Greasyjohn
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January 2nd, 2014 at 12:33:03 PM permalink
I saw a guy on YouTube just call with the nuts, and that's against the rules. Is the rule in place so that players don't go easy on friends or confederates?
Ibeatyouraces
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January 2nd, 2014 at 12:34:15 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
AxelWolf
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January 2nd, 2014 at 1:59:47 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Yes. It's to prevent collusion.

Ya, I think its dumb Its probably more so, so the casinos get max rake. I ran into this a few weeks ago, I can't remember what casino. Some guy just called with the nut flush. Of course the table caption(i don't know why, but when i say, table caption, I think of some guy like Bob) notices he just called, as we all noticed. The table caption made a big deal of it for no reason. The kid who made this mistake was a newbie and didn't realize he had the nuts, because the ace was on board and he had the king in his hand.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
thecesspit
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January 2nd, 2014 at 2:05:50 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Ya, I think its dumb Its probably more so, so the casinos get max rake. I ran into this a few weeks ago, I can't remember what casino. Some guy just called with the nut flush. Of course the table caption(i don't know why, but when i say, table caption, I think of some guy like Bob) notices he just called, as we all noticed. The table caption made a big deal of it for no reason. The kid who made this mistake was a newbie and didn't realize he had the nuts, because the ace was on board and he had the king in his hand.



The Table Captain? Those guys are the worst, and the best I found to get up and leave a table when I was having a 50/50 time of it.

Players should be able to play their hand the way they see fit, even if that is flat calling the nuts. It's a bluffingame, after all. Maybe I'm playing dumb for a later hand/ Maybe I know a raise is pointless at this juncture. Gah.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Stoney
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January 2nd, 2014 at 2:20:14 PM permalink
what if it's a situation where you want to see the guys hand? maybe you think you picked up on a tell and want to see what he has. maybe you just want to embarass him. if you raise, he folds, and you get nothing more than the money you would have won anyways.
Ibeatyouraces
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January 2nd, 2014 at 2:24:38 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
AxelWolf
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January 2nd, 2014 at 2:28:14 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

The Table Captain? Those guys are the worst, and the best I found to get up and leave a table when I was having a 50/50 time of it.

Players should be able to play their hand the way they see fit, even if that is flat calling the nuts. It's a bluffingame, after all. Maybe I'm playing dumb for a later hand/ Maybe I know a raise is pointless at this juncture. Gah.

I agree, there are a few different situations you may just want to call with the nuts. One reason might be: A guy bets small on the river, you are 100% sure he will fold if you raise, however you want to see his hand. I know some places have a rule, you can ask to see the hand, but that creates conflict. Some places don't have that rule, unless you suspect cheating. Also some guy could just toss his hand in the muck.

There could be a situation where raising will only cause the rake to inflate and you have a nut split hand.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
98Clubs
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January 2nd, 2014 at 2:48:11 PM permalink
Quote: Stoney

what if it's a situation where you want to see the guys hand? maybe you think you picked up on a tell and want to see what he has. maybe you just want to embarass him. if you raise, he folds, and you get nothing more than the money you would have won anyways.



Stoney raises a good point. You might have picked up a tell, especially after being re-raised earlier. Other than that, its juice for the rake.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Ayecarumba
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January 2nd, 2014 at 2:53:24 PM permalink
I recall this happened in the WSOP a few years ago, when the, "lumberjack" guy had a flush but did not bet. He was penalized one orbit of blinds. I recall that a straight flush would be possible with the board cards, so I was puzzled since he didn't technically have the "nuts".
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
sodawater
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January 2nd, 2014 at 5:48:09 PM permalink
this is a stupid rule and it is not in effect in NJ.
tringlomane
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January 2nd, 2014 at 5:53:32 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I recall this happened in the WSOP a few years ago, when the, "lumberjack" guy had a flush but did not bet. He was penalized one orbit of blinds. I recall that a straight flush would be possible with the board cards, so I was puzzled since he didn't technically have the "nuts".



In that case, they would have got the ruling wrong then. It has to be the nuts on board.

I have only heard this rule being enforced in tournaments, more specifically the WSOP. I don't have a problem with it, but it usually penalizes those that aren't trying to angle the game.
Ibeatyouraces
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January 2nd, 2014 at 5:57:47 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
98Clubs
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January 2nd, 2014 at 6:45:09 PM permalink
busted... thanks Ibeatyouraces
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
bdc42
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February 9th, 2014 at 2:50:47 AM permalink
he did have the nuts. straight was not possible.
bdc42
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February 9th, 2014 at 2:56:04 AM permalink
the max rake thing is a non-issue. if he folds to a raise, the pot is not raked from your bet, only called wagers. I think its a good rule. why, collusion is the "reason", most colluders (?) playing as a team wouldn't get into a situation like this. I think it helps keep "friends" from soft playing one another, which is a big gripe of mine. if you would punish my 3rd nut flush, why not punish your "friend"? I've seen stuff like top full house just call or check as the last bettor to their friend and it is really irritating. the point of having a tell is valid, but I think the good of the game is more protected with the rule in place. imo.
DrMeh
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February 9th, 2014 at 3:11:32 PM permalink
I like the rule as long as discretion is used. How else can you help combat collusion? The discretion occurs when deciding whether or not it was an honest mistake. I've seen too many colluding players and think some additional measures need to be in place to prevent it. I don't know what those measures would be though.
socks
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February 12th, 2014 at 8:10:04 PM permalink
I have my doubts this is a rule in non-tournament games. In tournaments, you want to prevent chip dumping since everyone's equity is effected by the actions of the people in a hand. In a ring game, anyone who was in the hand can ask to see a hand the hand, though some casinos require you justify the request especially if you make multiple requests.
24Bingo
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February 12th, 2014 at 9:06:02 PM permalink
I've never heard of this rule before. I suppose calling to close the action is suspicious, but I at least hope it's restricted to that.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
MathExtremist
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February 12th, 2014 at 9:17:35 PM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

I saw a guy on YouTube just call with the nuts, and that's against the rules. Is the rule in place so that players don't go easy on friends or confederates?


I hope that's only for Hold'em games. In Omaha 8 you often want to call with a nut low if you're going to get quartered.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Buzzard
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February 12th, 2014 at 9:28:45 PM permalink
There is collusion all the time, even in the WSOP. A player is all in pre-flop, and 2 other players with bigger stacks call. You can bet your ass that's all the action you'll see. Neither will want to force the other out of the pot and have the all-in player go up against one hand instead of two. Happens all the time, and commentators will even comment about how smart the 2 players are.
Players who always bet and/or raise at almost every opportunity, will check all the way to the river.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
paisiello
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February 12th, 2014 at 11:09:41 PM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

I've never heard of this rule before. I suppose calling to close the action is suspicious, but I at least hope it's restricted to that.


I just asked Matt Savage this very question. TDA rules prohibit any soft playing. However, whether or not the player is actually penalized is left up to the discretion of the tournament director since it's always possible it was an honest mistake.
mickeycrimm
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February 13th, 2014 at 3:18:18 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

There is collusion all the time, even in the WSOP. A player is all in pre-flop, and 2 other players with bigger stacks call. You can bet your ass that's all the action you'll see. Neither will want to force the other out of the pot and have the all-in player go up against one hand instead of two. Happens all the time, and commentators will even comment about how smart the 2 players are.
Players who always bet and/or raise at almost every opportunity, will check all the way to the river.



Sandbagging is a perfectly legitimate strategy in this spot. But if one of the callers develops a big hand he has no reason to sandbag anymore.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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February 13th, 2014 at 3:25:41 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

In Omaha 8 you often want to call with a nut low if you're going to get quartered.



There is another reason to just call with the nut low in Omaha 8 or Tahoe Split. Sometimes, when you have the nut low but nothing for high, and you have player's behind you who may call with second or third nut low you don't want to drive them out of the pot with a raise. You actually have to do a little acting in this spot. If you automatically call when it's your turn to act it's a tell to them that you have the nut low. So you have to do a little hesitation and act like you are debating with yourself before you call.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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February 13th, 2014 at 3:48:18 AM permalink
The only bracelet Annie Duke ever won at the WSOP was for the 2004 $2000 Omaha 8 event. And, of course, it's one of the things she touts in her publicity statements. But I know something about that event....

I was downstairs sitting in a 10-20 Omaha 8 game at the Horseshoe. Upstairs in Benny's Bullpen the final table was going for the $2000 Omaha 8 event. Whenever I took a break from the game I would go upstairs and railbird the final table. The faces I recognized were Eric Seidel, Robert "Chip Burner" Turner, and Annie Duke. The last time I went upstairs there were just a few players left with Eric Seidel and Annie Duke being two of them.

I was back down in the 10-20 game when someone came down the escalator and announced "Annie got the bracelet!" In a very mean tone the guy sitting next to me said:

"If she had a dick she wouldn't have won it!"
"What do you mean?" I asked. He was agitated and repeated the statement.
"What do you mean by that?" I asked again.

He said "Look, with about 50 players left Annie was in a hand with Robert Turner. It was down on the river. She only had a few chips left. Not even enough to make a full call. She checked. Turner checked behind her and said 'I refuse to take a lady's last chips.' Annie rolled over two pair and the third nut low. Turner rolled over nut-nut. She had to call if he bet! She would have been knocked out!"

"You saw that?" I asked.
"Hell yeah!" he said. "I was sitting at the table watching it. The bitch knocked me out twentieth!"
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
beachbumbabs
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February 13th, 2014 at 3:56:22 AM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

The only bracelet Annie Duke ever won at the WSOP was for the 2004 $2000 Omaha 8 event. And, of course, it's one of the things she touts in her publicity statements. But I know something about that event....

I was downstairs sitting in a 10-20 Omaha 8 game at the Horseshoe. Upstairs in Benny's Bullpen the final table was going for the $2000 Omaha 8 event. Whenever I took a break from the game I would go upstairs and railbird the final table. The faces I recognized were Eric Seidel, Robert "Chip Burner" Turner, and Annie Duke. The last time I went upstairs there were just a few players left with Eric Seidel and Annie Duke being two of them.

I was back down in the 10-20 game when someone came down the escalator and announced "Annie got the bracelet!" In a very mean tone the guy sitting next to me said:

"If she had a dick she wouldn't have won it!"
"What do you mean?" I asked. He was agitated and repeated the statement.
"What do you mean by that?" I asked again.

He said "Look, with about 50 players left Annie was in a hand with Robert Turner. It was down on the river. She only had a few chips left. Not even enough to make a full call. She checked. Turner checked behind her and said 'I refuse to take a lady's last chips.' Annie rolled over two pair and the third nut low. Turner rolled over nut-nut. She had to call if he bet! She would have been knocked out!"

"You saw that?" I asked.
"Hell yeah!" he said. "I was sitting at the table watching it. The bitch knocked me out twentieth!"



That is a total classic, mickey. Belongs in a book somewhere for sure. lol...
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
slyther
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February 13th, 2014 at 10:26:11 AM permalink
cool story
Ayecarumba
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February 13th, 2014 at 10:47:46 AM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

..."You saw that?" I asked.
"Hell yeah!" he said. "I was sitting at the table watching it. The bitch knocked me out twentieth!"



That gentleman would have been Kent Ervin of Salt Lake City, Utah. He finished just ahead of Phil Hellmuth.

The internet indicates Mr. Ervin may have passed away in 2010.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
RogerKint
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February 13th, 2014 at 10:57:49 AM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

The only bracelet Annie Duke ever won at the WSOP was for the 2004 $2000 Omaha 8 event. And, of course, it's one of the things she touts in her publicity statements. But I know something about that event....



These stories are great but what amazes me more is your memory. I probably drink 1/100th of what you put away and I can't remember last week.
100% risk of ruin
mickeycrimm
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February 13th, 2014 at 12:46:07 PM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

These stories are great but what amazes me more is your memory. I probably drink 1/100th of what you put away and I can't remember last week.



Well, my memory is not perfect. I just googled the results and seen that Robert Turner wasn't at the final table. I had railbirded the entire event when I would take breaks from the 10-20 game. At one point I seen Turner and Duke at the same table, but it must have been long before the final table. And Kent Ervin would have been at that table too, but I never put two and two together about him.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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February 13th, 2014 at 12:47:27 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

That gentleman would have been Kent Ervin of Salt Lake City, Utah. He finished just ahead of Phil Hellmuth. The internet indicates Mr. Ervin may have passed away in 2010.



From the picture that is definitely him. Thanks for digging this up, Ayecarumba.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
mickeycrimm
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February 13th, 2014 at 12:50:51 PM permalink
P.S. I'm leaving in about an hour on a road trip. I'm gonna travel light so won't be bringing the laptop. I want to make the trip as fast as possible. I could be gone as long as two weeks. So I will be incommunicado unless the hotels have a computer in the lobby. I'll try not to just call with the nuts. Good Luck!
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
Buzzard
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February 13th, 2014 at 12:56:30 PM permalink
Amazing how many guys some people consider a low life, poker player, dealer,bar owner, tin man, etc served their country. Kent earned a Purple Heart in Vietnam. That make him OK in my book.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
1BB
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February 13th, 2014 at 2:03:37 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

Amazing how many guys some people consider a low life, poker player, dealer,bar owner, tin man, etc served their country. Kent earned a Purple Heart in Vietnam. That make him OK in my book.



That goes for you too, Buzz. Not the low life part, the Vietnam part. There is a special place in my heart for all our fellow Vietnam Vets.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Buzzard
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February 13th, 2014 at 2:11:13 PM permalink
Hey, Vietnam Era Vet. That's all. USAF. Did volunteer for a special Warrant Officer program. In 1962. But flunked eye exam . Had to be 20-20 uncorrected. That's was saved me, all things considered. Helicopter pilot was the job title. Wonder what my chances of survival until 1966 would have been.

Had an uncle who could not join VFW because he never served overseas. I am a Vietnam Era Vet. Saw the world in 4 years
San Antonio, Greenville Mississippi, Birmingham Alabama, back to San antonio for 3 years. Talk about a red neck tour of duty. LOL
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Beardgoat
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February 13th, 2014 at 2:22:11 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

The only bracelet Annie Duke ever won at the WSOP was for the 2004 $2000 Omaha 8 event. And, of course, it's one of the things she touts in her publicity statements. But I know something about that event....

I was downstairs sitting in a 10-20 Omaha 8 game at the Horseshoe. Upstairs in Benny's Bullpen the final table was going for the $2000 Omaha 8 event. Whenever I took a break from the game I would go upstairs and railbird the final table. The faces I recognized were Eric Seidel, Robert "Chip Burner" Turner, and Annie Duke. The last time I went upstairs there were just a few players left with Eric Seidel and Annie Duke being two of them.

I was back down in the 10-20 game when someone came down the escalator and announced "Annie got the bracelet!" In a very mean tone the guy sitting next to me said:

"If she had a dick she wouldn't have won it!"
"What do you mean?" I asked. He was agitated and repeated the statement.
"What do you mean by that?" I asked again.

He said "Look, with about 50 players left Annie was in a hand with Robert Turner. It was down on the river. She only had a few chips left. Not even enough to make a full call. She checked. Turner checked behind her and said 'I refuse to take a lady's last chips.' Annie rolled over two pair and the third nut low. Turner rolled over nut-nut. She had to call if he bet! She would have been knocked out!"

"You saw that?" I asked.
"Hell yeah!" he said. "I was sitting at the table watching it. The bitch knocked me out twentieth!"



So she had 1 bet left and came all the way back to win? Quite a comeback
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