Quote: zippyboyWell, not ALL poker rooms are profitable. Tuscany, Fitzgeralds and Silverton all closed their poker rooms in the last couple weeks.
The larger casinos run poker rooms with some exceptions. Gold Coast has Bingo instead, Paris, Cosmopolitan, and NY-NY do not have poker because it doesn't seem to fit in with the theme. The 19 poker rooms in the larger Strip hotels made $100 million last fiscal year (2.06% of revenue). The 10 poker rooms in the smaller strip resorts made $5.7 million (0.97% of revenue).
I have seen managers write about poker in their quarterly and year end financial reports about smaller casinos. They flat out tell the shareholders that poker revenue just barely covers costs, but they believe it attracts other business into the resort. It may be as simple as a wife or girlfriend (or boyfriend so as not to be sexist) who plays slots while their partner plays poker.
Clearly tournaments have to be more profitable for the casino than grabbing a percentage of the pot as a rake. People are relatively immune to lotteries taking up to half the money. But they are very sensitive to sticking your fingers in the bowl.
One floor manager told me that in decades of running the floor, the first thing any green manager will tell him is that slots make the most profit per square foot. His answer is always, of course!, any idiot knows that. But slots alone don't bring people in the door.
It doesn't necessarily need to be a second person.Quote: pacomartinIt may be as simple as a wife or girlfriend (or boyfriend so as not to be sexist) who plays slots while their partner plays poker.
There is hardly any casino trip that I devote exclusively to poker. You'll ALWAYS find me at a craps table for at least one short session. Maybe longer or more than one...
And if I did particularly well at poker, I might be inclined to play a little looser at craps.
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Bet365 Poker
Quote: pacomartinThe larger casinos run poker rooms with some exceptions. Gold Coast has Bingo instead, Paris, Cosmopolitan, and NY-NY do not have poker because it doesn't seem to fit in with the theme.
Paris and NY-NY do not offer poker largely because of space restrictions and the fact that neighboring properties DO offer poker. My understanding was Paris closed theirs to funnel all the action over to Bally's and now Planet Hollywood. It's cheaper to run one larger poker room, than two separate rooms. NY-NY doesn't have a great space for poker, given it's open air layout and awkward paths. My guess is they, too, wanted to funnel action to other rooms, though MGM properties tend to all have poker rooms, so I'm not sure that's as valid of an argument.
Why Cosmopolitan doesn't offer one is a huge question to me. I disagree that it doesn't fit in the theme. Poker is a chic game, and of all the places on the strip, I would think they could have the coolest one around. There's a lot of great places they could put it too, and possibly even offer some sort of higher level so you get a nice view of the strip.
Quote: pacomartinslots make the most profit per square foot. His answer is always, of course!, any idiot knows that. But slots alone don't bring people in the door.
Precisely. Its a casino and many customers define the look and feel differently. Some slot players don't go near table games but they still consider them to be part of the ambiance. Even Table Game players tend to enjoy the sights and sounds of slot machines paying off. Consider the interests of spouses, rail birds, etc. and it can be that a poker room makes its money by attracting customers. Just as a Casino's Bingo Room makes money on the even hours wherein Bingo players utilize the slot machines, so too some casinos may make money on their poker rooms under times and circumstances not discernible to bean counters.
Poker rooms have reputations for tight-fisted locals, Tourists, ... whatever. I don't think its the question of how much a poker room actually brings in, but how much a casino loses if they close the poker room. Think of those famous shrimp cocktails. Its not cost of all that shrimp, its the cost of ending the special promotion.
If it reseeds to a large, uneven amount, say $23,498, then they're using a reseed pool. In that case a portion of every jackpot drop goes to the jackpot, say 70%, while the remainder goes towards the future reseed. This is because of the diminishing returns on a climbing jackpot. A jackpot at $20,000 attracts more players than a $10,000 jackpot but a $110,000 jackpot isn't much more enticing than a $100,000 jackpot. Having a reseed pool allows the jackpot to immediately return to a high amount after being hit, keeping the players interested.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIt doesn't necessarily need to be a second person.
There is hardly any casino trip that I devote exclusively to poker. You'll ALWAYS find me at a craps table for at least one short session. Maybe longer or more than one...
And if I did particularly well at poker, I might be inclined to play a little looser at craps.
I definitely second this opinion. I often see guys I know only from the poker room playing high limit blackjack or slots. I usually try to hit the poker rooms when a tournament is ending. Just love all those moves and bluffing the tournament players try at low limit hold'em. LOL
Quote: DJTeddyBearI understand completely. For what it's worth, I'm 52, and this was my first cruise. Before I sailed, I didn't think I was a cruise person either. Now I'm anxious to go again.
You are "eager" to go again. "Anxious" means you are anticipating something negative, "Eager" means you are looking forward to something positive ;)
Quote: bigfoot66You are "eager" to go again. "Anxious" means you are anticipating something negative, "Eager" means you are looking forward to something positive ;)
In all fairness, given the boat that sank recently, I wouldn't be surprised if he were more anxious than eager.
