Did I make a good fold?

I originally put this on my own website:
I'm playing in a $200 buy-in cash game tonight. I had a good run up to this point and built up a stack of about $545. I am in the big blind with KcQc which are decent cards but nothing to get overly excited about pre flop. All 9 seats are filled, players are generally conservative. I was always playing solid hands.

There was one player who was two places before the button who called the big blind for $5 and the small blind added $2 to call.

The flop was K, 8, 3 rainbow with NO clubs.

The small blind checked.
I bet $15.
The other player raised to $50.
The action came back to the small blind who went all-in for $110.

I folded and here's why:

1. Someone might have had AK.
2. Someone might have had a two pair.
3. Someone might have had a set.

After I folded the player in middle position folded and the small blind took the pot.

If the small blind hit two pair or was bluffing, perhaps if I had raised pre-flop I would have prompted the small blind to fold -- and then again, maybe not.

But the player in middle position might not have folded to a pre-flop raise.

At this point, I didn't want to jeopardize the big stack I had built up, and shortly after this pot I left with a $300 profit intact.

But the question remains, did I make a good or bad fold? Don't hold back anything, please.

I think you made a good fold. There are a lot hands that beat you. If everyone is conservative like you say than it seems like the guy who went all in already had a made hand as there is not much of a draw possible.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I originally put this on my own website: I'm playing in a $200 buy-in cash game tonight. I had a good run up to this point and built up a stack of about $545.

Live or online? I presume live, since online NL500 is a fairly tough environment, live NL500 is fishy, and 3/5 sounds like a live game.
Why only $200?

Quote: AlanMendelson

I am in the big blind with KcQc which are decent cards but nothing to get overly excited about pre flop.
There was one player who was two places before the button who called the big blind for $5 and the small blind added $2 to call.
The flop was K, 8, 3 rainbow with NO clubs.
The small blind checked.
I bet $15.
The other player raised to $50.
The action came back to the small blind who went all-in for $110.

You have a small hand, top pair good kicker, with little chance of improving.

You weren't the only one with a king. That much is almost certain. Pot of $14, you put in a strong bet of $15, someone overbets it with $50. If it's a bluff, it's a risky one, you need 2/3 fold-around percentage minimum to profit.
It's too obvious for a monster, so he doesn't want more streets. I'd not figure a pure bluff, but you're BB, you could be just defending. My first guess would be a strong king (KQ, KJs, maybe AKo) with a thin value raise to chase you out. But it could be two pair or a bottom set, 33 was too weak to raise, doesn't want his hand cracked.
You could still play at that point, but folding was a reasonable choice already.

Then with a $110 check-3-bet completely out of position, with tight players, there's little chance that you aren't beaten, unless two players decided to go crazy on the same hand. SB can have anything, minimum would be two pair.

If not fold, what were you going to do with your hand? The other player might call you if he has anything, it's $60 to win $270. Raising an all-in is usually a mistake, but he might just do it. At best you are hoping to check it down and win at showdown. With TPGK in a 3-way pot. Or you could go all-in - again, bad move, and on TPGK?

I can see this sort of play without strong value behind it flying in a tourney. In a solid cash game, I wouldn't even go as far as to call it a good fold, rather an obvious fold.

I was playing at Hollywood Park Casino, near LA in Inglewood. It was a $200 table. Blinds were $5 and $3. No limit hold'em.

thank you for the information and comments.

you underrepped your hand pf and put yourself in a precarious spot on the flop because both players might be overvaluing their hand. next time raise pf.

If the players were good, my guess is you've just seen 33 raise you and fold to 88 (the reverse wouldn't happen, 88 would figure out the only other possible set is 33).

Neither K3 nor K8 are remotely playable in shortstack, raising with A8 would be overly loose, AK is an even stronger preflop raise (stacks too short to worry about draws). A less probable possibility is A8 folding to 33 or better.

Anyway, your main concern should be not "What do they have", but "What can I do if I stay in the hand". In this case, action to the right had paralyzed you, that alone calls for folding.


Re: Underrepping your hand - KQs is a good short stack hand, it's very transparent, but draws just aren't as scary as in deep stack play. Preflop raise might have prompted 33 or A8 to fold. Then you'd just have one to opponent to deal with. Would near certainly have lost more money on that particular hand, but overall it's good value.

no hand is a fold pf from the sb in a 3/5 blind structure vs a limp and a random hand yet to act in the bb especially if the bb is overally passive pf which appears to be the case.

I admit that at that stage I was more concerned with protecting my stack and my $300+ profit than winning another pot. If I didn't have a big stack to protect I would have raised pre flop -- not by much, maybe I would have made it $15.

You bet, and get a raise and re-raise? Fold. No question.

Should you have raised pre-flop? Perhaps. But then you'd be in the same spot - only with more money in the pot. Maybe one player would have folded pre-flop, but then where would you be? The other player would have raised, leaving you with a decision. Having two players behind you, both of whom raised, makes it very easy to get away from that hand cheaply.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Should you have raised pre-flop? Perhaps. But then you'd be in the same spot - only with more money in the pot.

terrible way to look at poker. this is like playing bonus deuces wild video poker and getting dealt 9944X and saying you shouldve kept 99 because you proceeded to draw a 9 instead of making the stronger play keeping 44 since it pays more if you hit 5oak.

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Quote: rudeboyoi

no hand is a fold pf from the sb in a 3/5 blind structure vs a limp and a random hand yet to act in the bb especially if the bb is overally passive pf which appears to be the case.

You do have a point in general. This time it would however cost money.

33 or 88 isn't "no hand" - both are good calling hands, with very short stacks 88 can be shoved into a dry flop, with longer stacks they are prime bluffcatchers and OK semi-bluffs. And having the third player in this case worked in BB's favor, making it obvious that SB means business and taking the hit for $50. Otherwise OP would keep calling or raising, no doubt putting the whole $110 into the pot by the river.

As to whether one should raise with KQs on a tight short-stack table from the BB? Sometimes. Remember that SB has already completed the blind though. Calling with KQs is a mistake, but BB play is different. The preflop raiser is expected to bet, you'll have the worst position, and potential draws are concealed.

" All 9 seats are filled, players are generally conservative. "

Time to ask for a table change. SERIOUSLY.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I originally put this on my own website:
I'm playing in a $200 buy-in cash game tonight. I had a good run up to this point and built up a stack of about $545. I am in the big blind with KcQc which are decent cards but nothing to get overly excited about pre flop. All 9 seats are filled, players are generally conservative. I was always playing solid hands.

There was one player who was two places before the button who called the big blind for $5 and the small blind added $2 to call.

The flop was K, 8, 3 rainbow with NO clubs.

The small blind checked.
I bet $15.
The other player raised to $50.
The action came back to the small blind who went all-in for $110.

I folded and here's why:

1. Someone might have had AK.
2. Someone might have had a two pair.
3. Someone might have had a set.

I think you were playing against a set or a stone cold bluff. But based on the way you described the table I'd go with a set. If you'd been playing solid hands he thought either you or the player in the midle position might stick around for a big pot. Good fold!

My guess would be a pair of 3's or a K,8. Good fold. Perhaps more aggressive betting as the BB would have chased the SB out. If the SB had folded, what would you have done with the $35 raise?

Pretty easy fold IMHO. You could easily be beat in both spots. Your post flop lead did what it was supposed to do, got the others to tell you that you are behind.

It was a good fold, although with KQs, I'd probably have raised pre-flop. There's a good chance they were both bluffing, but without knowing the players, I'd say not enough to look them up with top pair and no draws.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The flop was K, 8, 3 rainbow with NO clubs.

The small blind checked.
I bet $15.
The other player raised to $50.
The action came back to the small blind who went all-in for $110.

I folded and here's why:

1. Someone might have had AK.
2. Someone might have had a two pair.
3. Someone might have had a set.

But the question remains, did I make a good or bad fold? Don't hold back anything, please.

I think it was a good fold.

It seems like a pretty clear slow play on the part of the small blind in this situation, I think he was holding a monster and he was hoping to get someone committed to the pot prior to making his move. The raise by the player after you does not particularly alarm me (if the small blind folds) because you have to admit that the $15 raise on your part is a pretty tentative raise. My impression is that he wasn't counting on the small blind to be holding a good hand, and he was just hoping the $50 would cause the table to fold.

If the small blind would have folded, I would have pushed the guy after you all-in in a heartbeat, because my guess is he was semi-bluffing with a King and low kicker, or maybe with a pair of eights. His impression was probably that you were just trying to buy a pot...cheaply...so he tried to buy the pot less cheaply. I'm going to guess (please let me know if I am right) that the guy after you folded to the small blind without hesitation. I don't even put the player after you on so much as a pair of Kings, to be honest, because the guy after you folded when he would have been calling only for the amount of money he already had in the pot.

The small blind simply set a terrific double up trap which you were smart enough to avoid. Great lay-down.

good fold. Your analysis is convincing enough for me. Pocket Aces is also possible, and would be on any short-list. Since you bet, the all-in looks convincing enough that 1-2-3 is likely. So I'll add "Someone might have AA". Nothing worse than holding top pair on a board that pairs... so jump the pot now.

When the small blind went all in I was actually dumbfounded. He had been playing poorly all night and I didn't know if he was bluffing but as I pondered what he did I started to get realistic about the situation. He easily could have had two pair because of no raise pre flop. How many times have we seen that happen?

I must have sat there for thirty seconds looking at my cards, looking at the board, and I even mumbled "did you hit a set, two pair?" and then I mumbled, "I can't believe Im folding."

Well, I could believe I was folding not only because I didn't want to give up so much of my stack if I was beat, but also because I realized either of those players could easily have me beat.

Next player also was amazed and had a stunned look on his face. And it took him about thirty seconds to fold and for him to call would only have been about $60.

Here's the way I look at it now: the SB was due to have a winning hand. He got it and I lost $20. Good for him.

Yeah -20 versus -110. My way of thinking out the problem is that really, only a K or Q on the turn-river is beneficial to you, and thats presuming AA pocket, basically your racing, or losing a small pot of 20.

Some how I mis-read the post and had to edit this; sorry for that.
You came out after check 15, and other raised to 50 followed by check-raise-all-in.
You have top board pair 15 is OK
The raise to 50 is either AA or Crab-set or semi-bluff A3/A8
All-in after check smacks of a set or K8/K3

I can no longer state that the ALL IN bespoke poor play after re-reading the thread. Nope, the guy went +65 with a good hand, and did it the way you should do it, by extracting 65 with 110 in hand.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Next player also was amazed and had a stunned look on his face. And it took him about thirty seconds to fold and for him to call would only have been about $60.

Here's the way I look at it now: the SB was due to have a winning hand. He got it and I lost $20. Good for him.

Good for you, also, for not losing another $90.

I'm surprised it took the guy after you so long to fold. You'd only fold if you thought you were dead in the water, at that point. If he folds, he has a 100% chance of losing $55, so can you imagine not calling it for another $60?

I just don't think he could have had that much, darn surprised if he even had a King, to be honest.

I distinctly remember the "look" on the face of the player who raised to $50. At first it looked like he was going to grab chips to call the all-in, but he was also looking at my reaction. And when I looked "dazed" and "dumbfounded" and started to mumble about a "set" I could see his look change and his hands move away from his chips and a confused look come over his face too.

Im going to guess he also had a king, and perhaps Ace-King. Since the table was playing tight I can understand that he didn't raise pre flop. Also he had suffered some losses earlier playing AK and I don't think he wanted to get a beat like that again.

There were a lot of "dynamics" in that hand. I really wish I could have been inside of the other guys' minds.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I originally put this on my own website:
I'm playing in a $200 buy-in cash game tonight. I had a good run up to this point and built up a stack of about $545. I am in the big blind with KcQc which are decent cards but nothing to get overly excited about pre flop. All 9 seats are filled, players are generally conservative. I was always playing solid hands.

There was one player who was two places before the button who called the big blind for $5 and the small blind added $2 to call.

The flop was K, 8, 3 rainbow with NO clubs.

The small blind checked.
I bet $15.
The other player raised to $50.
The action came back to the small blind who went all-in for $110.

I folded and here's why:

1. Someone might have had AK.
2. Someone might have had a two pair.
3. Someone might have had a set.

After I folded the player in middle position folded and the small blind took the pot.

If the small blind hit two pair or was bluffing, perhaps if I had raised pre-flop I would have prompted the small blind to fold -- and then again, maybe not.

But the player in middle position might not have folded to a pre-flop raise.

At this point, I didn't want to jeopardize the big stack I had built up, and shortly after this pot I left with a $300 profit intact.

But the question remains, did I make a good or bad fold? Don't hold back anything, please.

Lots of important info missing here:
How much more does the $50 raiser have left?
You say "All 9 seats are filled, players are generally conservative", is this guy loose preflop?
Based on his play you need to wait the probability that he has two pair, AK or a set vs a worse hand then you.
Would he raise with AK preflop?
Does he tend to slow play big hands?
Does he raise for information?
I would call here and re-evaluate the turn.

I think his most likely hand is KX, on a dry board like this people tend to slowplay sets and there are not any likely 2 pair hands if people are playing conservative like you say.

Also,
"Here's the way I look at it now: the SB was due to have a winning hand. He got it and I lost $20. Good for him."
This logic is incorrect, often times people will shove there chips in a spot like this with a mediocre holding assuming that you 2 might fold but if you guys all he gets goo odds on his money. I would be more likely to think the SB has a K with a bad kicker of something like A8.

Think of it like this. You are in the SB with 33 and the flop comes K83 rainbow, you check, the BB bets $15 an the next player raises to $50, would you raise here? I wouldn't.
You should be thinking at this point how to get the other 2 players to call your last $60 you have left, raising to $110 will get you to fold a mediocre hand and possibly the raiser to fold as well. The SB play looks more like a gamble and or trying to push you guys out of the pot then a made hand.