Rule violation or "bad form"
its a medium size pot.....on the river a third spade shows....the hand is checked by 2 reamining players.
one player as he is turning his cards over announces ..."a flush".....the other guy in disgust throws his cards in the muck...they slide under the dead cards...just as he does that...the player who announced the flush...says "just kidding".
I know the hothead that threw away his cards is an idiot for doing that.
Is there anything illegle with the announcement by the other player.
the floor was called and the ruling was if the cards are touching the muck...they are dead.
I am not sure if he did it on purpose or if he was just a jerky kid that said something stupid while at the same time his opponent DID something stupid.
But it's not a rule violation because there's no way to determine if the player who calls his hand misread his hand or not.
Never throw your hand away until you see the winning hand on the felt.
I'm not sure how common this rule is, but I know that I've seen it in more than one place.
Reminds me of a sort of similar situation btwn JRB and Phil Hellmuth
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI have played in card rooms where if you call a hand that is stronger than your actual hand, your hand is dead and the other guy wins the pot, even if his cards hit the muck.
I'm not sure how common this rule is, but I know that I've seen it in more than one place.
I don't think that's a common rule. More likely the offender would be asked to leave (or at least be asked to not verbalize his hand) if he did it multiple times with the intent of deceiving others, I would think. I don't play tons of live casino poker, but every time I have seen it happen it was from a person that was clearly clueless and you would never who you would never want to leave the table anyway.
If it were my room I would warn the hothead to be more careful and I would issue a final warning to the kid who was being a jerk.
But that's just me
I have experienced maybe twice in my life that I can remember, where I turned over my cards thinking I had one pair, and actualy had a straght or flush that escaped me.
I have seen it happen to others as well.
Heck even phil ivey threw away a flush on the WSOP a couple years ago late in the tournament
all the more reason the man in my scenario was stupid for throwing those cards away so soon
and I think the type of behavior by the other player is self limiting...the more he does it..the better chance of someone having a discussion with him in the parking lot.
It's not just "in the casinos where I play,"Quote: LarrySin the casinos where I play, there is the "cards speak" rule. The way i understand it is that I dont have to announce my hand. I just turn them over and the dealer decides who wins based on what the cards "say".
"Cards Speak" is a universal rule.
In fact, it is so universal that, once a hand is tabled face up, the dealer (or anyone!) reads the hand. "Anyone" because if the dealer reads it wrong, anybody that notices the error is obligated to point it out.
Note that cards only speak once tabled face up. If a player shows a neighbor, that neighbor is obligated to keep his mouth shut.
In that video clip, Phil Helmuth is wrong. Sometimes you make the call on the river because you're paying to see the hand. If the bettor surrenders, he must fully surrender by mucking his cards. Once the hand is mucked, the last person with cards, even if they haven't been shown, is the winner.
In cash games, the cards do not need to be shown to win the showdown.
In a tournament, it's a different story. If called, the last aggressive player MUST show his cards. The caller then can muck his cards if he can't beat the hand.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIn cash games, the cards do not need to be shown to win the showdown.
In a tournament, it's a different story. If called, the last aggressive player MUST show his cards. The caller then can muck his cards if he can't beat the hand.
So let me get this straight, since I don't play a lot of poker. In a tournament game, the last player to raise and get called (hence "aggressive") is required to show his cards. Hence the expression "paying to see his hand." So even if he knows he's beat (because the caller has revealed his hand first), he must show.
But at a cash game, in that same situation, the last aggressive player could muck his hand after seeing he has been beat? I don't quite get the subtlety here, I guess.
Quote: AcesAndEightsSo let me get this straight, since I don't play a lot of poker. In a tournament game, the last player to raise and get called (hence "aggressive") is required to show his cards. Hence the expression "paying to see his hand." So even if he knows he's beat (because the caller has revealed his hand first), he must show.
But at a cash game, in that same situation, the last aggressive player could muck his hand after seeing he has been beat? I don't quite get the subtlety here, I guess.
The difference is etiquette vs rules.
In a tournament, it is a Rule, because the tournament has to protect all of the other players at other tables. What happens on this one hand, will have an impact on other players later on (in the form of chips either won or lost by this hand).
In a cash game, the rule is still the same, the aggressor has to show his cards first. But in a cash game, there are no other competitors that need to be protected. If the aggressor was bluffing, and doesn't want to show, he basically says, "you have the better hand, I give", and throws his cards in the muck. In this case, etiquette of the cash game is, since he is giving up interest in the hand, he can do so. The remaining player wins the pot. Once again, etiquette says the winning player will show his hand, BUT, I don't think there is any RULE in a cash game that says he MUST show his hand, since he in the only player holding cards, he wins.
Quote: RaleighCraps...in a cash game, there are no other competitors that need to be protected.
Not really true. The other players who might have been in the hand earlier but have folded have a vested interest since the two remaining players might be colluding. This is why during a showdown any player at the table can request to see both hands.
Quote: RaleighCraps...etiquette says the winning player will show his hand...
Never understood the etiquette of this especially when the aggressor hasn't mucked their hand but only verbally surrenders. And then on top of that they can always slow roll you.
He can request it, but if he's just taking a shot, he will have to dig my hand out of the muck !
Quote: paisielloNot really true. The other players who might have been in the hand earlier but have folded have a vested interest since the two remaining players might be colluding. This is why during a showdown any player at the table can request to see both hands.
Never understood the etiquette of this especially when the aggressor hasn't mucked their hand but only verbally surrenders. And then on top of that they can always slow roll you.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in agreement with the status quo on this topic.
It is my opinion the rule should be, the aggressor, if called, MUST show their hand. Cash, Tournament, NL, Pot limit, I don't care. One rule, universally enforced. It's the price you pay for being the aggressor. Either force the other parties out of the hand, or be prepared to show yours.
Then there is no gamesmanship, and no one getting bent out of shape over perceived etiquette violations.
Quote: BuzzardI am of the opinion if you want to see my hand, then you MUST pay to see it. Once you fold, that's it. If you think I am cheating, just say so and we will go from there !
I completely agree. BUT, once you have been called, assuming you were the last raise or the last bettor, then you should have to show your cards, whether you know you are beat or not. I paid to call you, and now I want to see them.
I could have the nuts, but why should I be accused of slow rolling, while I wait to see what your hand holds (again, assuming you were the aggressor in the hand).
Usually a guy is just taking a shot if he folded and then wants to see my cards. F*** HIM.
Yes. That's the idea.Quote: RaleighCraps...I paid to call you, and now I want to see them.
If the aggressor mucks, you can still ask to see the cards.
In fact, anyone dealt in can ask.
But here's the key: If the person who asks is the person who would otherwise win the pot because he mucked, then the hand is live. If the aggressor mucked a winning hand and the other person was the one who wanted to see, then the aggressor wins the pot. IF it was anyone else who asked, the dealer will touch the cards to the muck, killing the hand, and then show it.
In a pretty nice pot it came down to me and another. The board had 2 pair and an ace kicker. I had a smaller pocket pair. We both check on the river. I turn my cards over saying nothing, the other guy has nothing and shows his cards to the table in the air, and slams them face down in the middle of the felt...the dealer who I had a good relationship with grabbed the cards and mucked them fast just as the person next to him was telling the player that he threw away a split pot.
the dealer did his job,,and did it very well and very quickly protecting my win, and knowing from past experience that he would get a nice tip for it.
In this case the player showed his cards and if he was showing them anyway...why not just turn them up on the felt....but it didnt happen.
I have seen situations like that a few times.Quote: LarrySthat kind of reminded me of a hand and a lesson about the virtues of tipping the dealer.
In a pretty nice pot it came down to me and another. The board had 2 pair and an ace kicker. I had a smaller pocket pair. We both check on the river. I turn my cards over saying nothing, the other guy has nothing and shows his cards to the table in the air, and slams them face down in the middle of the felt...the dealer who I had a good relationship with grabbed the cards and mucked them fast just as the person next to him was telling the player that he threw away a split pot.
the dealer did his job,,and did it very well and very quickly protecting my win, and knowing from past experience that he would get a nice tip for it.
In this case the player showed his cards and if he was showing them anyway...why not just turn them up on the felt....but it didnt happen.
If he mucks his hand? Or folds it?Quote: DJTeddyBearYes. That's the idea.
If the aggressor mucks, you can still ask to see the cards.
In fact, anyone dealt in can ask.
But here's the key: If the person who asks is the person who would otherwise win the pot because he mucked, then the hand is live. If the aggressor mucked a winning hand and the other person was the one who wanted to see, then the aggressor wins the pot. IF it was anyone else who asked, the dealer will touch the cards to the muck, killing the hand, and then show it.
Purposely tossing your hand in the muck in order to keep others from seeing it, can get you kicked out for the night.Quote: Buzzard" This is why during a showdown any player at the table can request to see both hands. "
He can request it, but if he's just taking a shot, he will have to dig my hand out of the muck !
I have been warned a few times. You get guys that try to bluff you with nothing. You call, they fold there hand quick,then ask to see your hand. I say ok then reach over and stuff them in the muck.
I don't understand having to show cards when you're the only one left in the hand. If they want the information, you should be able to demand a fee to reveal your private information. Those rules otherwise sound like being a prisoner.Quote: AxelWolfPurposely tossing your hand in the muck in order to keep others from seeing it, can get you kicked out for the night.
I have been warned a few times. You get guys that try to bluff you with nothing. You call, they fold there hand quick,then ask to see your hand. I say ok then reach over and stuff them in the muck.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI don't understand having to show cards when you're the only one left in the hand. If they want the information, you should be able to demand a fee to reveal your private information. Those rules otherwise sound like being a prisoner.
It's supposed to be to protect players from collusion although in practice no one ever asks to see the hand because they suspect collusion.
I'm just speaking as an outsider, I believe what you say they say, but my problem understanding the rationale is you're allowed to play 3,2, play wild, and play suicidally. Therefore, I get lost unless those actions are illegal. I'll stay out of this further, because my ideas are not about the way it is.Quote: paisielloIt's supposed to be to protect players from collusion although in practice no one ever asks to see the hand because they suspect collusion.
Quote: AxelWolfPurposely tossing your hand in the muck in order to keep others from seeing it, can get you kicked out for the night.
I have been warned a few times. You get guys that try to bluff you with nothing. You call, they fold there hand quick,then ask to see your hand. I say ok then reach over and stuff them in the muck.
This is something that should be made clear. Players are never allowed to muck their own cards. Players discard their hand, and the dealer put the cards in the muck. The dealer should be protecting the muck to prevent players from doing this.
Quote: IbeatyouracesNever saw that enforced.
Often a dealer will pull the muck towards them and possibly tuck it under a portion of the pot. They may also rest their hand on it. Not all dealers do it, but some do.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI know where it goes, I dealt poker. I'm just saying I've never seen it enforced.
Oh sorry, I missed your point. I thought you meant you did not know how a dealer did such protection. My bad.
If I know a guy is being an Ass (including myself) I have been in bitter poker battles VS a player. Some people just rub you the wrong way, or you don't like them and they don't like you. Some room allow A LOT of leeway. especially if the tips are flowing and the action is incredible. I have seen and probably been involved in very bad behavior.Quote: IbeatyouracesAlso, I've never seen the muck pile protected after the board has been dealt out.
Anyways, if I know a guy is probably going to try to muck his hand. I will tell the dealer to protect the muck.
