aspiringmath
aspiringmath
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November 4th, 2021 at 11:19:06 AM permalink
Hello all,
I've been researching Class II Bingo for some time in the hopes of designing a game one day. In looking at existing games, I'm curious about VGT Live-Call® Bingo as seen in games such as Lucky Ducky,etc.

It seems to me that once two or more players are on the machines (Class II requires competition between players), play begins by drawing around 40 balls and any winning patterns are awarded. Then every ~2 seconds a new ball is drawn. While this is happening, you can keep pressing play on the machine and a new bingo card is drawn and compared against the already called numbers to determine if their is a win.

At least that's what I think is happening, I've never played them in person and don't have easy access to them :(.

I'm wondering how this variety of bingo satisfies the regulation of Class II gaming as described below (specifically part II):

According to 25 USCS § 2703 [Title 25. Indians, Chapter 29. Indian Gaming Regulation] the term, "class II gaming" means--

"(i) the game of chance commonly known as bingo (whether or not electronic, computer, or other technologic aids are used in connection therewith)--

(I) which is played for prizes, including monetary prizes, with cards bearing numbers or other designations,

(II) in which the holder of the card covers such numbers or designations when objects, similarly numbered or designated, are drawn or electronically determined, and

(III) in which the game is won by the first person covering a previously designated arrangement of numbers or designations on such cards, including (if played in the same location) pull-tabs, lotto, punch boards, tip jars, instant bingo, and other games similar to bingo, and...

It seems to me the language means that the card must be held before numbers are drawn, so how can you keep buying new cards in an existing Bingo game? Clearly the VGT games are in use, so I must be misunderstanding. Thanks for any help you can provide!
Dieter
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Dieter
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November 4th, 2021 at 12:48:54 PM permalink
If I see a VGT machine with the feature, I'll report back.

Otherwise, is there a video? I may be able to discern what is happening.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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Dieter
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November 4th, 2021 at 1:09:03 PM permalink
http://www.vgt.net/products/live-call-bingo/

According to the website, it would appear that this is a feature of their electronic bingo paper system, used in a modern variant of hall bingo. These are the tablets that replace traditional bingo paper and daubers.

It does NOT appear to be a "bingo slot" feature.

Compliant or not with the exact rules is out of my area, but I can believe that people can buy multiple packets, and probably buy more packets mid-session, and probably play those fresh packets on later games in the session.
May the cards fall in your favor.
aspiringmath
aspiringmath
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November 4th, 2021 at 1:17:53 PM permalink
Dieter, Thanks for the help.

I had links to the examples, but the forum would not allow me to post them since I was under the post count :(. If you search YouTube for Lucky Ducky, you'll see many examples of the games I'm referring to.

Quote: Dieter

/products/live-call-bingo/

According to the website, it would appear that this is a feature of their electronic bingo paper system, used in a modern variant of hall bingo. These are the tablets that replace traditional bingo paper and daubers.

It does NOT appear to be a "bingo slot" feature.

Compliant or not with the exact rules is out of my area, but I can believe that people can buy multiple packets, and probably buy more packets mid-session, and probably play those fresh packets on later games in the session.
link to original post



I thought so at first as well, but if you look here (can't post links yet, so do a web search for C6 Mechanical Reels) you'll see that they include the Live-Call Bingo system as part of the slots.
Dieter
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Dieter
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November 4th, 2021 at 2:44:35 PM permalink
Quote: aspiringmath


I thought so at first as well, but if you look here (can't post links yet, so do a web search for C6 Mechanical Reels) you'll see that they include the Live-Call Bingo system as part of the slots.
link to original post



OK, I'll try to get a look at a VGT C6.

I do know that many VGT slots change the card automatically at the start of a new game, which is a "feature" I don't like - I prefer to pick a card with my cat's wife's nephew's birthday on it and stick with it. That is one possible interpretation of their marketing blurb.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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November 5th, 2021 at 5:57:26 AM permalink
Quote: aspiringmath

It seems to me that once two or more players are on the machines (Class II requires competition between players), play begins by drawing around 40 balls and any winning patterns are awarded. Then every ~2 seconds a new ball is drawn. While this is happening, you can keep pressing play on the machine and a new bingo card is drawn and compared against the already called numbers to determine if their is a win.

At least that's what I think is happening, I've never played them in person and don't have easy access to them :(.
link to original post



I've had a chance to read a bit more, and now better understand your question.

No, new cards are not compared to previously drawn balls - at least, it is not apparently this way in any games I've observed.

A player presses the play button.
The credit meter is decremented by the game wager.
A new bingo card is assigned. (This varies by system; different manufacturers may use systems that allow old cards to be cleared and replayed. VGT, so far as I know, issues new cards randomly for each new drawing.)
The player is joined to the pool for the next game.
When a timer elapses, quorum is considered.
If quorum is not met, wagers are refunded to the credit meter, and the player is invited to join the next game with a cheery message like "Err4: Quorum not met".
If quorum is met, the game proceeds with a ball draw, card marking, "the entertainment portion of the game" (lights, sounds, animations), and prize awards.


If memory serves, VGT uses certain patterns being covered in a certain number of drawn balls to determine which prize to award.
May the cards fall in your favor.
DRich
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November 5th, 2021 at 7:29:57 AM permalink
If I am not mistaken, live draw Bingo generally falls under Class I gaming.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Dieter
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November 5th, 2021 at 7:55:01 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

If I am not mistaken, live draw Bingo generally falls under Class I gaming.
link to original post



I think that depends on if there is a buy-in fee, and if the prizes are notebooks with kitten pictures or cash.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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November 6th, 2021 at 12:41:05 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter


OK, I'll try to get a look at a VGT C6.
link to original post



I went someplace I remembered having this type of machine, but they had apparently been removed from the floor.
May the cards fall in your favor.
aspiringmath
aspiringmath
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November 9th, 2021 at 11:54:56 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: aspiringmath

It seems to me that once two or more players are on the machines (Class II requires competition between players), play begins by drawing around 40 balls and any winning patterns are awarded. Then every ~2 seconds a new ball is drawn. While this is happening, you can keep pressing play on the machine and a new bingo card is drawn and compared against the already called numbers to determine if their is a win.

At least that's what I think is happening, I've never played them in person and don't have easy access to them :(.
link to original post



I've had a chance to read a bit more, and now better understand your question.

No, new cards are not compared to previously drawn balls - at least, it is not apparently this way in any games I've observed.

A player presses the play button.
The credit meter is decremented by the game wager.
A new bingo card is assigned. (This varies by system; different manufacturers may use systems that allow old cards to be cleared and replayed. VGT, so far as I know, issues new cards randomly for each new drawing.)
The player is joined to the pool for the next game.
When a timer elapses, quorum is considered.
If quorum is not met, wagers are refunded to the credit meter, and the player is invited to join the next game with a cheery message like "Err4: Quorum not met".
If quorum is met, the game proceeds with a ball draw, card marking, "the entertainment portion of the game" (lights, sounds, animations), and prize awards.


If memory serves, VGT uses certain patterns being covered in a certain number of drawn balls to determine which prize to award.
link to original post



Thanks for the breakdown! Do you know if certain games have a fixed number of balls drawn each round? It seems VGT may continue drawing balls after an initial draw, but others, like Buffalo draw a fixed number of balls?
CrystalMath
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November 9th, 2021 at 12:22:41 PM permalink
There are machines that have a fixed number of balls.

The bingo game starts when 2 players join a game and it ends when someone hits the “game ending pattern” within those draws. This can take many many tries depending on how difficult the game ending pattern is.

I’ve seen games where the bingo cards are fixed and it takes thousands of ball draws to hit and also where there is a single ball draw and players get new bingo cards until one hits the pattern. Either one is acceptable, but the bingo cards must be unique and stored in a database (not generated randomly). The ball draw must be generated randomly.

I heard from BMM that there is at least 1 tribe that doesn’t accept this type of game, which they referred to as a “long ball” game.
I heart Crystal Math.
aspiringmath
aspiringmath
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November 9th, 2021 at 12:36:28 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

There are machines that have a fixed number of balls.

The bingo game starts when 2 players join a game and it ends when someone hits the “game ending pattern” within those draws. This can take many many tries depending on how difficult the game ending pattern is.

I’ve seen games where the bingo cards are fixed and it takes thousands of ball draws to hit and also where there is a single ball draw and players get new bingo cards until one hits the pattern. Either one is acceptable, but the bingo cards must be unique and stored in a database (not generated randomly). The ball draw must be generated randomly.

I heard from BMM that there is at least 1 tribe that doesn’t accept this type of game, which they referred to as a “long ball” game.
link to original post



Thanks! It's really hard to get information on these machines without being within a 1000 mile radius of them :P.

I'm sure of the answer, but just for clarification, when machines are "grouped" together to meet the quorum, they are all being played from the same drawn balls, correct?
CrystalMath
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November 9th, 2021 at 1:05:47 PM permalink
Quote: aspiringmath

Quote: CrystalMath

There are machines that have a fixed number of balls.

The bingo game starts when 2 players join a game and it ends when someone hits the “game ending pattern” within those draws. This can take many many tries depending on how difficult the game ending pattern is.

I’ve seen games where the bingo cards are fixed and it takes thousands of ball draws to hit and also where there is a single ball draw and players get new bingo cards until one hits the pattern. Either one is acceptable, but the bingo cards must be unique and stored in a database (not generated randomly). The ball draw must be generated randomly.

I heard from BMM that there is at least 1 tribe that doesn’t accept this type of game, which they referred to as a “long ball” game.
link to original post



Thanks! It's really hard to get information on these machines without being within a 1000 mile radius of them :P.

I'm sure of the answer, but just for clarification, when machines are "grouped" together to meet the quorum, they are all being played from the same drawn balls, correct?
link to original post



Yep. In my scenarios, that applies only to the first game. After that, machines could receive the same draw if they played at the same time, but there’s no requirement for a quorum again until the game ending pattern is hit.
I heart Crystal Math.
Dieter
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November 9th, 2021 at 5:42:16 PM permalink
Quote: CrystalMath

Quote: aspiringmath

Quote: CrystalMath

There are machines that have a fixed number of balls.

The bingo game starts when 2 players join a game and it ends when someone hits the “game ending pattern” within those draws. This can take many many tries depending on how difficult the game ending pattern is.

I’ve seen games where the bingo cards are fixed and it takes thousands of ball draws to hit and also where there is a single ball draw and players get new bingo cards until one hits the pattern. Either one is acceptable, but the bingo cards must be unique and stored in a database (not generated randomly). The ball draw must be generated randomly.

I heard from BMM that there is at least 1 tribe that doesn’t accept this type of game, which they referred to as a “long ball” game.
link to original post



Thanks! It's really hard to get information on these machines without being within a 1000 mile radius of them :P.

I'm sure of the answer, but just for clarification, when machines are "grouped" together to meet the quorum, they are all being played from the same drawn balls, correct?
link to original post



Yep. In my scenarios, that applies only to the first game. After that, machines could receive the same draw if they played at the same time, but there’s no requirement for a quorum again until the game ending pattern is hit.
link to original post



I think if consolation prizes are awarded, the game is considered concluded, and a new game must begin.

Consolation prizes are low; often everyone in the pool gets 3 cents.

Not saying CrystalMath is wrong, but I haven't noticed numbers being reissued on subsequent plays, and I do notice that sometimes a consolation prize is awarded, and sometimes a consolation prize is not awarded. It may be jurisdiction and system dependent.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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November 9th, 2021 at 5:56:22 PM permalink
Quote: aspiringmath


Thanks for the breakdown! Do you know if certain games have a fixed number of balls drawn each round? It seems VGT may continue drawing balls after an initial draw, but others, like Buffalo draw a fixed number of balls?
link to original post



Some do, some don't.

Cadillac Jack, IGT, SG, and VGT all seem to do their calculations quite differently. There are probably other manufacturers as well; more systems are probably out there.
May the cards fall in your favor.
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