Getting clobbered by Paul Magriel

Last Thursday I was honored to play about a dozen games of backgammon and have dinner with Paul Magriel. For those who aren't familiar with the name, he wrote what is considered the bible of backgammon. He also plays poker and chess at very high levels.

Before this, to my great surprise, I heard he is a regular player at a local Las Vegas poker room. I'm not sure I should say which one. A friend of mine told played poker with him often. I asked him if I could get an audience with him. Turns out Paul knew of me too and was anxious to meet me.

So we met up on Thursday and must have played about a dozen games of backgammon. I knew it wouldn't go well for me, so suggested $5 a game. Thankfully, Paul was not insulted at such low stakes and was kind enough to correct my many mistakes, after I made them. My backgammon game is very rusty and it was a very humbling experience. I don't even want to say what the financial result was, after the many doubles and gammons I was on the wrong side of.

We also enjoyed dinner and I found Paul a fascinating person to talk with yet very friendly and down to earth. Completely the opposite of many arrogant advantage players I know, who shall remain nameless.

Here are some photos.








I took a picture of this board to show that even that great Magriel is stumped from time to time. I was blue and to act with 4-3. The question is whether to hit that white piece or not? Note that I have the cube at 2.

Finally, I'd like to mention that Paul is available for backgammon and poker lessons. He may no longer be the best backgammon player in the world, but is considered the best teacher of the game.

That is really awesome to get that chance to play with him and pick his brain. I remember trying to read his book about 20 years ago and most of it was way over my head.

I have had the opportunity on a couple of occasions to play poker with him. Definitely a friendly guy.

In my very amateur opinion, if you hit him, you leave 4 unprotected in-range blots on the 1, 7, 9, very near your home field, and 1 on the other side. He has 1 in 3 chance on each die to come in, 1 in 6 each die to bar you from a home point, and has 5 of 6 come-in points blocked against you, about a 15% chance of double-barring you. The risk to you is very high.

However, as the pips stand, you have no better move; can't fix any exposed blots or better your home position; any other move exposes yet another home point or splits your two-point anyway. With no better defensive move, I think you have to hit him; 2/3 of his rolls will leave him on the bar.

Quote: beachbumbabs

In my very amateur opinion, if you hit him, you leave 4 unprotected in-range blots on the 1, 7, 9, very near your home field, and 1 on the other side. He has 1 in 3 chance on each die to come in, 1 in 6 each die to bar you from a home point, and has 5 of 6 come-in points blocked against you, about a 15% chance of double-barring you. The risk to you is very high.

However, as the pips stand, you have no better move; can't fix any exposed blots or better your home position; any other move exposes yet another home point or splits your two-point anyway. With no better defensive move, I think you have to hit him; 2/3 of his rolls will leave him on the bar.

I'd like to know the correct play here. I've been in to backgammon for a while, but still definitely consider myself an amateur. I would not hit him here. The risk is entirely too high that you find yourself in a pretty horrible situation, with nearly a full wall of primes.

I would move 7 to 3, and 4 to 1. This will keep 4 primes in his home, and force him to move potential attackers pass you next turn, plus give you another chance at a better roll to move pass him to take advantage of your 15 pip lead.

So what's the correct play?

I think this is the Paul Magriel that made a final table of a WPT event in it's early days that I watched on TV. His face seemed to keep involuntarily ticking. Then I had the pleasure of playing poker with him at the Horseshoe. No ticks to his face so I thought what I saw on TV was a move to throw his opponents off. He was a pretty nice guy.

One bit of advice he gave me (for limit holdem cash games) was if I mucked every hand under the gun without looking at the cards I would be money way ahead in the long run. I didn't fully take his advice, I'm still not gonna muck aces or kings, but I tightened the hell out of my under the gun play and it's saved me a lot of pain and misery.

That's very cool that you were both on each other's radar of people that you want to meet.

Okay, no financial disclosure. But was it worth it? Did you get your entertainment and educational value out of it?

That one tricky move is a real head-scratcher. What did you end up doing? How did that game work out?

Quote: beachbumbabs

In my very amateur opinion, ...

As I recall, Paul marginally favored not hitting, but he was clearly on the fence about it. If I figure out how to program my backgammon software, which Magriel just encouraged me to buy, I'll let you guys know the right answer.

BTW, based on our backgammon match, I'd say your skill in that game at least exceeds your handicapping skill, as evidenced by this year's contest.

Quote: mickeycrimm

I think this is the Paul Magriel that made a final table of a WPT event in it's early days that I watched on TV. His face seemed to keep involuntarily ticking.

It did with me too, a lot. I thought he might have Tourette Syndrome.

The correct play:

I just had a flashback about Paul Magriel's WPT final table appearance. It was the 2003 World Poker Challenge at what was then the Reno Hilton. I was there playing the cash games. It was the first season of WPT. They came in to the Hilton and set up a big tent on the casino floor, and put bleachers and TV screens in it, along with a poker table that the six finalists would play on.

So I went in and grabbed a seat to watch the final table. Before it started the producers or whatever made us all clap and cheer, then boo, and generally act like we were pulling for someone or against someone, all the while filming us. When the final table started Paul Magriel's back was to me.

Later, when I watched it on TV, when the camera was on Magriel, I could see myself in the bleachers.

Magriel is definitely a character in the TV poker scene. Quack, Quack!

Seems like a jovial guy, and it would be cool to sit down and play a game with.

I had dinner with Paul a few years ago as well. Back then we were discussing other games.

He's definitely unique.

Quote: Wizard

Completely the opposite of many arrogant advantage players I know, who shall remain nameless.

Well said! That should cover most if not all the APs here.

Quote: Wizard

As I recall, Paul marginally favored not hitting, but he was clearly on the fence about it. If I figure out how to program my backgammon software, which Magriel just encouraged me to buy, I'll let you guys know the right answer.

BTW, based on our backgammon match, I'd say your skill in that game at least exceeds your handicapping skill, as evidenced by this year's contest.

A dubious distinction, but I guess it's nice to be noticed from your lofty position atop the heap...lol. As I recall, the one time I played you in backgammon, it was moderately expensive as well. So I think you're underselling your skills a bit, though if PM is the acknowledged master, perhaps not. A nice encounter for you both, I would say.

It has probably been my longstanding weakness in playing backgammon that I am too willing to take the high-risk high-reward chance over the patient stalking of the othopponent.

Wizard and X-22, two of the best minds in gaming. Imagine the conversations that must have gone on.

I judge a man by his enemies. Paul is OK in my book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUF7UqftIzc

" I am too willing to take the high-risk high-reward chance over the patient stalking of the opponent. "

Well in divorce court, Babs darlin', I was definitely the stalkee !

Quote: Buzzard

I judge a man by his enemies. Paul is OK in my book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUF7UqftIzc

Yes, Paul just went up in my book and Phil went down. I loved the "off to the races" comment.

See, sometimes I do have a lucid interval. Phil is just getting camera time.

A bit off topic but inline with backgammon.(I never learned to play)

There used to be places online (Probably still is) you could play for real money.

I assume it rates you as you play and win, like chess.

I assume there's an advantage if you're good because you start with a low rating.

Not sure how you avoid people purposely dogging their rating waiting for a sucker or what the rules are concerning software programs like Snowie.

Has anyone tried online Backgammon for money?

Paul was also mentor and teacher to Leo Fernandez... The famous dice mechanic/slider that beat the Wynn.

Quote: AxelWolf

A bit off topic but inline with backgammon.(I never learned to play)

There used to be places online (Probably still is) you could play for real money.

I assume it rates you as you play and win, like chess.

I assume there's an advantage if you're good because you start with a low rating.

Not sure how you avoid people purposely dogging their rating waiting for a sucker or what the rules are concerning software programs like Snowie.

Has anyone tried online Backgammon for money?

I've never been in a backgammon club, but know that Bob Dancer used to play a lot at one in the Los Angeles area, before he got into video poker. I got the impression that it was like a pool hall, the club supplied the equipment and the players were left to negotiate their own bets. About this, I could be wrong.

I don't think backgammon online would ever work because most people would use a computer.

Quote: dwheatley

The correct play:
is to not hit. My program says 7/2 and 6/2 is best, with end of turn EV of 0.132. The 16/9 reduces your chance of winning by 3%, with an end of turn EV of -0.098. There are a number of other plays that are better than hitting, but they all involve moving pieces into the home board. Any play that splits the 16 without hitting is obviously a no go.
It wasn't asked, but the EV before the roll was 0.178 (and don't double), so the roll was a little unlucky for the Wizard. [/spoiler]

dwheatley, I think your answer contains a typo. 7/2 6/2 isn't possible with a roll of 4-3.

eXtreme Gammon says 6/2 4/1 is clearly best (+0.169)

Next up is 7/4 6/2 (+0.126)

And yes, hitting (16/9*) is clearly inferior. (-0.151.)

Magriel is one of my "heroes." I'm a big backgammon fan. I own a hardcover copy of his book, and 65 other backgammon books.

I've played with him in a few different poker rooms. I don't know which one is his regular room, but he seems to move around.

Nice enough guy, from what I can tell. He would be a great interview for Gambling With An Edge.

Quote: Wizard

I've never been in a backgammon club, but know that Bob Dancer used to play a lot at one in the Los Angeles area, before he got into video poker. I got the impression that it was like a pool hall, the club supplied the equipment and the players were left to negotiate their own bets. About this, I could be wrong.

I don't think backgammon online would ever work because most people would use a computer.

People online for money now but i didn't know how popular it is.
May the best program win.

There's a bar in town (won't mention the name publicly ) Where some of the better players go and play.

Over the past four days, I competed in a large backgammon tournament, held at the Flamingo. I was HOPING Magriel would be there, if not to compete than at least hanging around.

Alas, I didn't seem him.

Quote: EdCollins

Over the past four days, I competed in a large backgammon tournament, held at the Flamingo. I was HOPING Magriel would be there, if not to compete than at least hanging around.

Alas, I didn't seem him.

How did you do in the tourney?

Quote: EdCollins

Over the past four days, I competed in a large backgammon tournament, held at the Flamingo. I was HOPING Magriel would be there, if not to compete than at least hanging around.

Alas, I didn't seem him.

I'm friends with Paul. He gives private backgammon lessons. I'm sure his rates are very reasonable. I'd be happy to make an introduction if you're interested.

Ah, thanks for taking an interest.

I did okay, considering this was my very first backgammon tourney, ever!

I'm a tournament chess player, having played in 82 different chess tourneys in my life. Despite also loving the game of backgammon, surprisingly, I had never yet entered a backgammon tournament. But I just so happened to have this week off from work and I'm only a 4.5 hour drive away from Vegas, and I didn't have any other plans, so why not?

As you might imagine, the whole experience was new (and exciting) for me. There are a number of notable differences between chess and backgammon tourneys and it was fun to compare the two.

Anyway, I played a total of six matches. The end result is I won three matches and I lost three matches.

The first two matches were to 11 points, in "Main Flight." Once you lose in Main Flight, you cannot win this section anymore. You are then bumped over to "Consolation" and you play in this bracket. I won my first match in Main Flight but then lost the second match.

Talk about a rush! It's one thing to play backgammon against my brother for fun, or to play against a girlfriend for backrub minutes, or to play some of my friends for a dollar or two a point. It's another thing entirely to play in a tournament, for money, against a seasoned player! Love it, love it, love it!

So now I'm in Consolation and the result was the same. These matches are played to just 9 points. I won my first match but then lost my second. So now I'm bumped over to "Last Chance."

And again... a similar story. I won the first match in Last Chance, but then lost the second match. In Last Chance, matches are played to just 5 points. It was heartbreaking to lose this second match, because I jumped out to an early 4 to 2 lead, and I felt I was a stronger player than my opponent. Alas, she had some good rolls and beat me in the next two games, for a final match score of 5 to 4.

All of this was in the Intermediate Division. (73 players and 27 rebuys) I decided not to enter the Championship Division (93 players and 35 rebuys) since the entry fee was $300 more and I thought it best to get my feet wet with something less expensive.

Note that Akiko Yazawa, last year's World Champion, won this event last year and she won it AGAIN this year! Not only that, this year she also won the prestigious Super Jackpot tournament, consisting of 32 players each ponying up a $1,000 entry fee. (Actually, I think some of these players pay a $2,000 entry fee and are then bumped into the final 16. I'm still not sure exactly how that works.) Akiko won about $30,000 this year for winning these two events. She's an amazing player.

There are two large tourneys in Vegas every year, so I guess I will need to start planning my vacations on the weeks these tourneys are held. Already looking forward to the next one.

Quote: Wizard

I'm friends with Paul. He gives private backgammon lessons. I'm sure his rates are very reasonable. I'd be happy to make an introduction if you're interested.

I take it Paul lives in or near Las Vegas?

I might be interested for a half day session or so, the next time I'm in town. Thanks Mike.

Great report, Ed, and IMO a great result for your first tournament! It sounds like a very enjoyable event, especially since it's not one-and-done.

Quote: EdCollins

I take it Paul lives in or near Las Vegas?

I might be interested for a half day session or so, the next time I'm in town. Thanks Mike.

He does. Hangs out at the Palace Station a lot.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Great report, Ed, and IMO a great result for your first tournament! It sounds like a very enjoyable event, especially since it's not one-and-done.

Thanks. Yea, one-and-done wouldn't be very fun. (If you lost, of course.) But that's exactly what the Super Jackpot side event ($1,000 entry fee) and the Limited Jackpot side event ($500 entry fee) are. A single match and if you lose that match, you're out!


Above I mentioned above, I enjoyed seeing the differences between a chess tourney and a bg tourney. Here are five of them, that stood out for me, in no particular order.

(1) You can and often DO chat with your opponent, DURING your match! In chess tourneys this is simply not done. In chess tourneys, once play has started there is no talking at all, in the playing room, by anyone. Even whispering is frowned upon. After you game if you want to analyze it with your opponent, you do that in the skittles room.

I noticed with this bg tourney, there is a LOT talking going on in the playing room all the time, by players and spectators! One of my opponents even asked me after I rolled and made my play and then picked up my dice (to signify my play was complete) why I didn't choose an alternate move, that he considered better. You just don't see any of this at chess tourneys, of course. The TD is also often making frequent announcements all the time with his microphone ("I need one player right now who wants to play a two-point mini match."), etc.

(2) Clocks are not used. In a chess tourney, chess clocks are not only used, they are required. A typical chess game can last 3 to 5 hours... or more! For the Super Jackpot side event ($1,000 to enter the round of 32 and $2,000 to enter the round of 16!), it WAS a "clock-preferred" event and I did see a few players in this event using clocks. But not all of these matches had clocks and there were no clocks at all used at any other event.

(3) Moves are not recorded, at all, by anyone, in any division. That's just not done in backgammon and in chess tourneys it's also required. It would slow up the backgammon game too much, I suspect. Several players DID record their match with their own video camera, mounted on a tripod right next to the board. I could certain see myself doing this in the future, because right now I would LOVE to have a record of all of my games, to see all of my mistakes! (Today's backgammon software programs are very, VERY strong. The equivalent of Deep Blue, Stockfish, Komodo, etc., or better. With these software programs, in addition to playing games, you can, of course, set up any position and dice roll, click Analyze and within a few seconds know exactly what the best move for that position is. Today's backgammon software plays far better than any human.)

(4) There were no "cheap sets/boards." In most chess tourneys, the typical set used are those common, black and white plastic piece, vinyl roll-up board sets, that cost just $20 or so. You might suspect backgammon would have something equivalent. Maybe an easy-to-carry roll-up board with plastic checkers. Nope, not at all. Instead, just about everyone has their own, large, BEAUTIFUL, tournament-size board, costing many hundreds and even thousands of dollars!

The board I brought with me, a recent tournament-size board that I spent $265 on (on sale from $395), was probably on the LOW-end of the value scale, of the typical board I saw! I'm not kidding. It was entertaining just to walk up and down the rows of tables and look at all of the beautiful boards.

(5) There were no kids! None! A typical chess tourney, has lots of kids and teens entered. (And I'm not referring to the scholastic events.) The average age in the bg room was probably 40+! Maybe more! I also don't there there were any teenagers! In fact, if you were in your 20s I suspect you were in the minority! The Senior's Tournament, which started Wednesday, had more than 100 entrants. (Actually, now that I think about it, that number doesn't mean anything. With an low entry fee of $60, many of these entrants were certainly re-buys.)

I'm not sure this "40+ average age" is ideal, because this means when all of these old people are "too old" to play, backgammon tournament attendance might dwindle down to nothing.


There were other chess tourney vs. bg tourney differences, but these are the five that stood out to me.

fyi... Paul Magriel died yesterday. He was 71.

He will be missed.

Rest in peace.
Just read the thread. It sounds like he was a great guy. Someone who had the music in him.