Dealer Error Quiz: What happens?

Here is the situation (this happened earlier this week.)

I am in Round 8 of a WSOP Texas Hold'em Tournament. Blinds are $400, $800 with antes of $75.

I am in 3rd position, and short-stacked with about $7,000 and change . The two players before me both fold. I pick up J-J and shove all in. All other players act in turn and throw their hands, except the Big Blind.

The dealer scoops all the antes and blinds into the center and shoves them at me. Seeing that the big blind still has cards face down on the table, I ask the dealer "what is going on?" Dealer says to me "You won. Take the pot." I carefully put an arm around the chips and pull them to me and then muck my hand face-down. Dealer puts his hand on my cards and slides them so they are touching the other mucked cards.

Suddenly the Big Blind speaks up and says "I haven't acted yet." Dealer freezes with his hand still touching my cards on the muck pile. Dealer calls for a manager. Manager interviews the Big Blind - why didn't she speak up sooner? Big Blind says that she was counting my chips. Manager asks me how much I bet? I say I don't know exactly, I was all in. I say I saw cards in front of the Big Blind but assumed she had verbally said "Fold" because I asked Dealer and Dealer responded "You won. Take the pot"

How does manager rule?

1. Cardinal rule of poker - I mucked my cards prematurely, so I lose the hand. And, unfortunately, I am out of the tournament!
2. Dealer error, but hand was over and chips were awarded to a player. Big Blind waited too long to speak up. Play on.
3. Retrieve cards from muck pile, put chips back in the middle and allow Big Blind to act. Big Blind can read my reaction to this decision and use the info for deciding whether to Fold or Call.
4. Declare that the hand is dead, restore everyone's chips and deal again.

I will tell you what the actual decision was in a couple of days.

It depends... In your story you said the dealer still had her hands on your cards. IF... this is the key IF.... the dealer can declare which 2 cards are yours for certain, then the dealer should give you your hand back, pull out the blinds + antees, and tell the BB it's her decision to act facing the amount of your all in.

If the dealer can not get your cards from the muck, then your hand is dead either way because no one knows what they were other than you. You could say aces and hope 2 people folded ace-rag or something of the sort. At this point the casino manager could be NICE and kill the hand for you, or he could rule that you mucked and your hand is dead.

This really all depends on the casino manager and their rules. Hell, they could declare your hand dead, but take the blinds/antees only and give that to the BB.

Most likely scenario: Since the dealer told you that you won and told you to release your hand essentially, it shouldn't be your fault. If I was the casino manager I'd first check if the dealer could still identify your cards. If she could, I'd reconstruct the hand. If she could not, I'd ask for honesty from the BB and ask her if she was going to call. If not, the problem again solves itself. If she was going to call, then I would rule it a dead hand and not punish you the player for my dealer telling you that you won the hand.

I'd bet you got mucked and out. And played by the BB.

I am a Poker Room Manager and AI would handle just as Rome described.

Retrieve the cards and play on if the cards can be retired either by the dealer still knowing which two cards they are or the player whispering his two cards and seeing if the are on top or noticeably next to each other in the muck.

If that is not possible I would award the pot to you and rule the player did not act or dispute the pushing of the pot in a timely manner. I would probable comp the player a dinner or drink for the hassle, depending on how he handied himself during the ordeal.

Under no circumstances would I award the pot to the other player.

ZCore13

i am no poker manager but I think the BB was deliberately remaining silence during the dealer error hoping to gain something. She had multiple chances to point out the error, ie, when the dealer said OP won and when pushing the chips towards him. If she was counting chips, she definitely would have noticed the dealer awarding the OP chips.

The other player wins the pot 0% of the time. You were pushed the pot. There is no way you lose your all in.

Wow. There is a LOT going on with this hand.

Comments to each of the 4 options listed:

1 - You did NOT muck your hand prematurely. You were still holding your cards when the dealer pushed the chips to you.

2 - Big blind waited too long? Yes. The chips were pushed prematurely. THAT action was the error that should have caused the BB to speak up. You asked what was going on. You could have asked if the BB folded. Same thing. The dealer confirmed that the hand is over. You then pull in the pot and then release the hand. THEN the BB speaks up? That is way too long to wait. Maybe not exactly angle shooting, but he wasn't doing a good job of protecting his hand.

3 - Your cards are still identifiable. They could be retrieved and the hand played out. I don't think the BB can read much by your reaction. After all, you are reacting to a very unusual situation after raising all in.

4 - There is way too much significant action to declare the hand dead.

Both option 2 and 3 are viable options, but both will probably cause one of you to complain. At that point the manager may invoke TDA Rule 1.

The proper ruling would be option 2. Since it would be the only acceptable ruling if your cards are not retrievable, it becomes the default option.

That's my opinion, but I'm a rules guru and a member of the Tournament Director's Association.

Quote: gordonm888

The dealer scoops all the antes and blinds into the center

This was the time for BB to speak up if she was planning to stay in the hand. How could you not notice the chips right in front of you were being taken and added to the pot? What player, if she is still considering staying in the hand, would not object right then and there? From your description of the events, this is an angle shot, pure and simple.

IMHO, you should have been given the pot. You won the hand. But, that's not your poll question, which was:

Quote:

How does manager rule?

I'm guessing the TD ruled that you mucked, BB gets the pot, and the dealer, at the very least, owes you a steak dinner.

Edit: I hope I am wrong! :)

If the dealer knows without a doubt which two cards are yours, the hand can, and should, be reconstituted. It was the dealer's error, but in the interest of the game, the hand should be played out.

If the dealer doesn't know, without a doubt, which two cards are yours, the pot should be awarded to you, as all players have an obligation to protect the game, and you did your part by asking the dealer what was going on, and receiving acknowledgement that you won the pot. The BB had an obligation to speak up as soon as her blind was scooped, not after your cards were mucked. She deserves to lose her blind.

Wow, I am very impressed by the expertise of the people who responded, and I learned some new things, particularly from Zcore13 and DJTeddyBear.

As a nitty detail, this was not in some dingy, urine-soaked poker room managed by Barney Fife - this was a World Series Of Poker (WSOP) circuit event tournament with a WSOP dealer and manager who both travel with the circuit. Here is what the WSOP manager decided and how the situation worked out.



Thanks to everyone who voted and commented! I learned something new about resolving poker disputes by going through this experience, and I hope you-all found it interesting too.

Quote: Joeman

Quote: gordonm888

The dealer scoops all the antes and blinds into the center

This was the time for BB to speak up if she was planning to stay in the hand. How could you not notice the chips right in front of you were being taken and added to the pot? What player, if she is still considering staying in the hand, would not object right then and there? From your description of the events, this is an angle shot, pure and simple.

Several people made this point but Joeman says it in a way that made it really sink in. I was so concerned with thinking through my own actions that I didn't think about how the Big Blind acted. I just assumed that she was hyper-focussed on counting my chips, as she claimed. But this didn't happen bang-bang, or in the blink of an eye - the dealer scooped up all the antes and blinds and at least 12 seconds must have then passed as I queried the dealer and he responded., before I drew the chips to me and mucked my cards. What the heck was the Big Blind doing all that time?

Hmmmm. Maybe I've been naive about the Big Blind.

Quote: Joeman

Quote: gordonm888

The dealer scoops all the antes and blinds into the center

This was the time for BB to speak up if she was planning to stay in the hand. How could you not notice the chips right in front of you were being taken and added to the pot?

The only thing I have to add to this discussion is that the antes should have been scooped into the center before any cards were dealt. As for the blinds, I have seen dealers take the initial call and say the raise is X amount more.

To me, the BB is angle shooting, no doubt.

Now the next question is, what is her cost of doing that? if she gets her way, she gets the pot. if she fails, she just "Aw shucks, I'm only fooling" and folds.

I think, in all fairness, if she wants to dispute, then she have to call the hand.

Quote: andysif

To me, the BB is angle shooting, no doubt.

Now the next question is, what is her cost of doing that? if she gets her way, she gets the pot. if she fails, she just "Aw shucks, I'm only fooling" and folds.

I think, in all fairness, if she wants to dispute, then she have to call the hand.

Given the response, I totally agree she was angling now. KITN for her, if she had nuts. I'm glad it was resolved properly though.

Yeah, it seems like a very clear angle to me. I think everyone but BB seems to have behaved quite well.