Roulette Side Bet Idea

Working Name: Coupon Collection Bet.

I combined this idea from the all numbers bet in Craps with Keno. The player fills out a card marking all of the numbers that he thinks will appear before one or more bogey numbers appear. The card would have 0, 00, 1 - 36 on top in black and the same in red on the bottom. The player can pick any quantity of numbers on the top and bottom. Player can not choose the same number in black and red boxes. All black numbers must appear before any one of the red numbers for the bet to win. Payout is based on the quantity of numbers bet.

Has potential? Discuss!

A busy roulette table is fairly slow already. there can be a fair amount of math involved for the dealer.
The table environment is often somewhat chaotic.
I doubt that the casinos would be intrested in adding another level of complexity to the game.
Just my opinion of course...

I think this could be easily incorporated into Shufflemaster's rapid roulette.

Well that's a different story.
It would be a lot easier on a machine of course.

Quote: WongBo

Well that's a different story.
It would be a lot easier on a machine of course.

I agree but I think, like the keno runners do now, the bettor would be given a ticket after the bet is entered because a bet could take hours to resolve.

Too complicated, especially in terms of having to figure out the payout. You would also have to slow the game down to allow for winners to be checked after each spin.

What's next - add a layout with the non-green numbers broken up into 12 blocks of 3 (i.e. three adjacent numbers on the wheel itself), and assign each block an astrological sign (for example, 28, 9 and 26 are "Aries")? (Actually, replace the "western" Zodiac with the Chinese one, and this existed for a time in Australia.)

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Too complicated, especially in terms of having to figure out the payout.

I don't think it would be that tough and the good news on that front is that you only have to do it once for each combination. Limit it to two to six numbers in the black and one to three numbers in the red giving only eighteen fifteen possible ways to play it.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

You would also have to slow the game down to allow for winners to be checked after each spin.

What if you were issued a ticket that you could check anytime like in Keno or the sports book?

Quote: ThatDonGuy

...12 blocks of 3 (i.e. three adjacent numbers on the wheel itself)...

If you ever go to Dublin there is a wheel just like that, although you can't make the associated bets - it's just a pretty centre picture.

However at the Empire London there IS a wheel with six colours and the layout has six places (alongside the even money bets) where you can bet. The layout uses the six colours, however when I was there, everybody was sticking to the normal bets.

As an aside there was a similar idea called Gorleston roulette (predictably in Gorleston near Great Yarmouth), which was declared illegal as it wasn't part of the list of permitted bets.

You should really be asking our Expert Roulette Methodologist, mrjjj, Ken.

(oh that's right! He's on a one week hiatus)

If installed on an electronic system, be it Rapid Roulette or a Roulette type slot or something else, will only alleviate the complex task of determining if there is a winner and payout. There is still the time consuming and complex step of placing the bet.

The casino is not going to welcome a betting option that slows the game down. How do you envision this bet being placed quickly?

Ignoring my concerns, have you done any of the math?

Quote: charliepatrick

. . . at the Empire London there IS a wheel with six colours and the layout has six places (alongside the even money bets) where you can bet. The layout uses the six colours, however when I was there, everybody was sticking to the normal bets.

Are you talking about Diamond Roulette? I saw one at the Taj Mahal, and wrote about it in my A.C. trip report. Here's the pertinent excerpt:

Quote:

On the way to the poker room, I see Diamond Roulette. It's been discussed here before, and there is a page on it at WoO. One thing I noticed which I don't think has been mentioned is that the six colors are LUMPED TOGETHER on the wheel. That makes it very easy to place bets for any of those 6 wheel sectors, if you think there is a bias.
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Another odd thing is that one of the six colors is green - but NOT the same shade as the green zeroes. Really? They didn't think of using a different color?

Click on either photo for a high-res version.

I came up with such a bet, filed a provisional patent on it with Howard & Howard, - and showed it to a distributor. I used zero/00 as the out number as the preferred embodiment, but covered it.
I was told that:
1. the idea lacked merit,
2. was too hard to impliment, and
3. that it was not as good other Roulette side bets, such as Poker for Roulette.
I let the patent lapse on it into the public domain a couple of years ago.
Zero interest. I signed other games.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Ignoring my concerns, have you done any of the math?

Yes, it's pretty straight forward. I don't see any way for a casino to make money on this bet.

Pick two good numbers to appear before the one bad one and it works out to 2 to 1 odds resolving in about 25 spins
Pick three good numbers to appear before the one bad one and it works out to 3 to 1 odds resolving in about 28 spins
Pick four good numbers to appear before the one bad one and it works out to 4 to 1 odds resolving in about 30 spins
Pick four good numbers to appear before two bad ones and it works out to 14 to 1 odds resolving in about 18 spins

I may rework this so that you get the 0 and 00 as the bad numbers automagically and you get to pick the group of good numbers. That would make more sense because the greens traditionally belong in the casinos pocket.

Quote: Paigowdan

I used zero/00 as the out number as the preferred embodiment, but covered it.

I swear i didn't see your post before I answered above :)

I think with Rapid Roulette, it's doable! I wouldn't slow the game down because they spin the ball whether you're ready or not.

Quote: ten2win

You should really be asking our Expert Roulette Methodologist, mrjjj, Ken.

(oh that's right! He's on a one week hiatus)

I really didn't think his input would be constructive.

Quote: s2dbaker

I think with Rapid Roulette, it's doable! I wouldn't slow the game down because they spin the ball whether you're ready or not.

You don't think that pisses off the gamblers?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Are you talking about Diamond Roulette? I saw one at the Taj Mahal, and wrote about it in my A.C. trip report. Here's the pertinent excerpt:

Quote:

On the way to the poker room, I see Diamond Roulette. It's been discussed here before, and there is a page on it at WoO. One thing I noticed which I don't think has been mentioned is that the six colors are LUMPED TOGETHER on the wheel. That makes it very easy to place bets for any of those 6 wheel sectors, if you think there is a bias.
Admin note: removed link to www.djteddybear.com/ac/full/IMG_0693.jpgAdmin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/ac/thumbs/IMG_0693.jpg Admin note: removed link to www.djteddybear.com/ac/full/IMG_0692.jpgAdmin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/ac/thumbs/IMG_0692.jpg
Another odd thing is that one of the six colors is green - but NOT the same shade as the green zeroes. Really? They didn't think of using a different color?

Click on either photo for a high-res version.

In UK they Call it: Rainbow Ride Roulette

Quote: s2dbaker

I swear i didn't see your post before I answered above :)

I think with Rapid Roulette, it's doable! I wouldn't slow the game down because they spin the ball whether you're ready or not.

On an automated game, a "rebet same" feature is key, a snap.

Rapid Roulette seems to be dying out in Vegas. Go to Shuffle Master and tell them of your sidebet that will require significant development time, QA time, resubmission to GLI, and an increased licensing fee or decreased profit to compensate for your share. ;)

Quote: s2dbaker

Working Name: Coupon Collection Bet.

I combined this idea from the all numbers bet in Craps with Keno. The player fills out a card marking all of the numbers that he thinks will appear before one or more bogey numbers appear. The card would have 0, 00, 1 - 36 on top in black and the same in red on the bottom. The player can pick any quantity of numbers on the top and bottom. Player can not choose the same number in black and red boxes. All black numbers must appear before any one of the red numbers for the bet to win. Payout is based on the quantity of numbers bet.

Has potential? Discuss!

First, Your working name does not fit the bet idea you have proposed.

The coupon collector's problem is about collecting at least one of every coupon out of a total number of coupons or in other words the wait time to see a complete set.
You have turned a set against another set, or one event against another kind of like a craps bet a 6 and an 8 before a 7.

A better idea for Roulette would be a bet based on the wait time to see a complete set of equal bets like the 3 sections at least one time.
How many spins does it take to see all 3 sections hit at least one time including the zeros? (heavy math, simulation results needed?)

How many spins does it take to see all 3 sections hit at least one time when NOT including the zeros? This is an easier math question.

Example:
Lets say, NOT counting the zeros as a spin, (3 items in the set)
Which bet would you take?
1) an even money bet that all 3 sections will hit at least one time in 4 spins. (0.4444444444)
2) an even money bet that all 3 sections will hit at least one time in 5 spins. (0.6172839506)
Simple thinking would be to choose #2 even if you did not know the math

Would a casino even offer an even money bet that all 3 sections will hit at least one time in 4 spins?
Would a casino even offer an even money bet that all 3 sections will hit at least one time in 5 spins?
I think they would if the casino would include the zeros in the wait time calculations.

This makes for some interesting math and simulations

The ideas for a complete set can be many.
A bet based on: (and the bets would not have to all be an even money payoff)
How many spins until all 12 streets appear at least one time.
How many spins until all 6 even money bets and all 6 sections and columns appear at least one time.

MS, after running a few scenarios through a simulator, what you said became clearer. I've given up on this as difficult to do and not feasible for the casino.

Quote: s2dbaker

MS, after running a few scenarios through a simulator, what you said became clearer. I've given up on this as difficult to do and not feasible for the casino.

Feasible has to do with expected duration. The problem with your original structure is that it might take 5+ minutes to resolve each bet. Roulette is slow anyway, so try to make something that will keep the player's attention.

The approach I took was to have a bet that resolves in as little as two spins, but the longer it goes, the more the player wins. As an example:
Make a bet on how many spins in a row will have increasing numbers. If the 2nd number is less than the first, the bet loses. But if the numbers start out, say, 3, 14, 16, then the players start getting excited because they can win even more if the next spin is >16, etc. You still have the tracking issues, but this way it's not a binary decision -- the longer the bet rides, the more the players win.

Quote: MathExtremist

The approach I took was to have a bet that resolves in as little as two spins, but the longer it goes, the more the player wins. As an example:
Make a bet on how many spins in a row will have increasing numbers. If the 2nd number is less than the first, the bet loses. But if the numbers start out, say, 3, 14, 16, then the players start getting excited because they can win even more if the next spin is >16, etc. You still have the tracking issues, but this way it's not a binary decision -- the longer the bet rides, the more the players win.

MathExtremist,
I believe you have a game like that: uppercut roulette?

Quote: MrCasinoGames

MathExtremist,
I believe you have a game like that: uppercut roulette?

I was just at ME's site.
It is a fun side bet.
Roulette UP!
How about a Bad Beat for the Roulette UP!
I was set for a BIG WIN with 2, 3 and 8... but a 1... ouch !

Quote: mustangsally

How about a Bad Beat for the Roulette UP!
I was set for a BIG WIN with 2, 3 and 8... but a 1... ouch !

I hear you, but basically every loss other than losing right away feels like a bad beat. What if it had been a 7 -- would that have felt better or worse? How about 0?

Maybe I could do something that involves losing if the point is 9 or lower, etc. There are two options: make it part of the original wager, which (problematically) would lower the rest of the pays, or pay for it separately. But then you're talking about a side bet on a side bet...

Quote: MrCasinoGames

MathExtremist,
I believe you have a game like that: uppercut roulette?

Yes, that's what I was referring to. I renamed it "UP!" because I got feedback that the word "Uppercut" was too violent for some. mustangsally posted the link.

If anyone in charge of a gaming floor is actually interested in looking at roulette side bets (is anyone?), this is ready to go: NGCB and MGC approved. PM me for details.

Quote: MathExtremist

There are two options: make it part of the original wager, which (problematically) would lower the rest of the pays, or pay for it separately. But then you're talking about a side bet on a side bet...

My earlier bet sequence, point 10, 25 and 15...I did not feel that bad. It is easy to see how many chances there are to keep winning with each winning spin.
For the game designer, that's you, making a bet exciting has to be one of many considerations.

I played it and liked it.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Are you talking about Diamond Roulette? I saw one at the Taj Mahal, and wrote about it in my A.C. trip report. Here's the pertinent excerpt:

Quote:

On the way to the poker room, I see Diamond Roulette. It's been discussed here before, and there is a page on it at WoO. One thing I noticed which I don't think has been mentioned is that the six colors are LUMPED TOGETHER on the wheel. That makes it very easy to place bets for any of those 6 wheel sectors, if you think there is a bias.
Admin note: removed link to www.djteddybear.com/ac/full/IMG_0693.jpgAdmin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/ac/thumbs/IMG_0693.jpg Admin note: removed link to www.djteddybear.com/ac/full/IMG_0692.jpgAdmin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/ac/thumbs/IMG_0692.jpg
Another odd thing is that one of the six colors is green - but NOT the same shade as the green zeroes. Really? They didn't think of using a different color?

Click on either photo for a high-res version.

Guys,

Is this six colour jobby patented? If so, anyone know where I can find the patent?

Have been searching without success.