Bovada Detected Collusion

I received the following message from Bovada. And sure enough the winnings were placed in my account. This is the first time I've had this happen. Glad they did this, but makes you wonder how often collusion goes undetected. I thought I was pretty safe playing low stakes, but apparently not. I stay away from cash games for this very reason. I may have to limit myself to multi-table and 'Zone Poker' where the risk of collusion is minimized.

fyi - for those unfamiliar with Bovada's Zone Poker it's a cash game, but every new hand is played at a new random table with random opponents that the user will be placed in as soon as you either win/lose your hand, or fold your hand. So, if you fold pre-flop, you are moved right away to a new table and an new hand. I know that Full Tilt had this option before Black Friday, although they called it something else.

Dear Mr. XXXXX
Account: XXXXXX

We have concluded that two players in the "Hold'em (Double-Up Turbo) Tournament" that you were involved in have been colluding. As such, their tournament winnings have been removed, and you have been awarded 1st place. We have added $XX to your account. We are committed to providing a fun and safe place for players all over the world to enjoy poker. With that being said, we are constantly monitoring our tables as well as following up on leads from players to ensure that collusion is found and dealt with appropriately.

Should you have any questions, feel free to contact us at 1-866-909-2237.

Regards,
Bovada Poker Security
poker@bovada.lv

I wonder what they do for collusion detection now days... They used to (and I'm talking more than a decade ago) have nothing. Then eventually they filtered IP's so you couldn't play at the same table as someone on your IP. I wonder what they do now, as to me this seems QUITE difficult to prove unless they're just min raising back and forth when 1 of them has a great hand, thus getting a few people to call the mins back and forth just to have the good hand eventually stuff. That would be a pretty stupid way to take advantage of collusion though.

I remember reading a few years back about how a team would sit 6-7 people at a sit-n-go tournament (1 table tourney like a home game, bust and you're done) and they'd win X at a time just by beating the other 3 or so players.

The only other way I could see them telling is if they have software to detect when you throw away one of the better hands. For example say I make a straight but the river gives my partner a flush. When I fold my straight maybe that gets a mark and for the most part they're ignored but when you get 100 marks an hour that would be a sign of collusion to look at the hands further. I suppose there's a lot you could see after the fact, but to me detection would be quite difficult.

I stopped playing online when a lot more of this started filtering in, and especially the "player tracking software" that I believe was basically cheating. It would give you complete statistics on someone you've never played with/against before, which to me is BS. Yeah, that was about 8 years ago.

I read that Poker Stars was taking action to reduce the use of third party software PS Changes.

I don't know how effective this has been.

Good for Bovada! More robust detection and enforcement is required before the resumption of open play nationwide could ever be considered.

I know most of the big boys keep a log of every table and if two people show up at the same table a higher percentage of time than what would be normal, it flags the two for review.

ZCore13

Giving you the money costs them nothing and
makes them look good. To me it's a meaningless
gesture and changes my opinion of them not
a whit.

Quote: Romes

I remember reading a few years back about how a team would sit 6-7 people at a sit-n-go tournament (1 table tourney like a home game, bust and you're done) and they'd win X at a time just by beating the other 3 or so players.

What percentage of the time would they have to win to make it profitable? It sounds like 6-7 is over kill especially with the Vig. It sounds like a cluster F. what was the buy in?

Quote: AxelWolf

What percentage of the time would they have to win to make it profitable? It sounds like 6-7 is over kill especially with the Vig. It sounds like a cluster F. what was the buy in?

I think Bovada used to have 9% vig on the SNG's.

Perhaps in poker tournaments and perhaps also in regular play at electronc casinos we should have a button for TIP-The Fraud Detector.

After all, the decent players have always been the ones paying to keep the cheats out of the casino.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Good for Bovada! More robust detection and enforcement is required before the resumption of open play nationwide could ever be considered.

So you automatically assume this post is not bogus? Good advertising at any rate.

Quote: standbymyman

So you automatically assume this post is not bogus? Good advertising at any rate.

Question my integrity all you want, but I received the message from Bovada, and the funds were in my account. Not sure why you would think otherwise? I mean 18 yo's in a row, I can see, but this?

Quote: standbymyman

So you automatically assume this post is not bogus? Good advertising at any rate.

So you automatically assume HIS post is bogus? What makes you think it may be bogus?

MidwestAP is a long time member in good standing on the forum.

I'm fairly sure has no reason to promote BV. He reported something and I'm fairly certain it happened to him.

And it's a good topic.

What's up with the negative comment?

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding about your comment I'm overlooking?

Poker sites are constantly looking for evidence of collusion. I received more than one email from PokerStars very similar to the one above. And in more than one case, I alerted them to potential collusion, and they investigated and found that there was. Seems perfectly legit to me.

The lesson here? Avoid online gambling. SUPPORT SHELDON ADELSON.

If you want to wager money put in the effort, shower, get dressed and show up at a casino. Wouldn't say the chances are any better but at least you are dealing with an actual deck of cards.

Please say hi to McDermott and the Worm if you run into them. As for Teddy KGB hmmm.... that would be sketchy since I have no idea what he is talking about most of the time.

Quote: DMSCR

The lesson here? Avoid online gambling. SUPPORT SHELSON ADELSON.

That's not the lesson here at all. and it's "Sheldon"

Quote: rsactuary

That's not the lesson here at all. and it's "Sheldon"

Thanks caught that.

Really hope that online gaming doesn't take hold in the U.S.

Quote: Romes

I wonder what they do for collusion detection now days... They used to (and I'm talking more than a decade ago) have nothing. Then eventually they filtered IP's so you couldn't play at the same table as someone on your IP. I wonder what they do now, as to me this seems QUITE difficult to prove unless they're just min raising back and forth when 1 of them has a great hand, thus getting a few people to call the mins back and forth just to have the good hand eventually stuff. That would be a pretty stupid way to take advantage of collusion though.

I remember reading a few years back about how a team would sit 6-7 people at a sit-n-go tournament (1 table tourney like a home game, bust and you're done) and they'd win X at a time just by beating the other 3 or so players.

The only other way I could see them telling is if they have software to detect when you throw away one of the better hands. For example say I make a straight but the river gives my partner a flush. When I fold my straight maybe that gets a mark and for the most part they're ignored but when you get 100 marks an hour that would be a sign of collusion to look at the hands further. I suppose there's a lot you could see after the fact, but to me detection would be quite difficult.

I stopped playing online when a lot more of this started filtering in, and especially the "player tracking software" that I believe was basically cheating. It would give you complete statistics on someone you've never played with/against before, which to me is BS. Yeah, that was about 8 years ago.

Those are almost pointless though, all it does is harm friends who are gathered together trying to play online poker legitimately at somebody's house.

Anyone who is up to no good can easily artificially change IPs, or that's not even necessary with cell phones and skype, you can just video chat whIle on separate networks and separate locations.

Keeping logs makes sense to match to suspicious activity, but I don't think automatically blocking same IPS makes sense. It prevents friendly games at some sites.

Quote: AxelWolf

So you automatically assume HIS post is bogus? What makes you think it may be bogus?

MidwestAP is a long time member in good standing on the forum.

I'm fairly sure has no reason to promote BV. He reported something and I'm fairly certain it happened to him.

And it's a good topic.

What's up with the negative comment?

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding about your comment I'm overlooking?

I didn't assume it was bogus nor did I accept it as truth. I don't know him. I don't know why I even posted that - I have no interest in online gambling.

Quote: Gandler

Those are almost pointless though, all it does is harm friends who are gathered together trying to play online poker legitimately at somebody's house.

Anyone who is up to no good can easily artificially change IPs, or that's not even necessary with cell phones and skype, you can just video chat whIle on separate networks and separate locations.

Keeping logs makes sense to match to suspicious activity, but I don't think automatically blocking same IPS makes sense. It prevents friendly games at some sites.

Never said it didn't hurt regular players too. My friends and I FREQUENTLY (back then) all got together with our laptops and would drink and all play online at separate tables. I loved PLO, another loved low limit NL, another loved high limit NL, another loved sit-n-go's...so we didn't even play the same types of games but when they started the IP filtering they wouldn't let us all play at the same time. Ruined those fun "poker parties" where we'd all drink, make money, then move on to video games or movies or hookers and blow lol (minus the hookers and blow... I wish we were that cool).

Quote: Romes

Never said it didn't hurt regular players too. My friends and I FREQUENTLY (back then) all got together with our laptops and would drink and all play online at separate tables. I loved PLO, another loved low limit NL, another loved high limit NL, another loved sit-n-go's...so we didn't even play the same types of games but when they started the IP filtering they wouldn't let us all play at the same time. Ruined those fun "poker parties" where we'd all drink, make money, then move on to video games or movies or hookers and blow lol (minus the hookers and blow... I wish we were that cool).

Talk about a nerdy new age poker night.

Quote: AxelWolf

Talk about a nerdy new age poker night.

Ha, these were some of my favorite nights. We'd all play our own game, but get in to some big nightly tourney, and by the end of the night a couple of us would cash and 1 of us would make a deep run leaving for entertainment among the rest of us now mostly drunk friends =).

Of course after that (again, this was a decade ago in college) we'd play Halo and destroy everyone while drunk. Everyone and their mother says they were good at that game, but I legitimately beat the 3rd ranked player in the world at the time. I don't want to go in to more details because that could lead to my identity =D... So yes, those nights were a blast!

...You may or may not believe me, but I swear we almost always had attractive females there for the night too =P.

Quote: Romes

Quote: AxelWolf

Talk about a nerdy new age poker night.

Ha, these were some of my favorite nights. We'd all play our own game, but get in to some big nightly tourney, and by the end of the night a couple of us would cash and 1 of us would make a deep run leaving for entertainment among the rest of us now mostly drunk friends =).

Of course after that (again, this was a decade ago in college) we'd play Halo and destroy everyone while drunk. Everyone and their mother says they were good at that game, but I legitimately beat the 3rd ranked player in the world at the time. I don't want to go in to more details because that could lead to my identity =D... So yes, those nights were a blast!

...You may or may not believe me, but I swear we almost always had attractive females there for the night too =P.

you had girls and you had alcohol but you guys were still playing poker?

AxelWolf is right, What a nerdy new age poker night

Quote: andysif

you had girls and you had alcohol but you guys were still playing poker?

AxelWolf is right, What a nerdy new age poker night

...and video games... and we played video games.