DeathMatch for 10K: paisiello v. anonimuss (split from Betting When Small Blind)
Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board:
Equity Win Tie Hand Range
13.52% 13.507% 0.0131% [ 5h4h ]
23.9748% 23.9617% 0.0131% [ AdKd ]
19.8349% 19.8218% 0.0131% [ TcTs ]
19.0762% 19.0631% 0.0131% [ QhJh ]
14.0278% 14.0147% 0.0131% [ 7c7s ]
9.5663% 9.5532% 0.0131% [ 9d8d ]
Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board:
Equity Win Tie Hand Range
19.127% 19.1141% 0.0129% [ 5h4h ]
22.349% 22.3361% 0.0129% [ AdKd ]
19.8653% 19.8523% 0.0129% [ TcTs ]
15.2664% 15.2535% 0.0129% [ QhJd ]
14.0199% 14.007% 0.0129% [ 7c7s ]
9.3724% 9.3595% 0.0129% [ 9d8d ]
As for my personal background which some of you were inquiring about, I am an avid player, but not a professional, with only a few years experience. So most of you probably have much more knowledge and experience than me. I do read quite a bit on the subject and I personally know a number of respected professionals with decades of experience.
Unless I am completely misinterpreting what I have read and been told, what most have you been saying contradicts my understanding on how to play a NL cash game. Calling the small blind with a weak hand seems something a fish would do.
I guess I proposed this scenario before but didnt get a response:
4, 5, A rainbow
You bet the pot and one of the limpers shoves. Do you call? They might only have A,J or maybe they have A,4 or maybe they flopped a set or maybe they have 6,7. Do you risk your entire stack on this?
You are essentially susceptible to the same implied odds that your opponents are. In order for implied odds to really work you need to be sure that your hand is the nuts and that your opponent is going to pay you off 100% of the time. These are big assumptions in a No Limit game.
I would put it to the self-proclaimed professionals on this thread, how important do you think is table image?
Quote: AxelWolfI don't think its good to have a particular table image all the time this could backfire on you, and you may not get you some extra value on certain hands. I want them have no clue how I might play. I would prefer them to be confused each time I do something no matter when or what I play.
The extra value for having a strong table image comes from when you play 54s like it's a big hand. Rarely do this but when you do you are expecting to take down either a moderately sized pot most of the time with a bluff or to take away all of someone's chips if you happen to hit the lottery. I want to clue them in that I have a strong hand and they should fold. This is where the game becomes profitable. Expecting them to pay you off whenever you have AA or hit the 54s on the flop is not going to make you any money in the long run because every fool at the table has the same chance to hit these hands.
Quote: AxelWolfYou should be thinking how you can win each and every hand you hold, I didn't say to play each hand but you should be limiting yourself to ABC hands .
I think you meant to say "shouldn't"?
Quote: AxelWolfYou should be able to win pots with out even knowing yourself what hand you hold.
I think this is true for the reason I stated above: having a strong table image.
Quote: AxelWolfNOPE! you *SHOULD* be ALWAYS be thinking how to win with ANY hand. I didn't say, you should play every hand every time. But, you should never pass up any hand, if you can find a way to win with the hand and make it profitable. I don't care what hand it is.
I think we are mostly on the same page (expect the limping in part of course) but maybe re-read your post again and you see what I was referring to. I think you meant to say "you shouldn't be limiting yourself to ABC poker".
Sorry, not interested in any bet with anyone without seeing the full terms clearly stated in one place. Kind of like not playing Blackjack without knowing the table specific rules first.
Quote: anonimussYou were given the full terms and allowed to pick the poker pros. You'll always find an excuse not to bet. Same as finding as excuse to fold 54s.
And I claim you did not give me the full terms. Ask someone else then if it's fair to accept a bet where the proposer will not list all the terms for you in one place but expects you to go through all his previous posts and assemble a best guess what the full terms are.
Unless your willing to do that then I suggest you drop the issue and move on to another topic. We both have better things to do I think.
Quote: paisielloIf that is what you are trying to get then haven't you reduced your original implied pot odds by a factor of:
(10.54%)/(5.2%) *(31.3%) = 63.4% ?
(assuming you see the river)
Bombing pre is with the sole intention of making everyone fold or at least highly reducing number of preflop callers.
Quote: anonimussI have nothing better to do that take your money. Pick 10 poker pros. Send them the op, let them say whether they'll call, fold or raise. $1K bet I say majority says call, you have fold and raise. What's your excuse now? But, it's obvious, isn't it?
Would you be willing to make it a $10,000 bet? Might be worth my time for that amount.
Quote: paisielloWould you be willing to make it a $10,000 bet? Might be worth my time for that amount.
[Poker announcer voice] "Paisiello counts out the the one thousand...aannnd he's reaching for more... BOOM! He comes over the top with 9k more! It just got interesting!"
Quote: anonimussYou got it. You 15 years old?
[Poker announcer voice] "Looks like we have a call. A lot of spite in that call, Anonimuss thinks its a bluff!"
Quote: endermike[Poker announcer voice] "He counts out the the one thousand...aannnd he's reaching for more... BOOM! He comes over the top with 9k more! It just got interesting!
No it didn't. He'll find another excuse. Just some guy looking for someone to talk to and he'll never put his money where his keyboard is. I really think it's a 15 year old now.
Quote: anonimussQuote: endermike[Poker announcer voice] "He counts out the the one thousand...aannnd he's reaching for more... BOOM! He comes over the top with 9k more! It just got interesting!
No it didn't. He'll find another excuse. Just some guy looking for someone to talk to and he'll never put his money where his keyboard is. I really think it's a 15 year old now.
LOL I am little older than 15 years old (at least chronologically anyway!).
I guess the first question I would have is what is the actual legality of this kind of bet? That is after I win the bet can I legally enforce the terms to make sure I collect?
Quote: anonimussLMAO Just like I said. Excuses already. We post the money with the Wizard. Time for more excuses now from the 15 year old.
That didn't answer my question. You'll forgive me if I don't trust you 100%.
Also I think we would have to modify the OP since as worded I don't think it was specific enough. Maybe you could do that for me also?
Quote: anonimussLMAO Just like I said. Excuses already. We post the money with the Wizard. Time for more excuses now from the 15 year old.
Just give him the clear rules. You will win the bet!
Once the bet has beenr esolved, then the Wiz will distribute the money to the winning individual.
What do you want to enforce? Are you saying you don't trust the Wiz being the escrow holder?
I really do think, apart from a possible bet, perhaps this thread has run its course? We can agree to disagree and move on?
Quote: Lemieux66Just give him the clear rules. You will win the bet!
I did.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHas the Wizard agreed to act as escrow? Seems like he is being volunteered for some work here...
I think it was merely suggested. Of course the Wiz can refuse but the point being, most, if not everybody here trusts the Wiz and if he agrees then we all know the money is safe.
It seems like there is a lot of bickering about silly things here. Just make the bet or don't. We have all stated our case and we now understand that nothing will change the respective sides' minds.
And that's ok :)
Quote: TomspurWhat do you want to enforce? Are you saying you don't trust the Wiz being the escrow holder?
No, I am saying I don't trust the proposer. He might get a lawyer to sue me claiming the bet was not a legal contract or some other law that I am not aware of.
Quote: TomspurI really do think, apart from a possible bet, perhaps this thread has run its course? We can agree to disagree and move on?
Amen to that!
Updated Cliffs:
Here's the Cliffs for you:
Pas: "I'll take your money."
Anon: "Put up."
Pas: "I know you are but what am I?"
Anon: "Is it a bet then?"
Pas: "Make it 10K?"
Anon: "Put up."
Pas: "Homina homina homina homina homina."
Quote: anonimussSo that's a no right? Any more excuses?
No, I want an answer to my questions. I'd be curious what the answer is anyway even if the proposer ends up reneging.
Another thing we will need to do (to make it fair to both parties including the proposer) is to clarify everything for the purposes of this bet:
1) what is the accepted definition of a professional poker player (PPP)?
2) how is the information provided by the PPP confirmed as authentic?
3) is the wizard also the mediator to determine who wins the bet? or this another party?
Probably other things that need to be spelt out as well but I would need some time to think of them. That is if it's OK with you. You could maybe save me some time and work all this out for me?
Quote: anonimussUpdated Cliffs:
Here's the Cliffs for you:
Pas: "I'll take your money."
Anon: "Put up."
Pas: "I know you are but what am I?"
Anon: "Is it a bet then?"
Pas: "Make it 10K?"
Anon: "Put up."
Pas: "Homina homina homina homina homina."
More accurate notes:
Anon: "I bet you are wrong!"
Pais: "Wrong about what?"
Anon: "Read my posts!"
Pais: "Sorry, not going to do that"
Anon: "Chicken!"
Anon [aside to audience]: "Curses! He didn't fall for my scam! On to the next sucker!"
Quote: paisielloLOL I am little older than 15 years old (at least chronologically anyway!).
I'm pretty sure I've met paisiello; you came to WoVCon ///, right? If it's who I remember, he is not 15.
Shouldn't be too hard to pay 10 "pro" poker players to agree with you. $500 each should do it. Hell, maybe even less by just staking them into a small satellite tourney, lol.
The pro can email the Wizard.
The Wizard pays the winner.
I told you, I don't want to talk to you. I want to bet with you. You're just here to talk.
You wasted enough of my time. It's time to bet.
Next thing you do is pm me that it's a bet and I'll post my money first.
Quote: EdgeLookerpaisello,
Shouldn't be too hard to pay 10 "pro" poker players to agree with you. $500 each should do it. Hell, maybe even less by just staking them into a small satellite tourney, lol.
That's what I was thinking.
Quote: anonimussI told you to pick the professional players.
The pro can email the Wizard.
The Wizard pays the winner.
I told you, I don't want to talk to you. I want to bet with you. You're just here to talk.
You wasted enough of my time. It's time to bet.
Next thing you do is pm me that it's a bet and I'll post my money first.
How does the Wizard know it's from a "pro"? How is this authenticated? You are just going to trust me? Awfully nice of you.
Still don't know if the Wizard has agreed to mediate or not. Have you contacted him yet?
You also still haven't answered all my previous questions. Sorry, this takes time but we need to hash out all the details in writing before I bet. If you are not prepared to do that then please stop posting in this thread and move on.
If I define the the details and lay out the terms of the bet is this open to me as well?Quote: paisielloHow does the Wizard know it's from a "pro"? How is this authenticated? You are just going to trust me? Awfully nice of you.
Still don't know if the Wizard has agreed to mediate or not. Have you contacted him yet?
You also still haven't answered all my previous questions. Sorry, this takes time but we need to hash out all the details in writing before I bet. If you are not prepared to do that then please stop posting in this thread and move on.
We can come up with a long list of pros we both agree on, If we get a large number of responses we can put names in a hat and draw 10. this way you would have to pay off a lot of people and have no clue who you really have to pay off. We can verify they are the real people who responded. Via Facebook twitter and some in person.
Anonimuss if the bet is only open to you, I may want to take some of your action.
The gist of my bet is. Would you( the pro) play 4 5ss from the small blind. If no raises were in front of you with 4 or 5 limpers. Average cash game.
If you are serious about the bet I will ask the wizard if he will escrow the money. No lawsuits will be filed and ill sign something to that fact . Not to mention it would be tossed out of court for a few reasons.
Quote: AxelWolfIf I define the the details and lay out the terms of the bet is this open to me as well?
I don't think we'll be hearing any more from Mr. Anon on this. I'm sure he finally realized what a stupid bet he was tryng to make.
Let this be a lesson to all you 15 year olds out there: always, always get the full terms down in writing, otherwise someone WILL try and scam you.
But I would still be interested in the answer about the legality of making bets like this, criminally or civilly. Anyone know?
Quote: paisielloI don't think we'll be hearing any more from Mr. Anon on this. I'm sure he finally realized what a stupid bet he was tryng to make.
Let this be a lesson to all you 15 year olds out there: always, always get the full terms down in writing, otherwise someone WILL try and scam you.
But I would still be interested in the answer about the legality of making bets like this, criminally or civilly. Anyone know?
I have no doubt that Anon would have paid you had you won. I'm also pretty sure that you have very little chance of winning the bet. There's a reason that Axel is also trying to make the bet with you (I also have no doubt that he will pay you if you win).
These guys are both pretty savvy gamblers. I've learned a lot from both of them on this board. If they are tripping over each other trying to get action down against you, that should tell you something.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI have no doubt that Anon would have paid you had you won.
Yes, I am sure he would have. The question I have is how do you define what "winning" is for this bet? Something he pretty much refused to do despite my repeated questions. So something was fishy there, I think.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm also pretty sure that you have very little chance of winning the bet. There's a reason that Axel is also trying to make the bet with you (I also have no doubt that he will pay you if you win).
Well I thought I had a really good chance to win especially since he was brilliant enough to allow me choose the pros! It's like would you let someone you are betting on a coin flip to provide the coin? Well, then again maybe you would, maybe you would...
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThese guys are both pretty savvy gamblers. I've learned a lot from both of them on this board. If they are tripping over each other trying to get action down against you, that should tell you something.
That a sucker is born ever minute? I prefer not to gamble but make bets with +ve EV.
I am open to any one on this if they let me pick the pros as Anon was originally willing to let me do. But I'd also want my other questions answered first before I agreed to anything. If you feel this will take up too much time than it's worth than I might suggest to stop posting in this thread.
Why? are you trying to find a way to back out?Quote: paisiello
But I would still be interested in the answer about the legality of making bets like this, criminally or civilly. Anyone know?
I just want to know if you want to make a legitimate wager(no scam, just a fair bet) if so, I will work on the terms and legalistic and lay them out. If not then I would have to guess you are not truly confident and you are just playing devils advocate/ trolling/ or wont just admit you are wrong.
You tossed out the large wager claiming anything less was not worth your time. I am willing to put in the time coming yup with a fair way we can both agree on even for a smaller wager, if you feel strongly about your views, but you are worried about the size of the wager affecting any bribing possibility. if we make a smaller bet I doubt any pro is going to accept a small bribe and destroy his reputation or personal ethics, let alone 10 or more pros.
Can you kindly just answer answer simple yes I'm interested in the bet or no.
At this points this is reminding me of a not so Gr8player and Varmenti deal where they keep trying to prove something EVERYONE including they themselves knows is BS.
Obviously this is a bit more ambiguous then some Bac betting system. I will have to compare it to DI and you are on the yes side of the DI augment. However, there are some smart guys with logic on the forum. I'm not sure how many people need to tell you, or how lopsided the voting must be in order to convince you that, you are probably wrong and this hand is profitable for most poker players as explained in the OP. I agree if you playing ABC poker with no creativity or balls might turn this into a bad bet. IE: If you call and fold very time the flop does not hit you or a face card hits the flop and you assume you can't move a stubborn guy off his hand. But, if that's the case that same guy will pay you off when you do it the flop with something significant.
at this point I'm fairly certain you wont take a significant bet on this or I wouldn't even give my opinion.
Quote: AxelWolfPeople have been talking about table table image regarding this hand. I think that your table image in this situation may not come in to play as much as people think. Anyone that plays TH realizes that most players are capable of having ANY hand in the Small blind during a un-raised pot and will be Leary of any flop you are participating in. I doubt they will be shocked or fooled to much when you don't show them a premium hand even if you have a fairly tight image.
You're probably right on this point.
Quote: paisielloI am interested for $10K. But I doubt ultimately we will agree on the terms. For example, are you going to let me choose the poker pros as Anon was willing to let me do?
Enough already! Quit beating around the bush! Make a concrete proposal with the terms YOU would find acceptable. Then we will see if Axel finds them acceptable. If so, we have a bet. I would be willing to serve as the judge for you guys.
It has been so many pages of back and forth drivel, what exactly do you want to bet about, paisiello? Or Axel?
Quote: SOOPOOEnough already! Quit beating around the bush! Make a concrete proposal with the terms YOU would find acceptable. Then we will see if Axel finds them acceptable. If so, we have a bet. I would be willing to serve as the judge for you guys.
It has been so many pages of back and forth drivel, what exactly do you want to bet about, paisiello? Or Axel?
I am not the one proposing the bet so I don't have to and I am not going to spend any of my time on this.
And I trust the Wizard not you.
I'm willing to let you come up with a legitimate list of 30 or more names, at that point I will agree on 10 of themQuote: paisielloI am interested for $10K. But I doubt ultimately we will agree on the terms. For example, are you going to let me choose the poker pros as Anon was willing to let me do?
OR
I can come up with a list of 30 or more names and you can chose 10 of them.
OR
You can come up with a list of 30 names, I will come up with a list of 30 names put them all in a "hat" and draw 1 name at a time, try to contact each person until the first 10 answer.
Since you are so confident you are correct this should not be a problem. I assume You want to prove you are right, do this as if it was a scientific experiment and do not try to skew the results just to win the cash or you would then be" scamming". IE don't purposely pick the nitiest players or ones you already have information they in fact always fold 4 5 ss in big blind. Or don't pick someone who has a superstition with 4 5 ss. You should get the point no cherry picking or you will prove nothing. Pick known top poker players. IE They must have appeared on poker after dark at least one time. Must have considerable notoriety. no 1 hit wonders (Chris moneymaker)
we can come up with a formula to make this so no one could pay someone off to lie.
Why don't you come up with your terms and i will see if i agree with them, i will add ask for change or clarification or compromise. At that point we can ask a few third parties to see if there is anything that needs to be added or clarified.
Once we have come to an agreement we will PM a trusted party we both agree on to escrow/hold the amounts and then pay the winner.
I don't know who proposed the initial bet. You indicated 10k so i assumed you were interested (I am interested)Quote: paisielloI am not the one proposing the bet so I don't have to and I am not going to spend any of my time on this.
And I trust the Wizard not you.
if you are just posturing. I'M NOT, (Don't wast my nap time) I wont be wasting your time, only you will be wasting your own time unless you think you have an advantage.
If you think you are right then this should be well worth the time and effort.
NVM what everyone is saying.
I can assure you others will verify my reputation and I'm not blowing smoke up your ass as far as a bet.
I live in Vegas(have for since 1990 many here have meet me and done business with me including Mike and Mission.
None of tat will matter anyways because we will be having someone we trust hold any money.
To go one step further, I will put up 10% in good faith money, you could do the same.
The 10% could be held in a effort to make sure we at least agree to be honest in trying to come up with REASONABLE terms. If one is found to be sandbagging ti kill the bet they lose the 10 percent. IE If you or I reject all 30 or what ever players on the others list. or try to make some insane rule that is an obvious deal breaker. IE. I want to meet each pro in person and verify he/she was the one on his twitter account.
Do you want to make a bet yes or no? If so we will take it one step at a time.
