DEAL OR NO DEAL
Poll
 | 1 vote (4.54%) | ||
| | 9 votes (40.9%) | ||
| | 11 votes (50%) | ||
| | 1 vote (4.54%) |
22 members have voted
Just wonder how other here feel about my distaste for deals ?
Part of winning these tournaments is patience and staying power. Often whoever asks for a chop first appears scared to continue and is at a disadvantage, like he only has a few BBs left, so unspoken collusion between bigger stacks target him, then those who remain can chop. That same collusion can also be used to target the one holdout (often the chip leader) who refuses. My advice is do whatever you want and don't feel pressured.
That said, I played a tourney a O'Shea's around 2006. It pays 1 in 10 people. However, only 10 people were in it, so it was winner take all: $300.
When it got down to heads up, I had about 80% of the chips. Maybe more. The other guy says, "Chop?" I actually didn't know what he meant, since it was my first time getting to that point. But I had an idea what it meant. But while thinking about it, he followed up with, "$160 / $140 ?" If he had said something reasonable like 200/100, I probably would have agreed. Instead, I said, "I may hate myself later, but I gotta play it out." Three or four hands later, I was collecting the full $300.
---
I don't think casinos will ever not allow them since it encourages ending sooner, freeing up the dealer/table for other duties.
---
I was in a tourney at ShowBoat AC where it was paying 7 and we were down to 6. I was the 2nd chip leader so I really didn't want to chop, but it was getting late, I was tired, and I sensed I was starting to play stupid. So I didn't object when the table started talking about it.
But the floor person said the Casino Control Commission rules forbid chop discussions at the table. However, we could agree to a break, where they would stop the clock. We had to go out to the hall to discuss it. When we came back, they told us of we decided to end it, we had to play one more hand, were everyone goes all in and folds to the leader. I.E. They had to correctly pay out the posted amounts to the correct finishers.
If everyone at the table wants to chop, I'm fine with it. If somebody objects and wants to play it out, I'm ok with that too.
Quote: PapaChubbyBased on my very limited experience, it seems like fairly standard practice to chop the prize pool based on chip counts once the tournament is down to the last few players. I think the reasoning is that, with large blinds and few players, luck will play a significant role in how the tournament finishes. Whereas your chip count to arrive at that condition is a better indication of your skill as a player.
If everyone at the table wants to chop, I'm fine with it. If somebody objects and wants to play it out, I'm ok with that too.
Chip count might be the most democratic way of doing but shows nothing at all of your skill as a player. It's merely a snapshot of how many chips you have at that precise moment of the tournament. There aren't many instances I'd take a chip count chop since I feel normally I am one of the better players at the table and would need to be rewarded for that in the deal. If not then play it out, I'm cool with that.
Quote: JimMorrison....since I feel normally I am one of the better players at the table and would need to be rewarded for that in the deal......
lol, yeah, I'm sure your opponents feel the same way. By the time you get to the final table of a 300 runner tourney, you guys ARE the best players (more or less). There have been times I was chip leader at the FT and refused to chop amid an outcry from the other three who say "Yeah, but 10 minutes ago you were the chip loser! Chop and let's go home." If I'm tired of sitting there, of if I feel outclassed, or if I'm not the big stack, I'll chop just to end it and get paid. I'm not gonna be a snotty d-bag and get a target on my back.
Chopping is a common end to live tournies, but I wonder how it's handled during WPT or WSOP events. It's never mentioned on air. Did Eastgate and Duhamel really get all that cash, or was there an off-screen deal made, and then play continued for the bracelet? Anyone know for sure? I know Eastgate quit for a year, and I heard he owed so many backers he got discouraged because he didn't feel he got the payoff he thought he deserved for the accomplishment, even sold the bracelet, but re-entered the poker world recently.
Quote: zippyboylol, yeah, I'm sure your opponents feel the same way. By the time you get to the final table of a 300 runner tourney, you guys ARE the best players (more or less). There have been times I was chip leader at the FT and refused to chop amid an outcry from the other three who say "Yeah, but 10 minutes ago you were the chip loser! Chop and let's go home." If I'm tired of sitting there, of if I feel outclassed, or if I'm not the big stack, I'll chop just to end it and get paid. I'm not gonna be a snotty d-bag and get a target on my back.
Chopping is a common end to live tournies, but I wonder how it's handled during WPT or WSOP events. It's never mentioned on air. Did Eastgate and Duhamel really get all that cash, or was there an off-screen deal made, and then play continued for the bracelet? Anyone know for sure? I know Eastgate quit for a year, and I heard he owed so many backers he got discouraged because he didn't feel he got the payoff he thought he deserved for the accomplishment, even sold the bracelet, but re-entered the poker world recently.
I'm not really worried about being a snotty douchebag or having a target. I'm sure I wasn't always the best when I played tournaments but considering I was normally the only one who played for a living I normally felt that I was. That has to be factored into a chop. You have to be able to realistically evaluate yourself and your competition and factor that in before deciding if a deal is in your best interest for you or not.
WPT and WSOP don't allow chops or any deals at all. I've never heard of Eastgate having money problems, he did have backers but a lot of people do. He auctioned off his bracelet for charity not for any personal gain or because he needed the money.
Quote: AyecarumbaHow big a chip lead would you need to not accept a six player chop? Say you had 33% of the chips, and second place had 25%, would you accept it? What if you had 66% and second place had 15%? Does/Should the Kelly determine your response?
I assume you are talking about a chop that is split along the lines of how many chips only? Depends on so many factors that I don't think I could give an answer since my chip lead wouldn't have a lot to do with my decision.
Quote: JimMorrisonI assume you are talking about a chop that is split along the lines of how many chips only? Depends on so many factors that I don't think I could give an answer since my chip lead wouldn't have a lot to do with my decision.
I'm curious... if not the size of your stack relative to the other remaining players, what are your other, "non-stack related" considerations? I suspect:
-- Your assessment of the abilities of the other remaining players.
-- Your own mental / physical fatigue.
-- Whether you will face these same players in the future, when you might be the short stack.
-- Deals that may have already been cut prior.
-- Revenge? A chance to knock out a particular opponent for personal reasons?
The less chips I have, the more adamant I am. in other words, " SHUT UP AND DEAL"
Quote: AyecarumbaI'm curious... if not the size of your stack relative to the other remaining players, what are your other, "non-stack related" considerations? I suspect:
-- Your assessment of the abilities of the other remaining players.
-- Your own mental / physical fatigue.
-- Whether you will face these same players in the future, when you might be the short stack.
-- Deals that may have already been cut prior.
-- Revenge? A chance to knock out a particular opponent for personal reasons?
Personally I don't care about whether I'll face the same players in the future and also don't care about revenge. Or at least I've never been in a situation where it was revenge lol. All the other things you mentioned plus blind structure and a lot of intangibles like my perception of the other players skill vs mine and also what my table image is to the other players etc. For me to take a deal it would have to be in my favor otherwise I'm okay with playing it out.
Quote: buzzpaffI agree Jim, but only if I am offered first place money. That's what I paid my entry fee to shoot for. Otherwise, just shut up
Let's say it's down to two players. You are the short stack with only 10% of the chips, maybe enough for two rounds of blinds and antes. If first place was $1000 and second $500, you wouldn't accept $600 to call it a night? It's not first place money, but it seems a fair offer.
In the first one, when it got down to two final players, the other guy asked me if I wanted to split the money. I politely explained to him that this was the first time I've gotten to this point, and that I really wanted to see if I could win a tournament. He was very nice and said that he understood, and we played on, and an hour later, I had won the tournament.
On the second tournament, when it got down to the final five players, one guy asked if we wanted to split the final prize money. All agreed, including myself, except for one man who pointed at me, and stated that he wouldn't make any deals with me. At this point, I had no idea who this guy was. I figured out later that he had been at my first table, and I had made a suck-out draw against him. Apparently it annoyed him enough to remember it to the final table. Anyway, as you can expect, we got down to four players, a deal was proffered, he again said no. Then down to three players, he again said no. We finally eliminated him, and the other guy asked if I wanted to split the money 50/50. At this point in time, I had figured I had fewer chips than he did, plus he was probably a better player. He said he was willing to split the money 50/50 as long as his name could be on the 1st place. I agreed.
If you don't want to make a deal, then don't. Just politely decline, or state that you want to play out the tournament to see how it goes. On the other hand, if you think you're in a bad situation, against player that are better than you, or if your chip stack is such that you could come out on the profitable end by making a good deal, then go for it.
Personally, I kind of like playing it out.
Quote: AyecarumbaLet's say it's down to two players. You are the short stack with only 10% of the chips, maybe enough for two rounds of blinds and antes. If first place was $1000 and second $500, you wouldn't accept $600 to call it a night? It's not first place money, but it seems a fair offer.[/q
It's fair enough but I would politely decline. Even in this scenario if I double up twice, probably without looking at my cards, the
chips are now 60-40, new ball game. I am no worse than a 3-1 underdog. Besides, if players don't like the payout structure, see the
house, not me !
Quote: CroupierIt is very rare for the poker tournaments at the casino I work in to play to a finish. At the very least a bubble deal is made, and then is normally split when two or three way. this is normally a fairly equal split, unless there is someone with a massive chip lead.
If one of the players decliners, is there any heat from the others ? Just curious !
As with all things, it's situational / depends / sometimes.Quote: buzzpaffIf one of the players decliners, is there any heat from the others ? Just curious !
Quote: buzzpaffIf one of the players decliners, is there any heat from the others ? Just curious !
It depends. We have a relatively small card room with a core of players that generally know each other. There isnt a great deal of heat from others if someone doesnt want to deal, but there are a few players who will offer a deal and get pissed off if it isnt taken.
Coincidentally it is the players that are not very good who get most pissed of when there is a holdout to the deal.
Quote: Croupier
Coincidentally it is the players that are not very good who get most pissed of when there is a holdout to the deal.
I agree with this.
Once I was playing in a small buyin tourney with roughly 80 players ant 10 getting paid. There were 11 left when someone (as always happens in these tourneys) proposed chopping in 11th place for their money back. I was at the other table and I quietly told the dealer I refuse (I had good chip count and since the prize pool for this tourney relatively small already I didn't feel like peeling off anything). The player that proposed the deal was the next to bust. :) That player then came storming over to our table demanding to know who objected. The dealer covered for me by saying that he did. Nice dealer! :)
