Commission-Free Pai Gow Poker Story and Question
August 4th, 2011 at 4:14:24 PM
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The other day I was playing commission-free pai gow poker at a Washington State casino. If you play at least $5 on the fortune bonus, you don't pay any commission on a win. $5 is also the minimum for envy bonuses. They also have a $1 progressive bet which was at about $265,000 for the seven-card natural straight flush.
So a gentleman approaches the table, buys in for $25, plays $20 + $1 on the progressive + $4 on the fortune. I was going to say something to him, but alas the cards were dealt. You guessed it, a third player hit a royal flush, so it was $50 envy for me and those that bet $5 on the fortune, but nothing for the new player. Also, he wins the hand and gets paid $19 instead of $20.
So my question is, how what was the marginal house-edge of him betting an extra $1 on the fortune so he could win envy bonuses and no pay commission on wins? Would he have been better playing $19+$1+$5?
So a gentleman approaches the table, buys in for $25, plays $20 + $1 on the progressive + $4 on the fortune. I was going to say something to him, but alas the cards were dealt. You guessed it, a third player hit a royal flush, so it was $50 envy for me and those that bet $5 on the fortune, but nothing for the new player. Also, he wins the hand and gets paid $19 instead of $20.
So my question is, how what was the marginal house-edge of him betting an extra $1 on the fortune so he could win envy bonuses and no pay commission on wins? Would he have been better playing $19+$1+$5?
August 4th, 2011 at 4:31:07 PM
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No. $20 on the main bet and $5 on the bonus, no progressive, unless the Jackpot is astronomical.
If you have to play the bonues to get commission-free action, play with the envy active, via the "betting spot" bonus bet. By getting envy, the bonus bet's HE goes down to under 4% from 7.5%, and playing at the max ratio bonus-to-main bet.With full betting ratio, there's about a 1% or so house edge off the bonus bet-main bet combo, plus the effect of two-card side copies. Then you'd be running about a 2% house edge all told.
One could also play EZ Pai Gow Poker, which is commission-free without ANY bonus bet catches or gimmicks. No commission at any time anywhere, though the dealer will push the main bet on exactly his queen-high Pai Gow, or once every 58 hands, very rarely. See EZ Pai Gow . Very Popular in San Diego Casinos, The Cannery Group in Las Vegas, Jackson Rancheria by Sacremento, etc.
I personally know the inventor: just a great guy, what a guy....
If you have to play the bonues to get commission-free action, play with the envy active, via the "betting spot" bonus bet. By getting envy, the bonus bet's HE goes down to under 4% from 7.5%, and playing at the max ratio bonus-to-main bet.With full betting ratio, there's about a 1% or so house edge off the bonus bet-main bet combo, plus the effect of two-card side copies. Then you'd be running about a 2% house edge all told.
One could also play EZ Pai Gow Poker, which is commission-free without ANY bonus bet catches or gimmicks. No commission at any time anywhere, though the dealer will push the main bet on exactly his queen-high Pai Gow, or once every 58 hands, very rarely. See EZ Pai Gow . Very Popular in San Diego Casinos, The Cannery Group in Las Vegas, Jackson Rancheria by Sacremento, etc.
I personally know the inventor: just a great guy, what a guy....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 4th, 2011 at 6:06:41 PM
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In case this tongue-in-cheek comment got past you, PaiGowDan is the inventor of EZ Pai Gow.Quote: PaigowdanI personally know the inventor: just a great guy, what a guy....
But he's right. He is a great guy...
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 4th, 2011 at 8:01:47 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanNo. $20 on the main bet and $5 on the bonus, no progressive, unless the Jackpot is astronomical.
I personally know the inventor: just a great guy, what a guy....
I think that progressive breaks even at about $283k, and has a 3.75% HE at $265k. So it's a closer decision than you give it credit for.
Also, we could have a whole conversation about your last comment. Can a person ever really know themself?
I don't know how to make this pretty, but here's my table on the progressive:
Prob Payout EV
7SF 0.00000127 265000 0.33655
5aces 0.00000732 26500 0.19398
RF 0.0001688 499 0.0842312
SF 0.00119787 99 0.11858913
4kind 0.00199472 74 0.14760928
FH 0.02717299 3 0.08151897
sum 0.96247858
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 5th, 2011 at 5:03:50 AM
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The progressive is a huge lure, though. Turns a game into double game: play a jackpot lottery while you play a table game.
I have been noticing that people are really backing off the progressives and fire bet at my casino, though. Progressives at 40K, unimpressive; You win the regular bonus with a 7-card straight flush, you win essentially just as big as far as a table session goes. One guy hit that hand a few months ago without the progressive, just a dollar on the bonus, still got 8K. You need $100,000+ on the meter to get mouths watering.
Interesting thing about the "commission-free side bet gimmick." In washington state, it is public domain, though the table game might be "Branded:" Fortune Pai Gow or Emporer's challenge. In Nevada, there is a specifically branded "Commission-free whenever side-betting:" Pai Gow Thrill. Play too little on the bonus, you pay the commission, at Boulder Station.
99.99% of Nevada's Pai Gow tables are either Full commission-based Fortune or Emperor's Challenge, or 100% commission-free EZ Pai Gow. I think there is one or two Pai Gow "Thrill" games where you switch modes between no commission and paying a commission based on your side bet amount. It's viewed as very clunky. EZ Pai Gow is a huge hit at The Cannery Group's casinos in Las Vegas.
I have been noticing that people are really backing off the progressives and fire bet at my casino, though. Progressives at 40K, unimpressive; You win the regular bonus with a 7-card straight flush, you win essentially just as big as far as a table session goes. One guy hit that hand a few months ago without the progressive, just a dollar on the bonus, still got 8K. You need $100,000+ on the meter to get mouths watering.
Interesting thing about the "commission-free side bet gimmick." In washington state, it is public domain, though the table game might be "Branded:" Fortune Pai Gow or Emporer's challenge. In Nevada, there is a specifically branded "Commission-free whenever side-betting:" Pai Gow Thrill. Play too little on the bonus, you pay the commission, at Boulder Station.
99.99% of Nevada's Pai Gow tables are either Full commission-based Fortune or Emperor's Challenge, or 100% commission-free EZ Pai Gow. I think there is one or two Pai Gow "Thrill" games where you switch modes between no commission and paying a commission based on your side bet amount. It's viewed as very clunky. EZ Pai Gow is a huge hit at The Cannery Group's casinos in Las Vegas.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 5th, 2011 at 5:10:11 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearIn case this tongue-in-cheek comment got past you, PaiGowDan is the inventor of EZ Pai Gow.
But he's right. He is a great guy...
Aw, shucks.... :)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
October 7th, 2011 at 10:10:50 AM
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I have a question regarding house edge in a game called "Fortune Pai Gow". All rules are identical to EZ Pai Gow, EXCEPT they did not implement the Queen high push rule. In other words, there is no commission on wins and no fees to play. You do not have to bet the Fortune Bonus. The joker is wild for all cards, not just ace, flush or straight. The only difference is if you choose to bank, you must pay a $1.00 fee per $100 wagered on the entire table. For example, if you bank and four players each bet $25, you will pay the house a $1.00 fee. Based on this, aren't the odds for the non-banking player drastically increased since there is no queen high push rule?
