Protecting your hand

"Protecting your hand" was mentioned in the Poker Lessons For Life thread, and it got me thinking.

Is it possible to protect your hand too much?

I was in a hand where I was in seat 1, small blind. The flop gave me top pair and a back-end straight. After the flop betting, only me, seat 7 and seat 9 remained in the hand.

The turn put an over card out there, but it also gave me an open ended straight draw. I checked, Seat 7 threw a few chips in, and then the dealer turned to me. I could not see if seat 9 folded or not, but since I didn't see chips, I figured he folded. I called. The dealer fliped over the river, and THEN seat 9 speaks up.

Apparently, he had his hands over his cards to the point where the dealer didn't see them.

The river gave me my straight, but it was shuffled back in.

I was pissed.

I realize that it could have been a different card thus the situation might have helped me, but I was pissed.

I also realize that I should have asked if he folded. But the dealer was looking at me, waiting for me to act. Doesn't that indicate that it is my turn? In that case shouldn't seat 9 have said something at that point?


Does overprotection like that, to the point where nobody realized he still had cards, cause the hand to be declared dead?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

"Protecting your hand" was mentioned in the Poker Lessons For Life thread, and it got me thinking.

Is it possible to protect your hand too much?

I was in a hand where I was in seat 1, small blind. The flop gave me top pair and a back-end straight. After the flop betting, only me, seat 7 and seat 9 remained in the hand.

The turn put an over card out there, but it also gave me an open ended straight draw. I checked, Seat 7 threw a few chips in, and then the dealer turned to me. I could not see if seat 9 folded or not, but since I didn't see chips, I figured he folded. I called. The dealer fliped over the river, and THEN seat 9 speaks up.

Apparently, he had his hands over his cards to the point where the dealer didn't see them.

The river gave me my straight, but it was shuffled back in.

I was pissed.

I realize that it could have been a different card thus the situation might have helped me, but I was pissed.

I also realize that I should have asked if he folded. But the dealer was looking at me, waiting for me to act. Doesn't that indicate that it is my turn? In that case shouldn't seat 9 have said something at that point?


Does overprotection like that, to the point where nobody realized he still had cards, cause the hand to be declared dead?

I'm confused. Did you win? What was shuffled back in?

I'm no poker room manager, but if I was I would declare seat 9's hand dead after the dealer asked you to act and he hadn't spoken up. I would also warn seat 9 that he cannot hide his cards so much, they must be visible to the dealer. If he did it again I'd 86 him for the day.

When I deal poker I both point to the person and say, "action?" On Sat I pointed at a guy, who didn't know how to play, and he turned his cards over! Then he acted as if it was *my* fault saying, "you pointed at me, I thought I had to show them!" THEN I do show them to the remaining 2 players. A guy who was a total jerk at the end of the table starts complaining so I tell him, "if a card gets exposed to one player everyone gets to see them." Then the second player throws their cards over, thinking it was a showdown even though it was just the flop. What a mess!

People see poker on TV and want to play, but you would think they would learn at least rank of hands.

It is a tough situation, sometimes due to the table being cramped, it is hard to look directly at a player, and even point to players as you go which are sat in certain seats. The house rule however is that all cards must be visible, and if a player is missed due to cards being obscured, he can call any further action but cannot bet or raise. The player is also given a warning, and if it consistenly happens he is penalised.

Quote: AZDuffman

I'm confused. Did you win? What was shuffled back in?

Sorry about that.

Yeah, the first river card, the one that would have given me a straight, was shuffled back in.

As it turned out, seat 7 and I split the pot. We had the same high card, and with the new river, we had the same hand. If the original river played, I would have taken the pot by myself.

I don't know how he was able to hide his hand. Still, the dealer needs to know how many people are in each hand after each turn of the card. I admit dealers can make mistakes, but what if he had held on to those cards into the next hand?! I'm really surprised they re-dealt the river. I would have said seat 9 can call the bet and that is all, then the river betting starts...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Sorry about that.

Yeah, the first river card, the one that would have given me a straight, was shuffled back in.

As it turned out, seat 7 and I split the pot. We had the same high card, and with the new river, we had the same hand. If the original river played, I would have taken the pot by myself.

I would have called for the floorman for a ruling. They should not have done that.

Quite frankly, if he was allowed to call the bet, and the card was not shuffled in, I would never play at that casino again.

My argument was intended to get his hand called dead so that I didn't lose the card I needed.

How he was able to conceal it, was simple. He simply had his hands folded on top of his cards. I saw him do it a couple hands later and pointed it out.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quite frankly, if he was allowed to call the bet, and the card was not shuffled in, I would never play at that casino again.

My argument was intended to get his hand called dead so that I didn't lose the card I needed.

How he was able to conceal it, was simple. He simply had his hands folded on top of his cards. I saw him do it a couple hands later and pointed it out.

That is where the floorman should have 86d him for the day at the first warning and forever on the second.

Reminds me of a buddy said they have a "cheater" who plays their home games. Guy shufles the cards under the table and offers no cut. My reaction was, "Why didn't you guys put an end to that the first time it happened?" Later the "cheater" supposedly said fold then said, "WAIT" when he saw the flop. Nothing is more annoying than such a player.

By the way, I did call for a floorman.

The hand was ruled live, and he was warned.

When I saw it the second time, the dealer warned him.

I also told him that if he likes to fold his hands on the table, that's fine, but he has to have his cards out where they can be seen.

After that, he DID keep his cards out, with his hands folded behind them.

By the way, was this in AC? If so, I'd hazard a guess as to which poker room it happened in. A place where they had a GREAT floorman, and they moved him back to Craps. But that's okay, now I see him more over there.

I don't know about the particular floorman, but, yeah, it was in AC, at the Taj Majal. And THAT surprises me, since they have a reputation for running a good poker room.

I agree with the surprise. It would have been the last place I would have selected. Borgata gets credit as probably the best room, but it's popularity makes it a magnet for some bad players which is why I put Taj ahead of it in terms of professionalism of the dealers, floor, AND players. Weird.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The dealer fliped over the river, and THEN seat 9 speaks up.

Apparently, he had his hands over his cards to the point where the dealer didn't see them.

The river gave me my straight, but it was shuffled back in.

IMO, this is the correct ruling. Robert's Rules of Poker states:

Quote: Section 3, subsection Irregularities

15. If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will not play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.

Quote: Section 5, subsection Rules

5. If the dealer burns and turns before a betting round is complete, the card(s) may not be used, even if all subsequent players elect to fold. Nobody has an option of accepting or rejecting the card. The betting is then completed, and the error rectified in the prescribed manner for that situation.

8. A dealing error for the fourth boardcard is rectified in a manner to least influence the identity of the boardcards that would have been used without the error. The dealer burns and deals what would have been the fifth card in the fourth card’s place. After this round of betting, the dealer reshuffles the deck, including the card that was taken out of play, but not including the burncards or discards. The dealer then cuts the deck and deals the final card without burning a card. If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner.

So as it happened, the ruling was correct: KITN for seat 9, river shuffled back in and redealt.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

The dealer fliped over the river, and THEN seat 9 speaks up.

Apparently, he had his hands over his cards to the point where the dealer didn't see them.

I would argue that he wasn't protecting his hand. The rule isn't "protect your cards;" the rule is "protect your hand," the hand being more than just the cards you were dealt. The whole point is to make the dealer and other players in the hand aware that you have cards and you're an active player in that hand. You also can't assume that the dealer just knows this. Dealers are human and can make mistakes.

If you're covering your cards so that noone can see them, you might be doing a great job of making sure the dealer doesn't snatch your cards away, but you're doing a pretty terrible job of protecting your stake in that hand (never mind the appearance of impropriety that comes from hiding your cards). If you're spacing out, allowing the dealer to muck your live cards or skip your action, you're doing a pretty terrible job of protecting your hand. He was guilty of both.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I also realize that I should have asked if he folded. But the dealer was looking at me, waiting for me to act. Doesn't that indicate that it is my turn? In that case shouldn't seat 9 have said something at that point?

Yes, you should have asked. No, just because the dealer's looking at you doesn't mean it's your turn; it means that the dealer thinks it's your turn. Yes, seat 9 should have said something, but it seems he was too busy spacing out to notice that action skipped him. If you're not sure, it only takes a couple seconds to ask, and clears up any problems.

I've read Robert's Rules. I have a copy on my computer, and on my office computer. I knew that in the event of a dealer mistake, the card gets reshuffled, etc.


But as you point out:

Quote: wildqat

If you're covering your cards so that noone can see them, you might be doing a great job of making sure the dealer doesn't snatch your cards away, but you're doing a pretty terrible job of protecting your stake in that hand (never mind the appearance of impropriety that comes from hiding your cards). If you're spacing out, allowing the dealer to muck your live cards or skip your action, you're doing a pretty terrible job of protecting your hand. He was guilty of both.

It was for those reasons that I questioned if this was really a dealer mistake. I wanted it to be a player mistake and his hand declared dead - so that the card I needed doesn't get reshuffled. (Yeah, if it was a different card, I wouldn't have complained...)

if youre unsure if someones still in the hand or unsure about anything, dont be afraid to ask the dealer.

as for protecting your own hand, assuming youre righthanded, keep your left hand on your cards at all times in plain sight for everyone to see while you use your righthand for cutting chips out for bets. this is a good habit to get into to avoid any future frustration such as your hand mistakenly getting mucked.

Quote: rudeboyoi

if youre unsure if someones still in the hand or unsure about anything, dont be afraid to ask the dealer.

At the time, I felt that I didn't need to ask the dealer, because the dealer was already looking at me, waiting for me to act. Surely, it was a lesson learned, but I still want to know, just in case it happens again.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

But as you point out:It was for those reasons that I questioned if this was really a dealer mistake. I wanted it to be a player mistake and his hand declared dead - so that the card I needed doesn't get reshuffled. (Yeah, if it was a different card, I wouldn't have complained...)

It looks to me that it doesn't really matter who's responsible for the mistake. All that's provided is a mechanism to recover from a mistake.

Near as I can tell, about the only way that seat 9's hand gets killed in this case is if there's significant action on the river card before he speaks up. A bet might count, a bet and call definitely counts. Otherwise, he has his cards (even though he's hiding them), so he's still entitled to act on them.

If you want a more definitive answer, you can try asking in the B&M forum at 2+2. They're assholes, but they're assholes who, by and large, know their stuff, and you'll probably get an entertaining flamewar debate out of it, too. :^)

(BTW, check out RRoP Section 2, Decision-Making, number 9.)

Quote: wildqat

Near as I can tell, about the only way that seat 9's hand gets killed in this case is if there's significant action on the river card before he speaks up.

I don't think it needs action 'on the river'. I think it needs action after he was to have acted.

I do think there is 'sufficient' action to alert him that he was skipped. I.E. The player before him bet, then the following happened when it should have been his turn: I called, the dealer scooped the chips, the dealer burned a card, the dealer flipped the river. If it was me, I would have spoke up by the time the dealer scooped the chips.

Quote: wildqat

If you want a more definitive answer, you can try asking in the B&M forum at 2+2.

What's that? Never heard of it.

Quote: wildqat

(BTW, check out RRoP Section 2, Decision-Making, number 9.)

Quote: Robert's Rules of Poker, Section 2, Number 9

A player, before he acts, is entitled to request and receive information as to whether any opposing hand is alive or dead, or whether a wager is of sufficient size to reopen the betting.

Yeah, I know I can ask. I didn't think I needed to.

If the player has repeadtedly put cards where they don't belong. For example, behind stacks of chips or on the white marble at MGM(Your cards go on the felt) then we have a scenario where its possible its his on fault.